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Post by autumn on Jan 8, 2019 17:28:40 GMT
Hi guys,
In need of some insight as I’m driving myself crazy and afraid that I keep self-sabotaging any budding relationships without realizing the part I’m playing in it. I'm already so grateful for this forum, which has been helping me to understand some of my behavior and relationship patterns. Just for background, I test FA but basically think I’m anxious with avoidant people and secure to dismissive with secure people – I’m not sure which is more dominant but lately it seems to be the anxious side.
I recently went on three dates with a man that went well. The conversation was great and I found myself very attracted to him, although there were some personality traits that gave me a lot of doubts (particularly that he came off as a bit snobbish, judgmental and spoke about money frequently, and moved things very quickly physically). Another red flag for me was that he was recently out of another relationship but how eager he was to get married and settle down (we started communicating less than a month after he broke up with her and he spoke about his ex on a few different occasions and how they were still in touch and that she was infatuated with him). Although he seemed pretty enthusiastic about me and texted frequently and the sexual chemistry was strong, I was hesitant because of my fear that this could be a rebound situation.
After those two dates I went away for the holidays for two weeks, during which he called me every other day and we had long in-depth conversations debating topics, talking about our families, relationships, life goals.. My mind started changing about him in a good way based on what I felt were meaningful conversations and shared beliefs, not only sexual attraction. We made plans to see each other again when I got back into town on new years eve. That night we had a great time over dinner and drinks and he then spent the night at my place. We both had a bit too much to drink, and when the topic of his ex came up when we were in bed together, he started comparing us physically (I believe he thought he was being complimentary to me, but this made me uncomfortable and nervous). I said that I felt he wasn’t over his ex and that I didn’t want to be a rebound and had trouble trusting people. I think my tone and approach was kind and understanding (although I may have assumed too much). He said what I said made sense, but that he didn’t agree, and that it was too bad as he had really liked me, I guess insinuating that he felt I was putting an end to it (?). If my head had been clearer and my communication skills better, I probably would have said that I didn’t mean that it had to end, but that I would like to go a bit slower and that I did not appreciate the comparisons to his ex. Instead I remained confused.
In the morning, he said he wouldn’t want to lead anyone on, that he didn’t want a rebound, didn’t want to sleep around and that he was looking for a serious relationship that would end in marriage. He said the next person he slept with he wanted to be his wife (intense!). I mentioned again that I didn’t think he was over his last relationship, and he said he didn’t have an answer for me. We parted ways after getting coffee together, and he thanked me for the night.
After this, he ghosted. I texted him later that day to see if he was surviving his hangover and his only response was “Ugh!”. I tried calling him two days later, and no response (after being incredibly responsive and initiating most calls). Perhaps in his mind, he thought we already addressed this wasn’t going anywhere, and that he implied I wasn't the person for him, but I would have liked to have a clear-minded conversation to understand what happened, what we both meant and what we wanted.
I understand that if someone ghosts, there is no point trying to understand their motivations or why he lost interest. But I feel it’s a good time for self reflection on the part I play in these interactions. Although I have been intentional about trying to be more open about how I’m feeling, without placing blame, I think I’m not able to continue the conversation or push for clarity, perhaps because I’m scared of the answer they will give and really what I’m doing is seeking reassurance rather than complete honesty. Perhaps I also wasn’t really listening to him, and made assumptions about how he was feeling and how he would treat me as a result, and that ultimately turned into a self fulfilling prophecy. Without being able to speak with him about this, I have no idea.
Any insight (not on his ghosting, but on my behavior) would be much appreciated!
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Post by sissyk on Jan 8, 2019 18:42:56 GMT
Welcome--My two cents reading your story is while you may indeed have attachment tendencies worth exploring, this guy was moving way too fast and pressuring you to get with his marriage program after a few dates. (!!!) You are just starting to get to know each other! Your caution is well placed. Also, his going dark at the first misunderstanding tells you loads about how he would be as a life partner.
You could send him a text and say Hey are we done here? I'm unclear as to why and I would appreciate hearing that directly if it would help YOU in some way process this.
If you see some strands of this experience played out in your other dating and relationships, there might be some insight to be gained there.
