I'm so fake.

I don't think so. It's an issue of not being ready (or not being willing) to grow. Even after this type of deactivation, the three examples I have in mind fought to keep me in their life in some more limited capacity afterwards and still talk to me even after many years. And after all the years, none have shown themselves ready for a secure romantic commitment with anyone. They weren't ready to go deep enough within themselves to allow a more healthy dynamic to develop. They're stuck in repetition patterns no matter what I do.

The FA ex I have written most about here, who has hurt me the most by far, has told me and others that our emotional connection is unbelievable and I was his longest relationship (on and off for 3 years). He has said he's not been able to emotionally connect like that with another woman since our first breakup. I have also referred to it before as like glue. I went from AP to earned secure over that time and changed a lot which gave us the room and opportunity to reframe our unhealthy ignition points (and did on my side). Our communication improved, his physical attraction waxed and waned seemingly disconnected from either our emotional closeness or really from me at all, our connection did continue to be like super glue, but he eventually threw up his hands and said I am an amazing partner to him but he's only attracted to terrible partners (which sounds like he means extreme DAs) and that's that because the work it would take to understand himself and feel consistent physical attraction to me again was too daunting. Yes, he said all this to me. I interpreted this as, his second biggest fear was losing me, while his biggest is facing his issues. He has done everything he can to shove me away and actively disconnect ever since (while still keeping communication lines a little open), and I had no choice but to tell him how I felt and then let him leave me behind.

Though in the long-run if he stays stuck, I'm actually leaving him behind.

And as I said in my last comment, I used to have that same pattern of confusing love with intense sexual attraction / passion (when it was actually a form of overwhelming anxiety). Doing that made me miserable, but I also wasn't ever willing to just throw my hands up about it. I questioned it, looked at it with curiosity, delved into what was going on, and eventually changed it. I can't imagine walking away from a solid partner who shares my life goals and who I can share that connection and depth of friendship with. What a rare thing, and for some people, what a frightening thing that you fight against if you're not ready for the inevitable dependencies and vulnerability that will create.

alexandra thank you for sharing that. It sounds like he's put you through a lot of pain. I understand what you mean now, I was going off on the belief that "if it was a strong connection then the other party would find a way to stay" (which is true within certain contexts) but I can see how this is false in the case where one partner is outgrowing the other, and the other is then faced with a dilemma: should they do the work which is even MORE daunting now that they have to play catch-up (it's always better for people to work on themselves at their own pace rather than feel pressured because they might lose someone, which btw... no matter how little pressure + expectations one might put on another, the fact remains that one is ahead emotionally, and the other KNOWS this, which is pressure in itself) or should they just stop? It is rare that both people can keep up with each other's progress equally enough to not cause major issues.

However...

When you say "I had no choice but to tell him how I felt and then let him leave me behind", it seems to me that if you were letting him leave you behind, then the unhealthy dynamic was still there, although calmer than it was. That is, as a recovering AP the relationship was hinging upon his decision rather than you choosing to focus on yourself and move on despite what he may be feeling.

I think with DAs especially and to a good extent FAs as well, putting your foot down works WONDERS. And that doesn't include "I'll let you leave me behind" but more "I'm quite literally leaving you behind, do whatever you want." And repeatedly choosing to do this if/when they come back, not so you can keep them coming back but so you can solidify your own sense of self and remain centered. That, counter intuitively, "forces" them to heal faster.

Only then could you reach ground zero with the person, almost like you're starting over and getting to know each other from the beginning. Hard when there's history you obviously can't forget, but unhealthy relationships are in The Underworld, IMO. If you can get to the baseline with the other person, there's a better chance it will turn out well for the both of you. It's just an idea/prediction of mine, I have yet to experience it to confirm but my current dynamic seems to be unfolding this way so far.

Could be I misinterpreted what you wrote and assumed things that aren't there. I apologize if I crossed any lines (please tell me if so), I say all of this with respect and I question a lot because I learn from you.


!!!!!!!!!!!

I've heard this so many times but I never truly understood how attraction can be anxiety. I can see it now! And it totally is, not entirely... I think I can tell the difference now between the times I was truly attracted, and the times it was anxiety and I mistook it for intense passion.

Oh my god....


What a good question. Now that I think about it, it's not an either-or, but that I was being fake BECAUSE I didn't know who I was at the time.

But more correctly, and with more nuance: I was being fake because although I know who I am, I cannot present my true self in a way that intuitively feels "right" in the sense that I have boundaries in all the right places and allow moments of true vulnerability when needed. As an FA, I have rigid boundaries in the wrong places and loose ones in the right places. I hate being vulnerable and am guilty of creating tons of false intimacy that I mistake for the real thing.

