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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 15:01:27 GMT
Can anyone else relate to this:
This is totally me. I mean, word for word. It feels very real because the persona is interwoven with bits of truth, but the way I portray it is totally an act. I had myself fooled along with everyone else. It's a coping mechanism so I am not abandoned and left in the dust.
And then there's this:
True again.
Besides that, for the longest time I would project onto others, calling them frauds and liars... and even if I was right about them, one of the biggest frauds and liars in the room is me.
Unmasking is painful. But I find that although some people may not really like me, it's okay.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 15:58:54 GMT
This is just so accurate to me too... I always worked so hard to come across as creative, witty, sexy and interesting. It was like a god damn vocation trying to be so entertaining, trying to be "the cool girl", and it worked. There weren't many times in my life where I couldn't manipulate someone I really liked into wanting me back when I set my sights on them, but the degree to which I manipulated was truly not conscious to me even if I did it consciously... if that makes sense. I didn't realise I had a false self, because I was never introduced to my true self growing up, it was never inquired into what my preferences were, what my emotions meant about the situation at hand. I grew up with the implicit messages:
You are the funny one, you are the mascot. We need you to do this. Shut up and make it work. Accommodate me because that is love, and your needs make you selfish. What makes you interesting is what makes you valuable.
So now, when I find people who want me to hustle for their attention, part of me loves that game because I learned to be so good at it. I learned how to charm as a survival mechanism and I see that now.
I am a lot more authentic and genuine now, and I see that actually, I'm boring, and I'm normal and no one can wrestle my worth from me because it finally does not feel negotiable, but there is still always that itch to want to mould myself into "the cool girl" because I know that it is one of the most enchanting tools of manipulation we learned, and it's SAFER than being the real me. Imperfect, boring me. Humanly fallible me. Risking rejection, and worse, accepting a rejection.
The last guy I was speaking to was also like this - very fantastical and witty. I stopped talking to him because for the second time in my life I recognised it for what it was: he was hustling for worth and trying to charm me into falling for him, he also seemed commitment phobic and couldn't have a real-world conversation. He had to live in fantasy. That used to be me... It was such a colourful place to live from and I sometimes miss the creativity involved, and the fun of the game in operating from my false self.
The guy before that and I used to wax lyrical about our shared interests, and we had so much to say about the literature we both loved, and both had that really gross "we're so smart" scoffing attitude that bound us together... we aren't that smart, we're basic at best, we were just trying so hard to impress each other, and for what? We used it to hide from knowing each other intimately.
The healthy ones cut out the middle man, and they are automatically worthy, we created this hustle game with each other to win each other's approval... for what?
The other implicit message was from my dad: I care more about what you're reading than how you're feeling.
My Dad and I also use "I'm so smart" conversations to hide from the vulnerability of intimacy, and he taught me that that is what chemistry feels like. I'm trying to unteach myself.
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Post by epicgum on Nov 2, 2018 16:41:03 GMT
Yes. This is me.
I think its exacerbated by our modern age, be your own hip/exciting "brand" that can entice others on the "mating marketplace" yay!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 16:45:37 GMT
Yes. This is me. I think its exacerbated by our modern age, be your own hip/exciting "brand" that can entice others on the "mating marketplace" yay! Bingo. |
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Post by mrob on Nov 2, 2018 17:34:51 GMT
The ego. Recognising this can be the beginning of real change.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 17:45:47 GMT
do you ever feel like that person you were as a kid just enjoying your friends, or the smell of grass, or petting an animal?
it's so pure, when you can just experience yourself and what's around you.
growing up in my little world i have so many memories of just being THERE.
not with people, just with myself and my world.
smells and sights and sounds and textures.
i feel like i carry that with me wherever i go.
i'm not saying i've never been trapped in a persona.
but it isn't my most familiar feeling. maybe it was at some point. i don't recall.
right underneath anything fake is who you really are, and i find it's so easy to just get there if you just stop thinking and start breathing and looking around being curious about what or who is beside you.
is this not so easy for FA? i'm not trying to be obtuse.
but is it hard to feel at home in yourself?
