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Post by goldilocks on Dec 18, 2018 9:10:59 GMT
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Post by epicgum on Dec 18, 2018 19:09:02 GMT
It's funny, as someone who has been abandoned recently, I hate this article.
And yet, had I appreciated and fully believed in the concepts behind this article prior...I wouldn't have been afraid of making commitments.
And yet, if a commitment to love "until death do us part" only really means "until I stop feeling like it" then why make such a commitment? What is the point? And to be honest I question the integrity of someone who makes these kinds of promises secretly secure in the knowledge that they feel entitled to break it at any time.
I guess it is a question of expectations and communication as to what two people expect, but for me, if you don't expect to be able to keep these promises, you ought not make them.
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Post by ocarina on Dec 18, 2018 21:29:51 GMT
Good love looks and feels “boring”
Real, healthy love is quiet, not loud. It is calm, not frenzied. It is solid and stable, not flighty and fickle
"Reallove… it’s not a game you don’t understand the rules of, or a test you never got the materials to study for. It never leaves you wondering… what you could possibly do to make it come home and stay there. It’s fucking boring, dude. I don’t walk around mired in uneasiness, waiting for the other shoe to drop… This feels safe and steadfast and predictable and secure. It’s boring as shit. And it’s easily the best thing I’ve ever felt.”
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Post by ocarina on Dec 18, 2018 21:35:18 GMT
Love this thanks goldilocks - I totally get her writing - and to be honest epicgum I am not sure I understand where you're coming from in terms of her descriptions of lack of commitment? Most of what I see in her writing seems to me to be suggesting that the kind of out of your mind frenzied kind of passionate love is illusory and that real love is found in the day to day choices of compassion and caring - in other words that commitment is a choice. Maybe I've missed the parts you're referring to. |
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Post by ocarina on Dec 18, 2018 21:42:05 GMT
"Then what IS love?
•Embracing each other as individual human beings with individual human being lives, who just happen to get along enough to bump down the road alongside one another.
•Then, mutual investment and support in each other’s growth, especially when things get rough or scary. But always complementary, never to complete one another. And always with care and compassion.
•Choice.
•Action.
•Investment.
Love is deliberate, and we are active players. Attraction and infatuation may be something we “fall into” against our will, but mature and healthy love is something we consciously build."
My thoughts exactly - so she must be right LOL!
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Post by epicgum on Dec 18, 2018 21:52:59 GMT
Love this thanks goldilocks - I totally get her writing - and to be honest epicgum I am not sure I understand where you're coming from in terms of her descriptions of lack of commitment? Most of what I see in her writing seems to me to be suggesting that the kind of out of your mind frenzied kind of passionate love is illusory and that real love is found in the day to day choices of compassion and caring - in other words that commitment is a choice. Maybe I've missed the parts you're referring to. "And nobody is entitled to ask anything of the other person that conflicts with what they want to give and their life desires. So if their ideas around them change, it’s for us to pick up our own pieces, and them theirs. There’s no pointing to contracts. No throwing guilt trips in their face. At the end of the day, promises are social constructs and the human experience is non-negotiable. We commit because we choose to, and anyone, at any time, can choose to step down from them and un-choose." |
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Post by ocarina on Dec 18, 2018 22:06:05 GMT
Love this thanks goldilocks - I totally get her writing - and to be honest epicgum I am not sure I understand where you're coming from in terms of her descriptions of lack of commitment? Most of what I see in her writing seems to me to be suggesting that the kind of out of your mind frenzied kind of passionate love is illusory and that real love is found in the day to day choices of compassion and caring - in other words that commitment is a choice. Maybe I've missed the parts you're referring to. "And nobody is entitled to ask anything of the other person that conflicts with what they want to give and their life desires. So if their ideas around them change, it’s for us to pick up our own pieces, and them theirs. There’s no pointing to contracts. No throwing guilt trips in their face. At the end of the day, promises are social constructs and the human experience is non-negotiable. We commit because we choose to, and anyone, at any time, can choose to step down from them and un-choose." Ahh - didn't read that piece of writing - it's interesting because yes - it seems to be contradictory in that a lot of what she's shared is actually very pro healthy commitment - my take on this would be that there's no controlling a partner - choose a healthy, stable, emotionally there partner and take responsibility for your own emotional health, stability etc and commitment becomes a non issue because both are making that choice to be there again and again.