The fakeness is still me because it's made of real traits of mine that I selectively amplify while I suppress what I think are the darker traits, such as my needs, my true opinions, my preferences, etc.

It's both conscious and subconscious. So in short: I know on some level (not a very deep level) that I'm being inauthentic, but I know it more deeply in hindsight.

Thank you both for your insight and questions.

Thanks for your response, @blacksnow . Don't worry, I don't feel like any lines are being crossed. We're all learning and sharing and trying to heal! My bigger concern was we're diverging off topic.

Yes, of course you're right that the unhealthy dynamic is still there because of the unequal footing. I know that him + me = still cumulatively over 50% insecure, so this isn't surprising. But I also think there's some semantics in the way. We may even be saying something more similar than you think. Let me see if I can explain it adequately, because it's a little muddled in my head.

I am letting him leave me behind: it's not what I ever wanted, and if he wanted to really work through it with me and I was still available, I'd try (there are new circumstances in my life that have flipped over parts of this that used to be dealbreakers for me and sincerely no longer are). So I've communicated what I want and asked for it and he makes the decision that he feels is best for himself based on that information. It doesn't mean I'm waiting for him or expecting anything from him or not moving on or blaming myself and thinking I don't deserve a fully balanced relationship or that he's the only partner for me in the world, even if it's not worded in a more empowering way. But, what's important about it to me is, when I was AP, I knew him so well but I didn't inherently understand him, or FA, or attachment theory, and the layers of my own attachment injury didn't allow me to accept him exactly where he was at (fantasy bonding, getting attached to potential without getting deep enough because of mutual insecure attachment fears). Since earning secure, I've been able to accept both of us for who we are and accept him for him, all the good and bad things whether they ever change or not, and when I was AP I couldn't do that. I couldn't accept when he started deactivating because I still needed validation that I couldn't provide myself, and my fear of abandonment was easily triggered. So my semantic choice of letting him leave is related to accepting him where he's at and doing so with deep love, even if I wish things could be different. It also doesn't mean that in the space he's created distance and left that I am not going to follow suit in my own direction, which will make me unavailable if he ever did change his mind later on.

Maybe another way to put it, it's my recognition that he's making the decision he needs to make for where he's at, which I have a lot of reason to believe doesn't even have anything to do with me personally. And that I'll focus on myself in order to make the best of wherever that leaves us (which, at this point, I assume has been over and done with). Because I can take care of myself no matter what he does. But it's still been a painful process where one of the deepest emotional connections I've ever experienced has been suddenly severed after years, and I feel left behind in his life even if I'm further ahead on the independent emotional healing journey -- yet I can acknowledge that even if that sounds like he's abandoning me, so to speak, I'm not abandoning myself too. That feels more honest to me than "I left because he's not giving me what I need." I asked him for what I needed and he didn't respond, so I accepted him and had to give myself what I need instead in order to let go.

I agree with what you're saying about if you draw strong boundaries for avoidants, they are more likely to step up. But in my experience with FAs, if they haven't started healing then that's only true when they're triggered AP, and it's just contributing to the unhealthy dynamic. The boundaries are still good to have, as you're saying, for the other person to protect themselves, but none of it is effective in changing the relationship dynamic until the insecure person is good and ready to do that on their own.

I also don't want him to try to change or journey for me. I want him to heal one day, and that's because I love him and know he's unhappy yet doesn't know why. He and I have discussed that he feels that way at length. People-pleasing and not understanding yourself, in my opinion, is most tied to the inability to trust yourself or anyone else (to summarize my long initial comment on how a false-self may evolve), and that's just an exhausting way to live. Between my relating to the misery that can be caused by the chasing sparks when it's an insecure pattern issue (at worst, leading to AP/DA or FA dances) and how much better I feel now understanding that about myself, and experiencing how much more stable, grounded, and trusting you can be after healing insecure attachment, I just want everyone to feel better and stop the cycle of hurt and hurting others

Yes, starting over at ground zero would be a welcome change when there is a muddled past with a partner. Putting one’s foot down to a DA I tend to think will make them dismiss you. Of course continuing on an unhealthy path won’t bring about change either but I never saw making a demand to a DA as motivating change. I think this would be received as very threatening and critical- you don’t?

alexandra okay that makes a lot of sense. You did what you had to do for yourself, and he did what he had to do for himself. In the end, it was a mismatch because you're at different places. I think you showed a lot of maturity and security in the way you handled it. I was looking at it through the lens of "I will not give you more than what you give me" (it's a principle I live by, whether it's a good/effective one is to be determined but it has served me well so far...) instead of the way your situation transpired where you made him an offer that he didn't want, or that he couldn't take.

