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Post by alexandra on Jan 6, 2019 19:35:24 GMT
@mickey, is he aware that he lashes out when he feels threatened/defensive, which is hurtful to you and makes conflict resolution much more difficult? Have you at least told him that? I know you said you're not trying to get into his head too much, and that's correct to have boundaries, it's up to him to decide if he wants to deal with his issues. However, if he's unaware, maybe it would help to both communicate how you are impacted by the behavior and how you receive it, and then possibly share that attachment theory is an interesting body of research that can help improve communication and conflict resolution.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 20:27:34 GMT
ocarina, i completely agree with all you've written. That's why I am focusing on my internal process to be as healthy as I can , and then see if the dynamic improves or if these things are patterns that won't budge. And alexandra, yes, I have let him know how I feel about his lashing out and defensive behavior. This is a time of me seeing if things get better and we grow together or evaluating whether or not this is going to be healthy for me to continue. I think I will know in time. I've been so open about my process , he seems to focus more on me and my "issues" than on fixing his own. He is a great person but I do have a limit, I just want to make sure I am doing all I can on my side because I still have confusion to get through and clarity to find for myself.
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Post by 8675309 on Jan 7, 2019 11:31:46 GMT
Im not DA but do have some in my attachment.
As a secure I would be annoyed by what you mentioned in your original post when you have plans made. Im busy and I will always carve out time for people/things I care about so when they show inconsideration... specially if its happened more than once...
I would have some of the same feelings you do so its not just a DA thing, I see it as human.
A FA/DA guy brought me here. Hes pretty FA with some DA traits. Hes more on the avoidant side with me over anxious.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 14:35:31 GMT
Im not DA but do have some in my attachment. As a secure I would be annoyed by what you mentioned in your original post when you have plans made. Im busy and I will always carve out time for people/things I care about so when they show inconsideration... specially if its happened more than once... I would have some of the same feelings you do so its not just a DA thing, I see it as human. A FA/DA guy brought me here. Hes pretty FA with some DA traits. Hes more on the avoidant side with me over anxious. Yes, I agree that the lack of communication was rude. Hopefully this issue improves, and if not I will know I've done what I think I need to do to address it. My main issue around all this is confusion around deactivation, knowing what's going on inside of me in terms of feeling ok in the relationship or not. And, knowing when someone else's issues are too big to work with. I can work with my own, and of course don't mind being alone if it's a big hassle. Maybe it's too easy to be alone. I have trouble knowing when to fold, or when it's just my attachment system shutting down and making a bigger deal of things than need be. We've been together a long enough time that I feel like I should know by now, but I think I tend to shove things under the rug in self doubt and let things go unchecked. After a while, it gets to me. I want to get better at being assertive when I first notice something amiss. I give too many chances perhaps. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 15:21:46 GMT
I have been thinking a lot about what Ocarina said.
I have been keeping the peace, walking on eggshells, being a cheerleader.
I've gotten to the point I am anticipating and dreading his emotional reactions to matters I see as practical issues in need of practical solutions.
I don't want to say he's not a good boyfriend, but maybe just not a good match for me, personality wise.
I still don't want to do anything drastic.
But he was sullen yesterday. It felt like I was bearing the consequence of speaking up. After some awkward moments. I was able to "bring him round" and I was completely aware that I was trying to cheer him up and make him feel ok. It feels heavy right now.
Maybe he was late that night because he's not happy either. I'm not sure I can do anything about that. It seems chronic.
It seems like there isn't a way to take care of myself and have him be comfortable with that.
