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Anger
Nov 5, 2018 0:55:32 GMT
Post by boomerang on Nov 5, 2018 0:55:32 GMT
You know, one thing I feel doesn't get a lot of discussion on here is anger and the legitimacy of anger. I think we should talk about it.
We all have learned that attachment wounds govern our emotional interactions and everyone pretty much is here because they are or have been in pain, consequently. We also come here and learn how we cause it. As AP, you cause pain by your demands. As DA, you cause pain by your deactivation. As FA, you cause pain by your inconsistency. All this, in any form, is trying to get one's needs met. It is foundational to understand this.
But, I don't know that I subscribe to the broad idea that consequently, no one is the bad guy, everyone is doing the best they can, and that it's just the dysfunctional nature of the interaction. Don't misunderstand--I don't discount the well-documented toxic interaction patterns and how those play out for any two people with attachment wounds. But, there is a whole world of APs, DAs, and FAs and a full range of actions any one individual takes from within their attachment styles.
When people discuss relationships outside the world of this forum, they often see things quite clearly in the context of all the relationships they have known and observed. Good behavior/bad behavior. Is there kindness. Is there honesty. Is there apology. Is there fidelity. Is there respect.
Would any of us say that AP/DA/FA attachment styles de facto preclude that in emotional relationships? One step further: Would we say that only aware APs/DAs/FAs are capable of these things? That something like a third of the world population is not able to deliver these things in a relationship, unless with a secure? When I step outside trying to understand the dynamics of my own recent relationship and think about the relationships of others I know, that is simply not what I see. I see a range. I see examples of good behavior and bad behavior in all attachment styles.
So, this brings me to the question of when do we hold the partner accountable, instead of simply understanding everything in the context of attachment. Or more specifically, where do we draw the line, in viewing ourselves and our partners, between "I understand that I/my partner emotionally reacted so [was clingy/withdrew/ran away]" and assigning responsibility to ourselves/our partners for good or bad behavior, choices made in how one person treats the other, simply put. What's the role of ethics here? And anger, when behavior is unkind, dishonest, disrespectful, etc.
I think sometimes we excuse too much in the quest to understand our wounds/role and our partner's wounds/role in the breakdown of a relationship in the context of our attachment styles. "Everything is understandable" does not equal "No one did wrong".
Sometimes, people do behave badly, full stop. We all make choices. There is willfulness in what we do, as well as reaction. I need to own what I do and how that impacts my partner, but also, when my partner does not do this, I think anger is a fully justifiable reaction.
This whole train of thought arises because I woke up really angry today. I have spent many months on this attachment discovery journey moving from my initial blaming him--to blaming myself--to understanding the role each of us played. This morning, I found myself trying to reason away the anger, as if he was some sort of victim of me/his attachment style and had no choice in how he chose to handle finally ending our relationship this summer. No. I know him, him knows me. There were a myriad of ways he could have handled even within the range of our respective attachment styles. And I know what he is capable of within those limits as I have seen this range. Likewise, he knows how I act and react within that range/my range. He broke up with me well last time and we both agreed we had a good ending. Not so this time. We all play our part in this dynamic, but my part in it does not make me solely responsible for the choice he made. He has will and choice, in addition to his attachment style.
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Deleted
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Anger
Nov 5, 2018 1:01:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 1:01:53 GMT
i think anger certainly is appropriate and part of the process.
i don't know why it wouldn't be, any painful human interaction had the potential to provoke anger.
and allowing it instead of trying to rationalize it away, is in my opinion a better way of processing it.
i don't think that understanding precludes anger , or that anger precludes understanding.
it's in the range of normal emotional responses to difficulty in a relationship.
of course there is bad behavior. being imprisoned by someone else's bad behavior is the real issue.
sure, get mad. get super mad. work it out.
the question then becomes.... then what?
that's where understanding can help further resolve it.
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Anger
Nov 5, 2018 1:06:26 GMT
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Post by epicgum on Nov 5, 2018 1:06:26 GMT
Anger is a legitimate emotion and it is ok and good to feel, express and understand your anger. I think that's something that both attachment styles gave difficulty with. But maybe more so the avoidance, which is accustomed to repressing all emotions.
Blame on the other hand. I'm not not sure about.