What we rage against, is when we find a partner who's not able to be what we require, not mature enough, healed enough or whatever - and very often this is obvious right from the start but we fall into that love lorn rabbit hole and try to "make it work" by forcing (often by subterfuge) a commitment. At that point it is on us to accept their autonomy whether we like it or not - and to accept our feelings about it.
I get it - promises are essentially meaningless contracts made to be broken -but very often we hear them and we want to believe that this other person will miraculously be able to make us happy so we buy into the myth - only to find the bubble bursts down the road.... Real commitment doesn't require promises - it means action, repeatedly and consistently - and commitment with the knowledge that we have no control over the other - we can only own our own part of the story. Scary stuff maybe.
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Post by ocarina on Dec 18, 2018 22:09:45 GMT
Maybe epicgum this is a good example of the fact that we tend to interpret what we read in the light of our past and our current emotional state. I read this, I guess, through my somewhat emotionally detached filter. If I had read it two years ago in the midst of relationship breakdown and pain I almost certainly would have been with you in my interpretation. |
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Post by goldilocks on Dec 18, 2018 22:32:12 GMT
There is something beautiful and liberating about this concept, of choosing one another in each moment and not taking the other for granted.
That said, I would like to be able to count on my close ones, friends and lovers alike, as a reliable support network.
This distinction, in my opinion aligns with expectations vs. standards
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Post by epicgum on Dec 19, 2018 0:55:04 GMT
medium.com/@krisgage/other-people-are-not-ours-df07484b0f3b"And nobody is entitled to ask anything of the other person that conflicts with what they want to give and their life desires. So if their ideas around them change, it’s for us to pick up our own pieces, and them theirs. There’s no pointing to contracts. No throwing guilt trips in their face. At the end of the day, promises are social constructs and the human experience is non-negotiable. We commit because we choose to, and anyone, at any time, can choose to step down from them and un-choose." Ahh - didn't read that piece of writing - it's interesting because yes - it seems to be contradictory in that a lot of what she's shared is actually very pro healthy commitment - my take on this would be that there's no controlling a partner - choose a healthy, stable, emotionally there partner and take responsibility for your own emotional health, stability etc and commitment becomes a non issue because both are making that choice to be there again and again.
What we rage against, is when we find a partner who's not able to be what we require, not mature enough, healed enough or whatever - and very often this is obvious right from the start but we fall into that love lorn rabbit hole and try to "make it work" by forcing (often by subterfuge) a commitment. At that point it is on us to accept their autonomy whether we like it or not - and to accept our feelings about it.
I get it - promises are essentially meaningless contracts made to be broken -but very often we hear them and we want to believe that this other person will miraculously be able to make us happy so we buy into the myth - only to find the bubble bursts down the road.... Real commitment doesn't require promises - it means action, repeatedly and consistently - and commitment with the knowledge that we have no control over the other - we can only own our own part of the story. Scary stuff maybe.
I mean, I'm mostly raging against myself and my own issues and their consequences, if you read my posting history. There's neil Strauss line that comes to mind: "The difference between an obligation and a commitment is that an obligation comes from outside yourself, a commitment comes from within. Reduce your obligations. Strengthen your commitments." But to be honest, I think that all of this is a bit of a cop out. I'm not talking about other people's obligations/commitments to you....I'm talking about your commitments/obligations to other people. Obviously in our modern age with things like physical abuse, the expectation is that you should leave your partner, but what about if you just aren't in love anymore? What if you just aren't fully satisfied anymore? Do you just leave? If so, then what's the point of all of this "for better or for worse" crap? |
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Post by leavethelighton on Dec 19, 2018 1:57:11 GMT
It is interesting we expect romantic love to be about desire and feeling or else people think they "fell out of love", but more biblical "love thy neighbor" is more clearly about behavior towards and action.