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Post by ocarina on Jan 7, 2019 20:47:31 GMT
I have been thinking a lot about what Ocarina said. I have been keeping the peace, walking on eggshells, being a cheerleader. I've gotten to the point I am anticipating and dreading his emotional reactions to matters I see as practical issues in need of practical solutions. I don't want to say he's not a good boyfriend, but maybe just not a good match for me, personality wise. I still don't want to do anything drastic. But he was sullen yesterday. It felt like I was bearing the consequence of speaking up. After some awkward moments. I was able to "bring him round" and I was completely aware that I was trying to cheer him up and make him feel ok. It feels heavy right now. Maybe he was late that night because he's not happy either. I'm not sure I can do anything about that. It seems chronic. It seems like there isn't a way to take care of myself and have him be comfortable with that. Emotional maturity in both partners is really important for a healthy relationship - this means taking ownership of your own emotions and it's not easy. Your part in this is really only on your own side of the fence - so his reaction has nothing to do with you as long as you've behaved in a way that you know to be respectful and honest. The problem with emotional caretaking is that it slowly erodes the relationship - by stuffing down your authentic self, you automatically tend to become more resentful of the other person - and small things, the kind of inconsiderate behaviour that is bound to show up in any relationship from time to time, become huge mountains. Taking care of his emotional needs by sidetracking your own is, to my mind, not doing either person any good. I have been with a couple of slightly child like men who idolised me, but with whom I found I was constantly having to be on good behaviour or risk the silent treatment or some kind of pouting passive aggressive avoidance. Because I loved them - and tend to be conflict avoidant, I started bending over to avoid this and becoming more and more miserable as a result. It was a really unpleasant dynamic and I blame myself for becoming the enabler - although it was often subtle and over time so not always easy to pick up on. The thing is - it didn't do them any good either since I allowed them to play their role even though I felt I was being the tolerant and accepting partner. Anyway @mickey I'm glad I brought some food for thought.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2019 21:17:40 GMT
@mickey, if you've clearly communicated and he's not responding with enough curiosity, change, growth, empathy to make the relationship a team effort (balanced needs, not prioritizing only one of you) while taking responsibility for his half of the issues, the relationship isn't going to evolve even though it sounds like you are doing your half of the work. His issues, and probably his inability to confront them, are likely coming from a place of such low self-esteem that he can't see the situation from any perspective other than the one he's got. He's likely been that way his whole life, and it has probably harmed other relationships prior to yours. If you're working on your own attachment style and he's not, your needs will eventually outgrow the capacity of the relationship.
Don't assume and anticipate his reactions and try to proactively manage him. That's not fair to either of you. He's got to be able to communicate what he wants or needs from you, and if he can't, he's lacking an important relationship skill.
However, don't assume you know why he's responding certain ways to things either -- if you do want to work through this, and want to make sure you did everything you could to communicate, then actually ask him. Telling him you feel disrespected when he's late, especially when you've changed your plans to accommodate him, is a fair thing to say. The perception of a criticism will probably trigger him (which is his issue to manage not yours), but you may surprise him if you also ask why this might be a chronic issue for him? And maybe you'll be surprised by the answer and can have a new conversation about it.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2019 21:25:37 GMT
I also want to add that people who are high on the anxiety axis tend to have difficulty with self-regulation of emotions. So he may seem sullen after fights because he's upset that he's feeling distant from you and doesn't know how to fix it, fearing he'll making it worse if he directly approaches you (fearing you may respond by "abandoning" him) but "needing" you to come closer. That is not something you need to baby him about, because it's his issue to overcome, but maybe it will help you understand what's happening. I personally find demystifying and depersonalizing those kinds of behaviors makes me both less resentful and better able to put up proper boundaries because I don't want to enable someone's issues that are their own to fix.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 21:45:30 GMT