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Deleted
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Anger
Nov 5, 2018 1:06:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 1:06:33 GMT
anger becomes malignant when nothing is learned or gained from it.
it's pretty common for insecurely attached people to live stuck in anger instead of using it as an impetus for change.
then it becomes a trap, usually an excuse to blame and be resentful.
why not get angry and make choices to support a better relationship outcome in the future?
i think that's healthy!
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Anger
Nov 5, 2018 1:17:09 GMT
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Post by epicgum on Nov 5, 2018 1:17:09 GMT
I guess for me, my revelation is that your emotions are evolved to tell you something about yourself and your environment, and you should listen to them and try to understand them so that you can take action to address (positively or negatively) the situation that motivates them. Relating to other people and communicating with them on an intimate level involves sharing these feelings, even if they are negative.
(Apologies if this is blindingly obvious to the rest of you but I was kind of raised in the school of "if you dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all")
So your emotions are legitimate and deserve to be heard no matter what they are, because this is your body telling you something about your environment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 1:35:49 GMT
I guess for me, my revelation is that your emotions are evolved to tell you something about yourself and your environment, and you should listen to them and try to understand them so that you can take action to address (positively or negatively) the situation that motivates them. Relating to other people and communicating with them on an intimate level involves sharing these feelings, even if they are negative. (Apologies if this is blindingly obvious to the rest of you but I was kind of raised in the school of "if you dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all") So your emotions are legitimate and deserve to be heard no matter what they are, because this is your body telling you something about your environment. yes!!! well said. |
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liz
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Anger
Nov 5, 2018 16:15:40 GMT
Post by liz on Nov 5, 2018 16:15:40 GMT
Thank you for a very frank thread that tackles a complex issue.
I'm trying to learn more about my own interactions with others as well, and I would like some opinions.
Anger situations:
1. My NPD ex had been abusive, financially exploitative and cruel to me, and recently he started posting about his new expensive self-improvement hobby on social media as well as photos of himself and the woman with whom he cheated in an expensive exotic resort paradise while still owing me money. A good friend of mine whom I have known since our teenage years and whom I have cried to about the ordeal "liked" several posts on his page, including the ones with his new squeeze. She hardly even know him except as my partner when we got together for dinners, etc. I got angry with her about it and texted her. She deleted her "likes" claiming she didn't notice the new girlfriend next to him in the water. It has affected our friendship.
2. This is about the anger of my AP friend G. For 4 months, G has been dating this hot guy she met online in a LDR with whom she is smitten. However, she had been the one who had booked train tickets and accommodations to visit him, and he broke his promise to visit her and gradually faded away. She was understandably angry and I encouraged her to move on as he isn't stable or reliable. They are no longer together. She was convinced that he is still married and so she snooped on him by requesting his personal details from the public register of the city he was born in and shared his details with me. He was divorced since 2001, to her surprise. I felt that this crossed a boundary, even though G didn't do anything illegal.
Am I being unfair in both situations?
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Post by mrob on Nov 5, 2018 23:19:51 GMT
I don’t think either of them are any of your business, liz. As juniper said, anger is fine for a time, but what after? Resentment is like rust. It eats one out from the inside and bubbles up. For me, anger generally comes from fear. Fear of not getting something I want, or fear of losing something I have, emotionally, materially, whatever. Sort of fits in with insecure attachment now I see it in print. |
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Anger
Nov 5, 2018 23:55:03 GMT
Post by 8675309 on Nov 5, 2018 23:55:03 GMT
1- The likes from your friend to the ex may bug me a bit but not anger me, its just a like, likes dont mean much.
2- Not sure why you would be angry for her looking, has nothing to do with you. Its not your business and what is the crossed boundary? Is it just something you dont do so you feel is a boundary crossed?
Why not look someone up you're dating? What if they are a convicted abuser, has 5 DWIs and still drinks, etc? Would I want a guy with 5 DWIs still drinking? Its obviously a problem for him... Would I want a guy thats been in and out of jail? Would I want a guy that is $30,000 behind on child support because hes a deadbeat dad? What kind of man would he be to me if he doesnt even take care of his child... Save yourself by finding things out...
Everyones whole life is on the internet and most people now a days Google/look up who they date. I dont see this as a bad thing if you're really interested in someone before you get deep. Would I bother after the fact, no.