Also, I don't know if going off topic is against the rules, like we are doing here, but I think that doing so is very helpful because everything we talk about is connected. Creating a new thread on every little thing is just another way to compartmentalize.



Correct.

But what if the manner in which you set the boundary is what makes an insecure person ready? Because, if we go off on the idea that no one's an island, and that we change because we are receiving some sort of input from others and our surroundings, then there has to be a way to output the message in just the right way that the other person will absorb it deeply enough to try something different.

I've experimented with this and gotten good results. You'd have to be really good at detecting the level they're at, and set boundaries in a way that has them step up little by little, and then when they've made enough improvement, they're ready for the bigger boundaries. Know what I mean? It's kinda like training a dog to be honest, HAHAHAHAH. But of course, you probably don't want to be an adult's therapist. For me, I find it fun because I get to learn about other people and psychology in general. Additionally, I wouldn't try it if there wasn't a "coincidence of needs" so to speak. That is to say... it's a challenge for me as well to set a certain boundary with this specific person. And I want to see if I can do it so I've worked on my own weaknesses. Essentially, I kill two birds with one stone: I grow and the other person grows with me as a result. Jokes on them: my needs are still my primary motivator.

In other words, I'm kind of a masochist. But for good reason. Pushing the boundaries of a system (that system could be a person... people are complex systems) just enough, gets me closer and closer to discoveries about people that help ME. "How much knowledge and personal growth can I squeeze out of this situation?"... past a threshold, it's enough.


My public persona feels wrong to the point it hurts me because I'm suppressing (and repressing) myself a lot more than I need to. I act like I'm friends with everyone, my filtering system is all wrong, and the traits I 'select' for this facade is the one that pleases people and ignores negative feelings. I get genuinely confused about my intentions and what I actually feel. I'm on survival mode.



Depends on how you do it and the current status of the relationship, see what I wrote above to alexandra about setting boundaries. I will also add that there's a difference between giving someone an ultimatum (bad... the DA will most likely run) and nonchalantly going "nah, that doesn't work for me because of [this] and [that]" as you continue being their friend. lol



Both.

Overwhelmed on the instinctive level during a particularly triggering intimate moment.

Overwhelmed when people get too close, followed by a need to hide, isolate, or avoid.



Good question. I wonder too. Because the avoidance is there due to fear. The fear is stuffed way down, but that is what the avoidance is masking.

My guess is that the fear in FAs is a lot more prominent and easy to feel/spot. In DAs not so much, it would require them to be triggered on a deeper level.

Thanks for saying it sounded mature and secure. I was trying my best to exercise my newish secure muscles by communicating directly from a neutral place, and I'm satisfied with how it came out.

Going off topic isn't against the rules, I just didn't want to hijack your thread.

"I will not give you more than you give me" (or feeling bad about it if I did) was an insecure AP thought pattern of mine. Fear and shame around any perceived relationship imbalance, and this feeling happened reasonably often because I was always dating other insecures. It's good if it's a boundary to keep from losing yourself. In my opinion, it's bad if it's due to excessive mistrust of others / fear / unsubstantiated fear of being taken advantage of. Now I see that, in a healthy relationship, there's often times where one person isn't at 100% and the other may have to pick up some slack. That's not the same as one person always giving too much either because they're trying to overcompensate for something the other person lacks or chooses not to give or because they're trying to give something the other person doesn't want (for example, saying that they'd want to hear themselves without being able to consider the other person may have different needs or a different love language).

I understand what you're saying about "training" someone, but this only works if the person is already amenable to it. You can't control where the person is at, and I don't believe you can make another insecure person ready with good boundaries if they're not already on that path. Specifically, I believe this because you're not fixing one of the cores of the insecure attachment problem, which is removing their conditioning to be triggered in either direction and primarily acting from that triggered place. Only they can learn to recondition their nervous system. You can lead by example and if they're ready to, they'll step up. If they're not, they may file it away and use it a long time later once they are ready to face their issues and are looking for strong examples in their experience.

I'm pretty good at sensing where someone is at, but it usually doesn't matter. Because, also to your point, being an adult therapist for a significant other is bad and can get really codependent or triggering really quickly. However, if it's working for you to learn about yourself, and it's not hurting the other person, then different people have different learning styles and whatever works!