I also want to add that people who are high on the anxiety axis tend to have difficulty with self-regulation of emotions. So he may seem sullen after fights because he's upset that he's feeling distant from you and doesn't know how to fix it, fearing he'll making it worse if he directly approaches you (fearing you may respond by "abandoning" him) but "needing" you to come closer. That is not something you need to baby him about, because it's his issue to overcome, but maybe it will help you understand what's happening. I personally find demystifying and depersonalizing those kinds of behaviors makes me both less resentful and better able to put up proper boundaries because I don't want to enable someone's issues that are their own to fix. I totally hear you on this. Yesterday, I was in kind of an observation mode. Observing myself, observing him. Not reacting, to what appeared to me to be some kind of acting out. I was thinking to myself.... This is too heavy and negative for me. I do not feel comfortable. I feel that I am having to placate. I observed him being sullen, and while I did placate a little, I also knew I was doing it just because I was already there. I listened to him complaining about this and that, all the negativity, and I just got tired. So today, he wanted to have a talk, and I let him know I feel that the intensity and negativity is too much for us to work through. I ended it, suggesting that our lifestyles and personalities, our needs and sensitivities, are not compatible although I don't question either of our sincerity or good intentions. I just could not have one more TALK about the same old stuff. He took it well but does see it as his failure. I don't know what to say to that, although I said that relationships are two people and we are just two people who didn't fit. After all the fault finding he did about me and my feelings, needs, preferences, which I began clearly stating and then drew back after a number of emotional clashes like I e described) I'm not sure how he can miss our incompatibility and still see it as his failure. That must be an AP thing. I haven't experienced it to this degree before. I can't say for sure he is AP but from the little I have read it just seems likely. I learned about AT and a number of other "type" tests and systems through a work seminar years ago and it intrigued me and I just applied it to me. Anyway, I have to review what happened here in my own thoughts and actions. I've learned some things and got confused about others. But I truly did the best I could with that. He has never done therapy or any kind of personality testing or introspection like I try to do, he just kind of rolls on with how he does things and then says women leave him and he doesn't know why. I know he has alluded to a history of some trauma but doesn't go into it. I'm sure his hurt is big. I feel bad but also relieved. I didn't want to hurt him. But it was hurting me to box myself up and try to be what needed. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 7, 2019 22:05:29 GMT
Ah, I'm sorry to hear that, @mickey. But it sounds like you did the right thing. He doesn't sound like he's interested in growing into a better partner right now, even though he acknowledges some of the problems are his. Responding to awareness with zero action and just barrelling through doesn't make for a healthier or more functional relationship.
I was challenging you to make sure you were asking/communicating instead of just assuming and taking eggshell-inspired actions, because I see that as a big problem in anxious-avoidant conflicts. And I've been there myself... the biggest catalyst for my own ability to change was starting to see how differently other people might think from the way I do, and I'd done too much negative anticipating over my life, when it wasn't always warranted.
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laura
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Post by laura on Jan 8, 2019 0:28:12 GMT
So, the update. We did connect via facetime. The conversation around sleep did include his assertion that he thinks that I am just feeling "out of place" at his home. And he did say that the differences between our sleepy hygiene routines are "not his fault". Haha! I am laughing because it's so predictable and absurd. I get it, and I care about him anyway. But he is hypersensitive about self - blaming and defending himself. Here I am saying all these reasons I am not sleeping well... routine, hormones, lack of physical exercise? etc etc. Here I am saying I took a sleep aid at my own home, because I couldn't sleep. He doesn't take any of that in and jumps right to his own narrative. Yes it is exhausting. However. I am focusing on the positives of him, and suggested we go for a walk outside together. This will take care of my strong wish to get some fresh air and exercise and reset my body rhythms, and also soothe him with time together. I think that if I am able to help him trust my consistency even when I am not the happiest, maybe he will lighten up and not take everything personally. I also try to not take things personally, it's a matter of balance and building trust and familiarity I guess. We all have baggage. I struggle as a dismissive avoidant because my emotions are unreliable, they disappear or get exacerbated like any person with things to work through. It's challenging but I'm trying to be constructive and I feel good about trying to fix up a rift and take care of both us