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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 12:22:59 GMT
And sometimes communicating your needs actually rules out people as potential mates... but to try to shape-shift to accommodate is the very thing that kills our spirit in the end. It's bittersweet I know, but maybe this is a sign of incompatibility if you seem smothering to this person
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 0:15:37 GMT
Hi everyone. Again, very new to this stuff, and over the past few weeks I've sent some texts to the woman who's brought all this Anxious stuff out on me. We'd confessed an attraction toward one another, but she was in a relationship then. Now she's out. I obsess all the time. After a few hours on the phone where she talked about her sadness about her recent breakup and love for her ex, I told her I needed distance because I still wanted to be with her. It was one of my hallmark fumbling, trying to say every single one of my feelings, sorts of talks. That was 2 1/2 weeks ago. The next day, I tried to concisely put it in writing to her. The text read: - Me: Just so I'm sure I'm clear. I think all of this is a little less dramatic than I presented in my flustered state. So... it's tough to maintain a casual friendship with you right now, because underneath that there's a longing for something more. Something more = you and me in the same place, showing you my world, the people and places that inspire me, going about our separate days, having you to "come home" to, growing together. Plus kisses and cuddles. For both our sakes, I don't want to come at you with that energy, especially while you're heartbroken. So, I'm shifting to focusing on other parts of my life, moving that energy through, nudging it gently to move on. I'll probably contact you less. But will certainly check in sometimes. I'll add that if you ever think I can help you and you reach out with specific requests/questions I am here for you. It feels really good for me to support and care for you, if I can. It's just the casual in-between that's tricky for me right now. If, inside you, this wondering about me feels strong enough and right enough to pursue, reach out. We can co-create a plan that feels right.
- Her: All of that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying, and for not just cutting me out entirely. Any time you want to reach out, reach out. Hope it's okay if I text you every once in awhile too. All the best. May we heal our sad hearts.
About a week later, I saw she posted something online that made me suspect she'd met someone new. Just creating all KINDS of stories in my brain, feeling insane. I couldn't sleep. I thought, if only I could talk to her and ask her casually, then at least I'd know if that was true, so I reached out. She said "But I thought you were taking a break?" I tried to be casual, saying I felt better and it would be fine, but realized that was bullshit and texted her the next day: - Me: I'm so so sorry, but you're absolutely right. Talking tomorrow is not a good idea. I heard a song in a coffee shop and started crying, I think I would not be the jokey relief you're looking for. I'm not over it. I'm not over you. The thoughts, ideas, dreams of spending time together are very much alive. There are questions burning in me that I fear you don't have answers to, but knowing me, I'd want to ask anyway. That's not fair to either of us to drag you into those murky thoughts. So. I'll let go. Again. I have nothing but the deepest love for you, and I know you'll be okay. If you need me, I'm here. I'm here. Thank you for enduring this back-and-forth in me. Love always, dear one.
- Her: No worries at all. Thank you for looking out for yourself and me, truly. You sound like me, crying in coffee shops! I'm so sorry. Let me know whenever you're up for a call. I'm here too. All will be well <3
I guess I'd just like to know if, in your opinions, I was clear enough. What's your analysis of the way I handled this? My anxiety was through the roof, and my solution was distance. Good call?
I read your post multiple times and I see no "distance" in your words. I could've written her texts myself, wow.
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 30, 2018 1:09:23 GMT
Hi everyone. Again, very new to this stuff, and over the past few weeks I've sent some texts to the woman who's brought all this Anxious stuff out on me. We'd confessed an attraction toward one another, but she was in a relationship then. Now she's out. I obsess all the time. After a few hours on the phone where she talked about her sadness about her recent breakup and love for her ex, I told her I needed distance because I still wanted to be with her. It was one of my hallmark fumbling, trying to say every single one of my feelings, sorts of talks. That was 2 1/2 weeks ago. The next day, I tried to concisely put it in writing to her. The text read: - Me: Just so I'm sure I'm clear. I think all of this is a little less dramatic than I presented in my flustered state. So... it's tough to maintain a casual friendship with you right now, because underneath that there's a longing for something more. Something more = you and me in the same place, showing you my world, the people and places that inspire me, going about our separate days, having you to "come home" to, growing together. Plus kisses and cuddles. For both our sakes, I don't want to come at you with that energy, especially while you're heartbroken. So, I'm shifting to focusing on other parts of my life, moving that energy through, nudging it gently to move on. I'll probably contact you less. But will certainly check in sometimes. I'll add that if you ever think I can help you and you reach out with specific requests/questions I am here for you. It feels really good for me to support and care for you, if I can. It's just the casual in-between that's tricky for me right now. If, inside you, this wondering about me feels strong enough and right enough to pursue, reach out. We can co-create a plan that feels right.