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Post by alexandra on Nov 2, 2018 17:59:57 GMT
Yes, I believe that's a common FA thing. Wanted to chime in with a snippet from another thread from a couple months ago where this came up. jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1321/ap-partner-values?page=1This was one on my relevant replies based on my experiences with FAs, though may not apply to everyone: My understanding of this for FA is, at some point in their lives, their needs were not only met inconsistently if at all, but there appeared to be no rhyme or reason to it. Disorganized. The child could not find patterns of behavior that worked to influence the outcome and as a result felt they must be terrible and unworthy of having needs met (low opinion of self) and eventually scared of the unpredictable responses of the adult caretaker that they still had to rely on and wanted to attach to (low opinion of others, can't trust their intentions). The nervous system ends up being negatively activated if the attachment figure gets too close (pain from the caretaker being in their space but not meeting their needs) or too far (anxiety because the child has no confidence in their ability to meet their own needs). As a result, and since there was no positivity to build on, the child might reject themselves and build a people-pleasing persona to get attention and to survive, because they're scared that their "real" selves are not good enough and inevitably are going to be rejected. The projected personality both has aspects that seem to get them a more positive response from others, which is validating (the more you idealize your partner, the better the validation like with AP -- validation you don't know how to give yourself), and saves them from feeling rejection of their TRUE self, if rejection happens. But underneath that people pleasing persona is still a lot of distrust, so a distancing behavior to fully protect the FA as an adult might be to nitpick and question their partner. The FA still believes the partner could abandon them at any moment like happened in their childhood, which is frightening. In addition, all these subconscious layers make the FA disconnected from understanding their true feelings and motivations behind actions, so there may be a feeling of chronic dissatisfaction that they don't understand at all. Sometimes, blame for those misunderstood feelings can land on the romantic partner even when they have nothing to do with it, which breeds resentment and more devaluing. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 18:26:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 22:19:57 GMT
is this not so easy for FA? i'm not trying to be obtuse. but is it hard to feel at home in yourself? Pretty easy when by myself. Pretty easy around people I've known for a long time. But this survival mechanism carries over every new environment and relationship for me and it's been the hardest to reverse because in my mind "it's never safe". The moment I'm able to enter a new situation as more or less myself, that's how I know I've made tremendous progress. alexandra sounds pretty accurate. I'd say what you describe is like a stalemate. "No matter what I do, the result is always the same" and "there are no other moves." Or a checkmate even, because of the pain involved. You've got the inner critic and the outer critic. Distrust in yourself and others. Stuck. I wonder what the connection between disorganized attachment and CPTSD (complex PTSD) is. They are oddly similar. ---- As an after thought: so if an FA greatly reduces their anxiety, do they just turn into a DA? Seems like it... |
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Post by mrob on Nov 3, 2018 3:40:14 GMT
As a kid, I was on the outside looking in. I had no idea of how social structures worked, and was extremely sad and perplexed as to why other kids didn’t like me. This went on into adolescence, girls wouldn’t even look at me. I remember being told “Be yourself”. Problem was that I’d been doing that my whole life and it had failed. What was I to do?
I had to change. I was 18, doing my apprenticeship and having trouble when an older tradesman (all of 25) said “mrob, you need to grow a thick skin, and not react to people”. I’d been told “just ignore them” forever, but this was a turning point. I had to change, or be swamped by every bit of emotion, and continue to be ridiculed and have an overall tough time with life. So, change I did. I used alcohol to take that growth shortcut, and that had a limited shelf life. In that time, though, I got married to the first woman that would, and had no idea of how to have a relationship. I exposed myself as much as I could. Of course, that didn't go too well and I found myself divorced, a drunk, very hurt and vowing that nobody will ever make me feel like that again.
I had to find out who on Earth I was and what the hell was going on. I got honest, and did some work, but I still couldn't get it together. After another marriage, a divorce, finding attachment theory, another relationship where it played out really loudly, *sigh* when will I stop the damage?