the best I can. Maybe it will be ok if I just keep it simple and don't focus too much on the past or future. The loss of emotion and attachment and affection is easier to navigate if I just act more "normal" than I feel at the moment, and then it kind of corrects itself. It's funny how I've read DA's can be narcissistic. While that may be true, as an AP, we tend to think everything is about us! Haha! Well, in my case. I can't speak for anyone else. It's difficult because not only do we have attachment styles but men and women tend to think differently too. You mentioned in another comment about hearing AP's can be manipulative. I never knew I was doing that until I took a long hard look at my behavior. Since I gave to the point of not meeting my own needs, I'd end up feeling resentments when my expectations weren't fulfilled. Creating expectations isn't fair to other people especially when I don't speak up. I am notorious for making assumptions and mind reading. AP's are more intuitive than others, but I find my fear and anxiety gets in the way of my intuition. I react without looking at the context of the situation. And, it's a horrible, intense feeling. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 8, 2019 0:39:42 GMT
So, the update. We did connect via facetime. The conversation around sleep did include his assertion that he thinks that I am just feeling "out of place" at his home. And he did say that the differences between our sleepy hygiene routines are "not his fault". Haha! I am laughing because it's so predictable and absurd. I get it, and I care about him anyway. But he is hypersensitive about self - blaming and defending himself. Here I am saying all these reasons I am not sleeping well... routine, hormones, lack of physical exercise? etc etc. Here I am saying I took a sleep aid at my own home, because I couldn't sleep. He doesn't take any of that in and jumps right to his own narrative. Yes it is exhausting. However. I am focusing on the positives of him, and suggested we go for a walk outside together. This will take care of my strong wish to get some fresh air and exercise and reset my body rhythms, and also soothe him with time together. I think that if I am able to help him trust my consistency even when I am not the happiest, maybe he will lighten up and not take everything personally. I also try to not take things personally, it's a matter of balance and building trust and familiarity I guess. We all have baggage. I struggle as a dismissive avoidant because my emotions are unreliable, they disappear or get exacerbated like any person with things to work through. It's challenging but I'm trying to be constructive and I feel good about trying to fix up a rift and take care of both us the best I can. Maybe it will be ok if I just keep it simple and don't focus too much on the past or future. The loss of emotion and attachment and affection is easier to navigate if I just act more "normal" than I feel at the moment, and then it kind of corrects itself. It's funny how I've read DA's can be narcissistic. While that may be true, as an AP, we tend to think everything is about us! Haha! Well, in my case. I can't speak for anyone else. It's difficult because not only do we have attachment styles but men and women tend to think differently too. You mentioned in another comment about hearing AP's can be manipulative. I never knew I was doing that until I took a long hard look at my behavior. Since I gave to the point of not meeting my own needs, I'd end up feeling resentments when my expectations weren't fulfilled. Creating expectations isn't fair to other people especially when I don't speak up. I am notorious for making assumptions and mind reading. AP's are more intuitive than others, but I find my fear and anxiety gets in the way of my intuition. I react without looking at the context of the situation. And, it's a horrible, intense feeling. The narcissist trait presents in extreme DA’s. The difference is a DA is inwardly focused and the AP is outwardly focused. The AP is constantly thinking what their partner is feeling, thinking, reacting to- even if they do take things personally, there is an extremely high degree of outward focus due to anxiety and fear of abandonment. In an extreme DA case, they think of only their own feelings, don’t communicate, and don’t regard or pursue connections. That’s where the narcissistic label comes in. It’s very lonely for the person on the receiving end. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 3:48:18 GMT
It's crazy, the whole thing was crazy making to me.
I was asked on this thread, what kind of help did I need from him.
What kind of support did I need?
Hot tea, help researching on the internet?
Here is the thing!
He completely denied my reality, invalidated my concern that my hormones are out of balance, because it did not fit HIS self absorbed narrative.
There would be no helping me research options, because to him the problem of hormones out of balance was fiction!
He thought he caused it, so he could fix it, with his suggestions, apologies, emotional gyrations.
This is madness to me. I just asked for practical understanding and support for what I believe the real issue is WITH MY BODY. How presumptuous to think he knows better what the real problem is?!??