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 0:15:07 GMT
Post by alexandra on Nov 6, 2018 0:15:07 GMT
Thank you for a very frank thread that tackles a complex issue. I'm trying to learn more about my own interactions with others as well, and I would like some opinions. Anger situations: 1. My NPD ex had been abusive, financially exploitative and cruel to me, and recently he started posting about his new expensive self-improvement hobby on social media as well as photos of himself and the woman with whom he cheated in an expensive exotic resort paradise while still owing me money. A good friend of mine whom I have known since our teenage years and whom I have cried to about the ordeal "liked" several posts on his page, including the ones with his new squeeze. She hardly even know him except as my partner when we got together for dinners, etc. I got angry with her about it and texted her. She deleted her "likes" claiming she didn't notice the new girlfriend next to him in the water. It has affected our friendship. 2. This is about the anger of my AP friend G. For 4 months, G has been dating this hot guy she met online in a LDR with whom she is smitten. However, she had been the one who had booked train tickets and accommodations to visit him, and he broke his promise to visit her and gradually faded away. She was understandably angry and I encouraged her to move on as he isn't stable or reliable. They are no longer together. She was convinced that he is still married and so she snooped on him by requesting his personal details from the public register of the city he was born in and shared his details with me. He was divorced since 2001, to her surprise. I felt that this crossed a boundary, even though G didn't do anything illegal. Am I being unfair in both situations?
1. Do you have any underlying trust issues with your friend? I can see being pissed off at her for not believing you that your ex is NPD/abusive or heeding your warnings to cut him out. Though, if you're still connected to him over social media for reasons other than you need to be to get your money back, I can also see why she may not think it matters if she's still following and interacting with him, too. But anyway, if your friend claims she didn't mean anything by it, maybe give her the benefit of the doubt and figure out if you can get to the underlying reasons it upsets you and then you can try talking to her about it. I'm not saying this is an easy situation, because I know how much close exposure to NPD can mess someone up for a long time and protecting your own boundaries when someone like that is at all involved is really important. But this friend might have your back and not realize how hard it is for you, because if you haven't been on the receiving end of NPD it can be difficult to understand (even if she's heard all your crying about it).
2. I agree it's not really your concern, but again, I ask you -- do you have underlying trust issues with this friend? Like, if she can cross that boundary with him, maybe she can cross a boundary with you one day?
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liz
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 0:28:38 GMT
Post by liz on Nov 6, 2018 0:28:38 GMT
Thanks for your feedback.
1) I do feel betrayed because she was the one who knew the most about the abusive relationship for its long duration, the abuses, the cheating, etc., including my anger that the ex and his girlfriend spent lavishly money that belongs to me. I wasn't stalking this ex, I'm long over him, but I'm preparing for legal action to get my money back when I saw her likes. Why would she like the posts of the abuser of her best friend spending money he borrowed from me and never returned, money that I need for myself? I would never do that in a million years to a good friend who has been hurt this way, so to me the neutrality is breached. I don't understand her behavior. This anger is mine.
2) The anger I'm referring to is my AP friend's, as I've stated. The relationship is over - she did what she did as an act of revenge. It isn't to check up on his background as a safe precaution. While they were together, it never crossed her mind. She was hoping that he's in fact married and to use their dalliance to trouble him and his wife. I told her I absolutely do not agree but she should do whatever she wants to feel better. She still wants to send some messages to him in vengeance, I don't know what. I feel that her anger is driving her to cross a boundary. I'm *not* angry with her, I do not agree with her anger.
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 0:35:33 GMT
liz likes this
Post by alexandra on Nov 6, 2018 0:35:33 GMT
Thanks for your feedback. 1) I do feel betrayed because she was the one who knew the most about the abusive relationship for its long duration, including my anger that the ex and his girlfriend spent lavishly, and that's money owed to me. I wasn't stalking this ex, I'm long over him, but I'm preparing for legal action to get my money back when I saw her likes. Why would she like the posts of the abuser of her best friend spending money he borrowed from me and never returned, money that I need for myself? I would never do that in a million years to a good friend who has been hurt this way, so to me the neutrality is breached. I don't understand her behavior. This anger is mine. 2) The anger I'm referring to is my AP friend's, as I've stated. The relationship is over - she did what she did as an act of revenge. It isn't to check up on his background as a safety check. While they were together, it never crossed her mind. She was hoping that he's in fact married and to use their dalliance to trouble him and his wife. I told her I absolutely do not agree but she should do whatever she wants to feel better. I feel that her anger is driving her to cross a boundary.