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Post by 8675309 on Dec 19, 2018 2:17:11 GMT
epicgum Yes, you end it. Its a reality, there is no guarantee you will love someone forever, its a risk you take, its the same if you never take the risk either. For better or worse is for when you are together and in love. For better and have to let them go. Youre not anymore set them free to find someone else. You're only 'obligated' to be honest/put the work in 50/50/treat them well not stay with them. Ending is not treating one badly either, it is treating them well, you set them free to find a better fit, a better fit for both of you. It may hurt but in the long run its better. You cant force yourself to stay in love or to love someone. Sure you should try and work on things first but if the love is not there, its just not there. You can have much love for someone but not be in love with them anymore. I have ended things because I fell out, loved him dearly but not in love anymore, I set him free to find someone that does love him like he should be loved. He married a few years later and has a great life/family. This was 20+ years ago and hes still has his great family. The right thing was done not to force love and set him free.
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Post by Jeb Kinnison on Dec 19, 2018 9:09:17 GMT
Goldilocks suggested I move this thread to General DA discussion since it seemed appropriate (and was getting wider participation.) Done!
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Post by ocarina on Dec 19, 2018 9:18:02 GMT
Thank you was about to suggest this - could we post a sticky reminder at the top of the support forums so that new payers are aware they are designed to be spaces for discussion by individuals of that attachment type only? Tbh I think the wording is a little ambiguous.
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Post by goldilocks on Dec 19, 2018 10:32:50 GMT
I get it - promises are essentially meaningless contracts made to be broken -but very often we hear them and we want to believe that this other person will miraculously be able to make us happy so we buy into the myth - only to find the bubble bursts down the road.... Real commitment doesn't require promises - it means action, repeatedly and consistently - and commitment with the knowledge that we have no control over the other - we can only own our own part of the story. Scary stuff maybe.
I mean, I'm mostly raging against myself and my own issues and their consequences, if you read my posting history. There's neil Strauss line that comes to mind: "The difference between an obligation and a commitment is that an obligation comes from outside yourself, a commitment comes from within.
Reduce your obligations. Strengthen your commitments."But to be honest, I think that all of this is a bit of a cop out. I'm not talking about other people's obligations/commitments to you....I'm talking about your commitments/obligations to other people. Obviously in our modern age with things like physical abuse, the expectation is that you should leave your partner, but what about if you just aren't in love anymore? What if you just aren't fully satisfied anymore? Do you just leave? If so, then what's the point of all of this "for better or for worse" crap? I'm on the same page as the bold bits. I prefer devotion to commitment. because devotion obviously comes from the heart, while commitment can be contractual. Less obligation/expectation/taking for granted More devotion/standards/appreciation Not that a bit of legal/social pressure to fullfil your commitment has no role, but this should not be the mainstay of what bonds you. Children of married people do better than children of parents with no commitment at all. Obviously even in a good marriage, there are hard times and when you have small children there is a lot of gruntwork that is not fun or glamorous. Polarity is essential to feeling in love and attraction. Yet running a household and raising children puts us into depolarizing roles. In my opinion it is extremely important to have practices in place to maintain polarity, which is often overlooked in both traditional and modern life. Traditional couples just stayed together in spite of boredom or unhappiness (as even people with abusive husbands or cheating wives were shunned harshly after divorce) and modern couples simply split. In my opinion, a deep commitment would include not only the legal/financial side "Harder to meet financial obligations like housing and childcare" or social pressures "Will lose most of our friends", but first and foremost practices to maintain both connection and polarity. Things that are good for the relationship even if the individuals involved don't feel like doing them in the moment, they have committed to a higher structure; the marriage or love relationship. Practices can be as simple as having a date night, maintaining hygiene and fitness, having most dinners without screens or whatever works for you. It is very individual and hence it is so important we discuss this before committing. |
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