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Post by 8675309 on Jan 8, 2019 18:53:56 GMT
Oh he is in total rebound!! He is also moving fast which tells me he is in rebound along with bringing up his ex... he is in denial about it. Ghosting tells me he has an insecure attachment too. Secures don’t ghost...
You actually dodged a bullet.
People that bring up the ex like he did are not over it. There is casual talk about past exes and then there is what he’s bring up.
to add: Maybe you have in the past but I see this as secure behavior. Red flags galore with him. I’m secure attached and this is how I see him by what you posted.
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Post by autumn on Jan 8, 2019 20:37:48 GMT
Thank you both for the thoughtful responses. This makes sense to me and makes me feel like I was valid in raising these concerns, and it says more about him in how he responded. I definitely need to work on my selection process and identifying red flags. When he said he talked to his friend about me after the second date, I was flattered at first, and then in my head was telling myself STOP do not let this charm you, he doesn't even KNOW you. Of course, after a couple weeks of deep phone conversations and interesting discussions, I thought differently and decided I needed to be more open and take more chances. I'm just not sure how much to trust my intuition anymore while also trying to be open and compassionate in new relationships.
Either way, I am not contacting him again as I don't think there is any benefit. Thank you for the insight!
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Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2019 20:57:59 GMT
Thank you both for the thoughtful responses. This makes sense to me and makes me feel like I was valid in raising these concerns, and it says more about him in how he responded. I definitely need to work on my selection process and identifying red flags. When he said he talked to his friend about me after the second date, I was flattered at first, and then in my head was telling myself STOP do not let this charm you, he doesn't even KNOW you. Of course, after a couple weeks of deep phone conversations and interesting discussions, I thought differently and decided I needed to be more open and take more chances. I'm just not sure how much to trust my intuition anymore while also trying to be open and compassionate in new relationships. Either way, I am not contacting him again as I don't think there is any benefit. Thank you for the insight! It sounds like he might have been love-bombing you. And whether that's because he's on the rebound or he's a narcissist is in question to me, but his insistence that he's not rebounding and that his ex is still pining over him plus the physical comparison (triangulation) gives me a lot of pause. I think you did the right thing to weed out an emotionally unstable guy. You spoke your mind and tried to set a boundary (really, what you said to him was hey, I like you but slow down!), and his response to a boundary was not to respect it but to ghost. This is not mature or caring partnership foundational behavior. It sounds like you're doing the right things, trying to become more aware of youself and of red flags. You don't want to sabotage things with good guys due to your attachment style if you can help it, but like the other posters said here, doesn't sound like that was the case in this instance. You're better off without this guy and did the right thing! |
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Post by happyidiot on Jan 8, 2019 22:50:04 GMT
autumnI have a different perspective than the other commenters. I'd be wondering if I was self-sabotaging too. I suspect you were. The issue is not whether or not this guy was ultimately a good match for you or what he did later, it's what you said to him. Him not being a good match (if that's even the case) is not evidence you weren't self-sabotaging. Self-sabotaging is behavior that goes against your goals. The goals in this case I would assume to be things like becoming more secure, allowing more closeness, getting to know someone properly so you can decide what you want with them rather than quickly pushing them away, etc. I say this as someone who can relate to your story. The reason I think that it is closeness-sabotaging is that it's not helpful to tell someone what they think or feel. To tell someone they aren't over their ex and imply they are looking for a rebound, what was he supposed to say to that? It's like a trap. It comes across like you've already made up your mind and there isn't anything he can do or say. Maybe him responding defensively and explaining how he is so the opposite of that that going forward he only wants to have sex with someone who he wants to marry was not a good response, but what would have been a good response? What would you have believed? You could have asked him open-ended questions and observed his words and actions over time instead. I think secure non self-sabotaging behavior/thoughts that are just about finding out more information about who the person really is and if they are a good potential partner and then making a well-thought out decision to end it look and feel different than insecurely sabotaging any potential relationship that comes your way. This particular guy may not be a good choice for you, but to me that doesn't rule out self-sabotaging. I don't know if I'm explaining this well? I think that what you said about how you are looking for insight into your own behavior is the key. Other people are focussing on whether or not they think he'd be good for you or analyzing the few things we know about him to decide if he is "over" his ex or not. Whether he is a good choice was not what you asked. And I have other things to say about how us FAs can twist things and make it seem like someone is more wrong for us than they are, if you want to hear about that. I have actually misinterpreted or misremembered things people said that I leapt to conclusions about as evidence that they were unsuitable as a partner or going to hurt me.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2019 23:21:06 GMT
autumn happyidiot, I agree with happyidiot that you may possibly be sabotaging in general and it's good to question and to think through patterns and past relationships to check it out. Because if that idea is on your mind, it's coming from somewhere and may have some basis. But the reason I didn't hone in on it here in this case was you didn't mention telling him he was on the rebound etc. until after he had done things that made you feel uncomfortable. So while you could have communicated your needs better and focused on telling him how you felt instead of telling him how he felt (saying it as I did, "hey, I like you but I'd also feel more comfortable if we go a little slower" versus saying "hey, you're on the rebound right?"), I think this example reveals you can work on communicating your needs effectively and feel comfortable with setting boundaries around them versus you sabotaged this for reasons that you were projecting and had nothing to do with him.