1. Yes, betrayal is bound to make one feel anger! I agree it's weird for your friend to like his posts, but if you have no other reasons to think she wasn't just being clueless and insensitive, then it shouldn't hurt to explain to her why this is a sensitive area for you and see what she says/does. If you do think there's more going on then you may consider weighing if the distrust is coming from any general distrust you have for other people or if she is repeatedly doing things that undermine your friendship, then go from there.
2. Oh, well, that anger does sound very AP-driven. She's overly focused on him right now and may be lacking healthy tools for emotional regulation. I haven't ever done anything like that, but it could also be a desperate way to continue to feel connected (looking into it instead of dropping it, learning "new" information about him, daydreaming about reaching out to him or his wife to play out and loop on a scenario that involves some form of future contact, even if it's negative).
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liz
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 0:51:34 GMT
Post by liz on Nov 6, 2018 0:51:34 GMT
1. I really can't fix my mind around this friend - I wonder if she has "turned" due to being exhausted as the shoulder I cried on? I got into trouble and lost a big sum of money to an incompetent lawyer who made some really basic and terrible mistakes, and poured out to her. She was questioning my judgment, the lawyer might have made mistakes because I gave too many details, etc...but in fact the lawyer made mistakes about the court hearing dates and document filing datelines. I felt uncomfortable about her reaction,...if it were the other way round, I'd usually ask, "oh dear, I'm sorry that happened to you, what mistakes were made, does this set you back, etc. " I wouldn't ask "Is this because you did these other things wrong, could these these be your errors?" And then the likes of the NPD abuser's posts. I feel really weird and upset. The ex's issues to me seem morally clear, financial dishonesty and cheating. She seems to be not having my back, of course she isn't obliged to, but she's one of my oldest friends. I hope to let it rest and catch up with her after a couple of weeks. However, I am wary, not angry anymore. This rift could sadden me much more than the recent breakup with ex DA!
Btw, on a scale of 1-10, my thoughts and longing for ex DA has gone down to 2-3. Maybe it's because my mind is preoccupied with other things and I don't have time to think of him.  2. With this friend, I'm torn as I'm her shoulder to cry on, but I don't approve of what she is doing. she says she needs this to feel better over what she considers a love betrayal. I did suggest reading up on AP, and she did. She did extensive work with her therapist on her AP attachment style just last week. I was surprised when she still went ahead to get hold of the info. I guess I don't know the best way to act as her friend under these circumstances as I don't want to enable what she is determined to do.
But yes, two different instances of anger, and I wonder about them. They don't trouble me, but what lessons do they hold?
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 1:33:35 GMT
liz likes this
Post by 8675309 on Nov 6, 2018 1:33:35 GMT
#2 if shes looking to get some revenge, thats a whole other story, you didnt say that. I got out of your post she went snooping for curiosity sake not some revenge plot. haha.
Id tell my friend that she is being a cray cary stalker in a friendly way and its not healthy. Id tell my friend out of love and they would know it. Anger is not what I would feel if I know said friend was AP, Id feel sad for them.
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Anger
Nov 6, 2018 2:34:50 GMT
liz likes this
Post by alexandra on Nov 6, 2018 2:34:50 GMT
But yes, two different instances of anger, and I wonder about them. They don't trouble me, but what lessons do they hold?
I think there's more to process here around your perception of boundaries, what boundaries are important to you, and what you need from your friendships to feel safe.
I also think that, past telling your friend that trying to stay so involved with an ex that she's not friends with doesn't seem like healthy behavior, you can't do much about it. It's great you were able to share attachment theory with her and she followed up with her therapist on it. But from here, it's her journey and her effort, and it's going to take so much longer than a week to work through those tendencies and heal. If you are interested in doing so, you can ask her if she wants to further discuss attachment theory with you and learn from each other, but if she said yes that would also put you in the position of taking on some of her emotional venting so only you know if you want to go there with her!
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