- Her: All of that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying, and for not just cutting me out entirely. Any time you want to reach out, reach out. Hope it's okay if I text you every once in awhile too. All the best. May we heal our sad hearts.
About a week later, I saw she posted something online that made me suspect she'd met someone new. Just creating all KINDS of stories in my brain, feeling insane. I couldn't sleep. I thought, if only I could talk to her and ask her casually, then at least I'd know if that was true, so I reached out. She said "But I thought you were taking a break?" I tried to be casual, saying I felt better and it would be fine, but realized that was bullshit and texted her the next day: - Me: I'm so so sorry, but you're absolutely right. Talking tomorrow is not a good idea. I heard a song in a coffee shop and started crying, I think I would not be the jokey relief you're looking for. I'm not over it. I'm not over you. The thoughts, ideas, dreams of spending time together are very much alive. There are questions burning in me that I fear you don't have answers to, but knowing me, I'd want to ask anyway. That's not fair to either of us to drag you into those murky thoughts. So. I'll let go. Again. I have nothing but the deepest love for you, and I know you'll be okay. If you need me, I'm here. I'm here. Thank you for enduring this back-and-forth in me. Love always, dear one.
- Her: No worries at all. Thank you for looking out for yourself and me, truly. You sound like me, crying in coffee shops! I'm so sorry. Let me know whenever you're up for a call. I'm here too. All will be well <3
I guess I'd just like to know if, in your opinions, I was clear enough. What's your analysis of the way I handled this? My anxiety was through the roof, and my solution was distance. Good call?
I read your post multiple times and I see no "distance" in your words. I could've written her texts myself, wow. It is an AP's perspective of "distance"...distance is not a natural thing for an AP when we care for someone....so it comes out conflicted and washed down and hopeful while defeated. The door remains open because there is a desire that things will change.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 12:48:04 GMT
I read your post multiple times and I see no "distance" in your words. I could've written her texts myself, wow. It is an AP's perspective of "distance"...distance is not a natural thing for an AP when we care for someone....so it comes out conflicted and washed down and hopeful while defeated. The door remains open because there is a desire that things will change. Yes I have seen this many times with my ex. The different communication styles make the relationship all the more difficult. It always read to me that he was simultaneously trying to get close but pushing me away at the same time. It was very confusing for me. When I do distance, it's hurtful to the other person, but it's also very clear.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 12:54:25 GMT
to me this communication seems very manipulative, like some selling on the awesome relationship that's possible if i just turn around, and fishing for a response other than the one i have given. it seems disrespectful to me, to persist with it.
i get it. you want me super bad but i'm grieving. ok? ok.
GRIEVING.
that's got to be clear enough.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 14:23:24 GMT
to me this communication seems very manipulative, like some selling on the awesome relationship that's possible if i just turn around, and fishing for a response other than the one i have given. it seems disrespectful to me, to persist with it. i get it. you want me super bad but i'm grieving. ok? ok. GRIEVING. that's got to be clear enough. It's so interesting that what I saw as an AP's expression of their desire is experienced by you as a manipulative coaxing invitation. It says a lot to me about the lack of sturdiness of the boundaries between the two types that's picked up on by the more avoidant type, when they are hypervigilant to potential threats on their independence. The AP is just expressing a wish (albeit one that comes with an unconscious invitation) and an FA/DA doesn't have to reciprocate the wish (but they will unconsciously feel the weight of the invitation and maybe not trust the boundaries between them) - really interesting. It's like our unconscious desires and fears are dodging and negotiating all the time under the surface and it feels like some energetic stalemate
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 14:34:20 GMT
yes, to me this verbiage with all the detail about the fantasy future that cannot be realized is over the top. saying that one does not want to burden the other with that energy but going into detail with it seems so contradictory to me.
if it were more concise, without the detail and the talk about crying in the coffee shop, it would seem more well boundaried and a simple expression of a wish. but it just seems to lay a whole lot onto the recipient.