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Post by happyidiot on Jan 8, 2019 23:27:07 GMT
It sounds like he might have been love-bombing you. I don't think you can tell if it's love-bombing or not that early on. It can look the same as someone just being excited about you quickly, like many blossoming romances. In the early days it's very hard to distinguish narcissist love-bombing from the behavior of someone who is just AP, or just really likes you, or just enjoys the validation (or whatever). My kind secure ex who I ended up having a great relationship with called me every day at the beginning too. My highly AP friend lavishes attention on almost every new partner. And it's really common for someone who has a lot of free time over the holidays and maybe wants a break from their family to get caught up in spending a lot of time talking to a new person they are excited about. I see how it's tempting to combine the info that this guy was moving quickly and paying the OP lots of attention with how she said he seemed kind of judgmental, snobbish and money-focused and conclude "love-bombing" but I just think it's dangerous to assume. I guess I'm sensitive because I see terms like narcissist, love-bombing, psychopath, etc thrown around and think it dilutes their meaning. Plus us FAs are already paranoid enough, I'm not sure we need more reasons to wonder if everyone is out to get us. Love-bombing is characterized by things like the attention being highly transactional, the person trying to gain control over you and devaluation occurring. If those things never end up occurring it wasn't love-bombing, just someone paying a lot of attention to you. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2019 23:38:16 GMT
happyidiot, I respect that and that's why I tried to be careful to say it might be this or this or something else, I don't know. And I appreciate that an insecure who is already worried about their romantic picker being off doesn't need an extra thing to get paranoid about. But when I hear someone is talking marriage and in grand terms that early on coupled with it making the person feel uneasy and rushed, it is a red flag to me from all my personal experiences that the person is likely emotionally unstable. I don't think calling and showing excitement at first is bad, but it's making someone feel rushed and not respecting if they speak up or share their boundary that, to me, specifically indicates a problem.
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 8, 2019 23:46:07 GMT
Welcome, Autumn- I think all the posters gave you very sound advice regarding your situation and I think this guy presented some red flags. Those red flags would give me great pause whether this guy is a good fit for you.
Regardless of his potential or lack thereof, I would add regarding not sabotaging yourself to not bring up any important conversations after a night of drinking. Typically won’t end well- I brought up a sensitive issue after drinking w my ex only once and I def learned a lesson!
Also, I would be careful to move slower next time so you can assess more fully. It seems like things progressed quickly and that doesn’t give you a chance to notice all the red flags (or green!) and you may get your heart caught up in something you later regret.
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 9, 2019 0:20:11 GMT
happyidiot - I’m interested in what you have to say in this regard 🙋♀️ not to hijack the post, but I’m curious how FA twist and how you can ever make an FA feel loved and desired who is so full of doubts and feelings of unworthiness?!
“And I have other things to say about how us FAs can twist things and make it seem like someone is more wrong for us than they are, if you want to hear about that. I have actually misinterpreted or misremembered things people said that I leapt to conclusions about as evidence that they were unsuitable as a partner or going to hurt me.”
(I can post my question elsewhere if OP prefers.)