It's like peeling layers of an onion, and I'm grateful for this piece of the puzzle.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 14:25:40 GMT
As a kid, I was on the outside looking in. I had no idea of how social structures worked, and was extremely sad and perplexed as to why other kids didn’t like me. This went on into adolescence, girls wouldn’t even look at me. I remember being told “Be yourself”. Problem was that I’d been doing that my whole life and it had failed. What was I to do? I had to change. I was 18, doing my apprenticeship and having trouble when an older tradesman (all of 25) said “mrob, you need to grow a thick skin, and not react to people”. I’d been told “just ignore them” forever, but this was a turning point. I had to change, or be swamped by every bit of emotion, and continue to be ridiculed and have an overall tough time with life. So, change I did. I used alcohol to take that growth shortcut, and that had a limited shelf life. In that time, though, I got married to the first woman that would, and had no idea of how to have a relationship. I exposed myself as much as I could. Of course, that didn't go too well and I found myself divorced, a drunk, very hurt and vowing that nobody will ever make me feel like that again. I had to find out who on Earth I was and what the hell was going on. I got honest, and did some work, but I still couldn't get it together. After another marriage, a divorce, finding attachment theory, another relationship where it played out really loudly, *sigh* when will I stop the damage? It's like peeling layers of an onion, and I'm grateful for this piece of the puzzle. i'm so glad you're here mrob. ♥️ |
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Post by epicgum on Nov 5, 2018 13:23:32 GMT
The ego. Recognising this can be the beginning of real change. Can you elaborate on this mrob? |
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Post by hannah on Nov 6, 2018 12:21:13 GMT
I can also relate to the "showing a false self" thing but in my case I have always more or less known who am I. Problem is that I have some eccentric points of view about life and some tastes that never match with people from my circle. After being view like the weird one at school or by my family, feeling misundertood, I naturally stopped sharing my inner self with everybody. (But now I'm ok with that and happy cause I'm speding more time with weird people haha but old habits die hard and I'm still suspicious and guarded around them). Yes. This is me. I think its exacerbated by our modern age, be your own hip/exciting "brand" that can entice others on the "mating marketplace" yay! So your false self is an exciting one? Cause mine is just boring! In my case, showing a false self means not expressing what I really think/feel and avoiding conflict. It's more about silence, I think I didn't replace the true self by a false self if this makes any sense. I'm the shy girl on the corner of the room and I'm often frustrated of not being capable to share my thoughts specially when it comes to things that are important to me, cause with my silence I kind of agree with other's point of view. I totally agree with alexandra about showing a false self to keep us safe "from feeling rejection of their TRUE self, if rejection happens". It feels less like a rejection if I think "ok, they don't really like me but how could they like me if they don't know me anyway?". The worst is that people who finally know me tell me things like "it took longtime to know you but it was worth it". So, there is that part of not trusting others but my self-sabotage is also about not trusting me and my abilities and knowledge. I haven't try so many things I would like to due to a lack of trust in myself, specially when social skills are required. And it's worst as time pass cause I will tell myself "it could be understanble 10 years ago to not know how to do that but now you're 30 years old, no excuses" and I feel like the gap is bigger and bigger. I think part of the problem to me is also that I have this kind of romantic mindset when it comes to encounteurs, I mean, I have this idea of an instantaneous chemistry between new lovers or new friends so each encounter is lived like a big court session. But with lots of observation now I'm seeing that it's rarely the case, that relationships are all about constant work and consistence and slowly getting to know someone (thanks to this forum too). |
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Post by 8675309 on Nov 6, 2018 13:59:53 GMT
All types tend to put on their best 'outfit' in front of others, its not just an avoidant thing, its a people thing. Now there is the best outfit and being totally fake. I just cant be fake, its takes so much work and when the mask comes off now you're a liar. If people dont like who I am, its their issue not mine, Im cool not a serial killer! haha. And the truth always comes out so be who you are and own it. Life is too short to fake it. People that dont like it can bugger off. Even as a secure type owning who I am did come with age, I was more insecure about who liked me ect in my younger years. It was just those normal insecurities because I was young and no life experience yet. It takes time to grow into who you are. It wasn't about attachment it was about my own insecurities. It was still hard to try to be 'fake' though even with those insecurities back then. I hope you all can get to this place of owning it and feel good about owning who you are.  Its liberating and so freeing. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 5:25:52 GMT