I get that all attachment stuff is madness. Mine and His and Everybody's. That's why I work on it. I get it.
But here it is. The support I needed is for him to not deny my reality in favor of his narrative.
I made it clear to him that I needed THAT.
So yes, I asked for what I needed and he couldn't deliver and I'm just glad to be done.
Yikes .
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 8, 2019 5:35:41 GMT
It's crazy, the whole thing was crazy making to me. I was asked on this thread, what kind of help did I need from him. What kind of support did I need? Hot tea, help researching on the internet? Here is the thing! He completely denied my reality, invalidated my concern that my hormones are out of balance, because it did not fit HIS self absorbed narrative. There would be no helping me research options, because to him the problem of hormones out of balance was fiction! He thought he caused it, so he could fix it, with his suggestions, apologies, emotional gyrations. This is madness to me. I just asked for practical understanding and support for what I believe the real issue is WITH MY BODY. How presumptuous to think he knows better what the real problem is?!?? I get that all attachment stuff is madness. Mine and His and Everybody's. That's why I work on it. I get it. But here it is. The support I needed is for him to not deny my reality in favor of his narrative. I made it clear to him that I needed THAT. So yes, I asked for what I needed and he couldn't deliver and I'm just glad to be done. Yikes . Some people even with open communication won’t or can’t deal with their flaws. Does feel crazy. Even when clearly presented to their faces. Sounds like you did everything you could do and ultimately did what you had to do. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 14:45:52 GMT
It's crazy, the whole thing was crazy making to me. I was asked on this thread, what kind of help did I need from him. What kind of support did I need? Hot tea, help researching on the internet? Here is the thing! He completely denied my reality, invalidated my concern that my hormones are out of balance, because it did not fit HIS self absorbed narrative. There would be no helping me research options, because to him the problem of hormones out of balance was fiction! He thought he caused it, so he could fix it, with his suggestions, apologies, emotional gyrations. This is madness to me. I just asked for practical understanding and support for what I believe the real issue is WITH MY BODY. How presumptuous to think he knows better what the real problem is?!?? I get that all attachment stuff is madness. Mine and His and Everybody's. That's why I work on it. I get it. But here it is. The support I needed is for him to not deny my reality in favor of his narrative. I made it clear to him that I needed THAT. So yes, I asked for what I needed and he couldn't deliver and I'm just glad to be done. Yikes . Some people even with open communication won’t or can’t deal with their flaws. Does feel crazy. Even when clearly presented to their faces. Sounds like you did everything you could do and ultimately did what you had to do. Thank you. Yes, I did everything I could and learned about doing too much, in terms of compensating for the poor emotional boundaries of a partner. I have to tighten up my boundaries by recognizing when something is amiss and and not accepting it in order to not look like the bad guy. I can see he lives in his own emotional alternate reality. I can't live there with him. It was frustrating that he wanted to be sentimental and reluctant to end things when I went to get my things from his house. As if he wasn't sure this is the way to go. It's true that some of the best times I ever had with a man, I had with him. But the price was high. His needs and perspectives reigned supreme, and it's not fun to receive a lecture on my inadequacies nearly every day. Especially when I'm the only one making adjustments. I don't know what he is holding on to, but I am not going to get caught in sentimentality and wishing for what simply wasn't happening. What was happening caused both of us stress and unhappiness and I can't drag that out with fantasies of what might have been. He's extremely wishy washy and I saw that last night. I've asked for no contact because I don't want to ride the merry go round with him. Perhaps he tended to express doubts about the relationship and question it's viability, when he didn't really mean it and was just looking for me to assure him and make things right for him. I was always maintaining that we were working a day at a time for a future, but he pulled that away in little fits that I have learned is called protest behavior. One time too many. This time I just agreed that it sucks and made a quick exit. I guess he is surprised and a little stunned. I think in the long run it's absolutely the best thing that could happen here, for both of us. |
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