it seems like the OP is looking from some kind of comfort for their distress, from a person who is grieving the end of a relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 14:47:31 GMT
Over the top, maybe but it feels mostly like a natural expression of who an AP is when they are in activation. It's like the two types live in different realities when triggered around what is too much, and neither is closer to the middle. I don't see anything seriously wrong with OP's expression other than that the recipient doesn't seem capable or willing to reassure them in the way OP might want - that's a compatibility issue in my eyes. I think it was a display of healthy dependence and wearing their heart on their sleeve, and I felt like they were being transparent about what was going on for them, and it felt to me like an expression of emotional availability. It is the other person's responsibility to communicate whether this is beyond their comfort and to establish a boundary - it doesn't help that an activated AP system isn't going to be aware of what is an overshare to the other person, as well as being wired to keep seeking that reassurance if they aren't met with it. I know what you mean about laying a lot on the recipient, but it's the recipient's responsibility to communicate that so the grey area experienced by the person in fantasy isn't so grey anymore, because it's in the grey area and the withholding that the AP desire grows so much stronger, because we are just wired that way.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 14:57:19 GMT
Over the top, maybe but it feels mostly like a natural expression of who an AP is when they are in activation. It's like the two types live in different realities when triggered around what is too much, and neither is closer to the middle. I don't see anything seriously wrong with OP's expression other than that the recipient doesn't seem capable or willing to reassure them in the way OP might want - that's a compatibility issue in my eyes. I think it was a display of healthy dependence and wearing their heart on their sleeve, and I felt like they were being transparent about what was going on for them, and it felt to me like an expression of emotional availability. It is the other person's responsibility to communicate whether this is beyond their comfort and to establish a boundary - it doesn't help that an activated AP system isn't going to be aware of what is an overshare to the other person, as well as being wired to keep seeking that reassurance if they aren't met with it. I know what you mean about laying a lot on the recipient, but it's the recipient's responsibility to communicate that so the grey area experienced by the person in fantasy isn't so grey anymore, because it's in the grey area and the withholding that the AP desire grows so much stronger, because we are just wired that way. i see what you're saying, but the conversation that led to all this has the recipient (in a very very long conversation) expressing their deep sadness and love for their ex. then the recipient thanked OP for clarifying the intent to withdraw and hopefully they can both heal their broken hearts. this isn't typically considered an invitation to potential relationship, is it? it sounds more like... i'm in the space to be friendly and supportive but have nothing to offer at all but commiseration about grief. then the OP reached out again and the recipient said "i thought you were taking a break?" then another long declaration of longing. nobody is withholding clarity, casual reaching out is agreed upon- but in y mind the recipient made it very clear she is grieving and wants to mend her broken heart, and accepts the distance. in most healthy thinking, if one is not over the dissolution of a relationship it is no time to talk about a potential new one with someone pining for it. that's just my take. if she was not grieving and had come to terms with the dissolution, that's one thing- but she clearly isn't in that position and isn't withholding anything at all about that , that i can see.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 15:43:49 GMT
to me this communication seems very manipulative, like some selling on the awesome relationship that's possible if i just turn around, and fishing for a response other than the one i have given. it seems disrespectful to me, to persist with it. i get it. you want me super bad but i'm grieving. ok? ok. GRIEVING. that's got to be clear enough. It's so interesting that what I saw as an AP's expression of their desire is experienced by you as a manipulative coaxing invitation. It says a lot to me about the lack of sturdiness of the boundaries between the two types that's picked up on by the more avoidant type, when they are hypervigilant to potential threats on their independence. The AP is just expressing a wish (albeit one that comes with an unconscious invitation) and an FA/DA doesn't have to reciprocate the wish (but they will unconsciously feel the weight of the invitation and maybe not trust the boundaries between them) - really interesting. It's like our unconscious desires and fears are dodging and negotiating all the time under the surface and it feels like some energetic stalemate Yes, he is expressing a wish, but it's also a fishing expedition, while he knows she just broke up. It seemed clear to me that she is grieving her relationship, he sees something online and then asks about her taking a break, which is followed by another declaration of longing for her, with details. Whether she is DA or not, I see this as boundary pushing and insensitive to her needs at this time, not merely expressing a wish. Like juniper said, if she was not grieving a relationship, I may see it different. Edit to add: I think APs see that any threat to our independence is the threat. The real threat is someone that is insensitive to our needs and feelings. What you see is him expressing a wish. I see him putting his needs of expressing his longing and wanting to know if there is a possibility of a relationship over her need to grieve at this time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 16:04:26 GMT