...As an after thought: so if an FA greatly reduces their anxiety, do they just turn into a DA? Seems like it...What makes you think this ? Math. FA = negative view of self (the AP aspect) + negative view of others (the DA aspect) FA - some anxiety (AP) = more avoidant (DA) Meaning you think better of yourself, but still distrust others. This is DA, not secure. I took the test just now (with the anxiety and avoidance axes), I've just entered the DA quadrant. Although, I don't think a recovering FA (mostly in terms of anxiety) would be a total DA, they'd be a more aware one. So skirting the boundaries, more like. I can also relate to the "showing a false self" thing but in my case I have always more or less known who am I. Problem is that I have some eccentric points of view about life and some tastes that never match with people from my circle. After being view like the weird one at school or by my family, feeling misundertood, I naturally stopped sharing my inner self with everybody. (But now I'm ok with that and happy cause I'm speding more time with weird people haha but old habits die hard and I'm still suspicious and guarded around them). This also exacerbates my problem as well. But instead of eccentric POVs, for me it's my personality and values. Wildly different from those around me. Got criticized constantly for literally not bothering anyone, just being different. My family is very traditional/conservative, so I stood out like a sore thumb. I always knew myself, but I was deeply ashamed because of the messages I received growing up. I hated myself and I hated other people. I'm glad you mentioned chemistry. Something really interesting that I found on a blog about chemistry that really helped me understand it (I bolded the most important bits): At the very least, it explains why I have chemistry with a DA guy. When either one of us is closed off or has their guard up, it's only one-sided attraction. When both of us are closed off, we repel each other. When we let our guard down, there is strong chemistry. But some of our ignition points are fucked up, so that doesn't mean the chemistry is built on something good. Some of my ignition points: 1) when someone who's normally stoic opens up because of me (this is an unhealthy ignition point and it's all because my dad is emotionally unavailable), 2) when someone is kind to me (this is a good one and only thanks to my recovery, but can be questionable if I'm seeking validation in order to feel worthy of kindness rather than just knowing I am) Some of what I suspect to be his ignition points: 1) When I can meet his needs without him saying anything (he totally loves this but I stopped doing it recently), 2) When he gets an ego boost (I rarely provide this for him, but when I do, the boost is HUGE for him) With an AP it would be much easier for him. They'll hit each others bad ignition points easily and the relationship would flow, even if it's all wrong and the dynamic is unhealthy. But since I'm FA, it's a hit sometimes, and a miss other times, for both of us. All types tend to put on their best 'outfit' in front of others, its not just an avoidant thing, its a people thing. Now there is the best outfit and being totally fake. I just cant be fake, its takes so much work and when the mask comes off now you're a liar. If people dont like who I am, its their issue not mine, Im cool not a serial killer! haha. And the truth always comes out so be who you are and own it. Life is too short to fake it. People that dont like it can bugger off. Even as a secure type owning who I am did come with age, I was more insecure about who liked me ect in my younger years. It was just those normal insecurities because I was young and no life experience yet. It takes time to grow into who you are. It wasn't about attachment it was about my own insecurities. It was still hard to try to be 'fake' though even with those insecurities back then. I hope you all can get to this place of owning it and feel good about owning who you are. Its liberating and so freeing. I think it's never really only attachment style, but that attachment style is necessarily intertwined with our insecurities. I assume secures grow out of it like many teenagers do. The rest of us will be trapped by them along with our attachment style, it's like untangling a tight and painful ball of string. I.e. becoming less insecure is much slower because it is complicated by attachment and other factors. I feel like I'm progressing so fast because there are just THAT many things I have to work on, so I'm untangling quite a lot. Objectively speaking though, when you compare where I am to where I should be, progress is glacial. |
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Its liberating and so freeing.