It's so interesting that what I saw as an AP's expression of their desire is experienced by you as a manipulative coaxing invitation. It says a lot to me about the lack of sturdiness of the boundaries between the two types that's picked up on by the more avoidant type, when they are hypervigilant to potential threats on their independence. The AP is just expressing a wish (albeit one that comes with an unconscious invitation) and an FA/DA doesn't have to reciprocate the wish (but they will unconsciously feel the weight of the invitation and maybe not trust the boundaries between them) - really interesting. It's like our unconscious desires and fears are dodging and negotiating all the time under the surface and it feels like some energetic stalemate Yes, he is expressing a wish, but it's also a fishing expedition, while he knows she just broke up. It seemed clear to me that she is grieving her relationship, he sees something online and then asks about her taking a break, which is followed by another declaration of longing for her, with details. Whether she is DA or not, I see this as boundary pushing and insensitive to her needs at this time, not merely expressing a wish. Like juniper said, if she was not grieving a relationship, I may see it different. Edit to add: I think APs see that any threat to our independence is the threat. The real threat is someone that is insensitive to our needs and feelings. What you see is him expressing a wish. I see him putting his needs of expressing his longing and wanting to know if there is a possibility of a relationship over her need to grieve at this time. amen mary!!! this isn't about independence. it's about emotional needs! the clearly stated need to grieve. yes he is clearly putting his need to express longing and fake distance which he doesn't really respect (by monitoring and wanting to question her about her online activity) , by trying to pretend everything is cool but that's bullshit by his own admission- he's flip flapping and not respecting her stated need to grieve. it's up to him to put himself in check here. i get that is what he is trying to do with this post, and he asked for analysis so this is as helpful as i can be. the activation here is toxic, in my opinion, and just needs to be checked somehow without involving her further about this AP longing.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 30, 2018 16:23:05 GMT
I agree with juniper here. You did and said what you did, and that's okay. But if you're really looking to break the cycle and feel better at a deep level, you're going to get more use out of your other AP thread Finding peace with Myself and Her than ruminating over your exact word choices. You've both stated what you want and did what can be done, so the nicest thing you can do for yourself now is shift the focus back to yourself. It feels like it's about her, and I know you care for her, but the rumination you're going through right now isn't about her. It's most respectful for you both if you let her grieve and mind your side of things. If that's not enough, consider this. You're kind of mourning her right now, right? How would it make you feel to keep getting back and forth messages from another woman who was very interested in you while you needed some time and space, and possibly just simple friendship?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 16:26:49 GMT
juniper & @mary, I hadn't given myself a full picture of the context before I wrote (which was criminal) - and in hindsight, I actually agree with you both that this does feel invasive. I feel like I was blinding myself with the "goodness" of being transparent, not noticing that this does feel like boundary busting behaviour
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Post by alexandra on Oct 30, 2018 16:27:20 GMT
Edit to add: I think APs see that any threat to our independence is the threat. The real threat is someone that is insensitive to our needs and feelings. What you see is him expressing a wish. I see him putting his needs of expressing his longing and wanting to know if there is a possibility of a relationship over her need to grieve at this time. This is also a very good point. When my FA ex dumped me the first time, he did this weird thing where he both DA deactivated but at the same time went full on AP (about us being friends) even though I told him I was devastated and needed space. He didn't respect it at all for a few months and I ended up blocking him for almost a year as a result. I am low avoidance and loved him, but couldn't deal with him putting his need to not feel abandoned by me (even though he was dumping me) over my need to sort myself out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 16:40:45 GMT
Edit to add: I think APs see that any threat to our independence is the threat. The real threat is someone that is insensitive to our needs and feelings. What you see is him expressing a wish. I see him putting his needs of expressing his longing and wanting to know if there is a possibility of a relationship over her need to grieve at this time. This is also a very good point. When my FA ex dumped me the first time, he did this weird thing where he both DA deactivated but at the same time went full on AP (about us being friends) even though I told him I was devastated and needed space. He didn't respect it at all for a few months and I ended up blocking him for almost a year as a result. I am low avoidance and loved him, but couldn't deal with him putting his need to not feel abandoned by me (even though he was dumping me) over my need to sort myself out. I think part of the AP/DA dance is that APs are good at seeing their own needs but not the needs of others and the vice versa for the DA. When the DA says "I can't give you what you need", that's real. What we don't see is that the AP can't give the DA what they need either.
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