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Post by leavethelighton on Jan 9, 2019 0:56:22 GMT
I haven't read the other responses because I don't want my thoughts to be biased by theirs, so I'll post here and then read the above... I notice two things: 1. You were making assumptions that may or may not be true (the bit about your possibly being a rebound). While there may be reasons for you to believe you were rebound, it also sounds like this was more of a fear than something that had been demonstrated to be true. 2. Rather than indicate your actual concern-- that you don't like being physically compared to an ex-- you turned it around on him by saying you didn't think he was over his ex. I think your "part" in the dynamic may be that you projected your fears onto him, and that you could learn to be more direct in telling people what you/want need in a way that makes it about you and your needs rather than your perception of them. Of course, he had his own issues here. Like his assuming you were breaking up with him when you weren't-- he obviously brought in a lot of his own fears  |
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Post by gummydrop on Jan 9, 2019 1:55:58 GMT
I agree with sissyk, looking at patterns in your relationships is helpful. Try writing down a list of all the significant relationships you've had, what their outcome was, what you think went wrong, and how you communicated that. Might find some clues there to help understand yourself.
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Post by 8675309 on Jan 9, 2019 2:53:19 GMT
autumn I have a different perspective than the other commenters. I'd be wondering if I was self-sabotaging too. I suspect you were. The issue is not whether or not this guy was ultimately a good match for you or what he did later, it's what you said to him. Him not being a good match (if that's even the case) is not evidence you weren't self-sabotaging. Self-sabotaging is behavior that goes against your goals. The goals in this case I would assume to be things like becoming more secure, allowing more closeness, getting to know someone properly so you can decide what you want with them rather than quickly pushing them away, etc. I say this as someone who can relate to your story. The reason I think that it is closeness-sabotaging is that it's not helpful to tell someone what they think or feel. To tell someone they aren't over their ex and imply they are looking for a rebound, what was he supposed to say to that? It's like a trap. It comes across like you've already made up your mind and there isn't anything he can do or say. Maybe him responding defensively and explaining how he is so the opposite of that that going forward he only wants to have sex with someone who he wants to marry was not a good response, but what would have been a good response? What would you have believed? You could have asked him open-ended questions and observed his words and actions over time instead. I think secure non self-sabotaging behavior/thoughts that are just about finding out more information about who the person really is and if they are a good potential partner and then making a well-thought out decision to end it look and feel different than insecurely sabotaging any potential relationship that comes your way. This particular guy may not be a good choice for you, but to me that doesn't rule out self-sabotaging. I don't know if I'm explaining this well? I think that what you said about how you are looking for insight into your own behavior is the key. Other people are focussing on whether or not they think he'd be good for you or analyzing the few things we know about him to decide if he is "over" his ex or not. Whether he is a good choice was not what you asked. And I have other things to say about how us FAs can twist things and make it seem like someone is more wrong for us than they are, if you want to hear about that. I have actually misinterpreted or misremembered things people said that I leapt to conclusions about as evidence that they were unsuitable as a partner or going to hurt me. I see some of your points but as someone that is securely attached I see the same things she did. I know what rebound behavior is and will question red flags. Hes not over his ex, its clear as day to me. Hes also moving very fast. Any secure over their ex would not be like this nor move so fast. Bottom line, hes not securely attached, he rushed then ghosted. her feelings are right with him.
Im certainly all for being aware of past behaviors, etc but I say in this case the feelings were on point and her calling him out, Id expect a guy to call me out or be done with me bringing up an ex like that... if hes secure hes going to know Im not over it. I would not even be bringing up an ex unless I was directly asked this early and certainly not while laying in bed even if was complimentary! LOL A secure over their ex would more than likely Never do this... Ive been on the end not over it and the rebound person.
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Post by happyidiot on Jan 9, 2019 7:17:46 GMT
happyidiot - I’m interested in what you have to say in this regard 🙋♀️ not to hijack the post, but I’m curious how FA twist and how you can ever make an FA feel loved and desired who is so full of doubts and feelings of unworthiness?! “And I have other things to say about how us FAs can twist things and make it seem like someone is more wrong for us than they are, if you want to hear about that. I have actually misinterpreted or misremembered things people said that I leapt to conclusions about as evidence that they were unsuitable as a partner or going to hurt me.” (I can post my question elsewhere if OP prefers.) Mostly I'm referring to jumping to conclusions that support an urge to flee or a feeling (even if just a subconscious one) that the person will abandon you. Someone can make a small comment and then it gets inflated in your head into meaning more than was said, or even reworded. I suspect all insecure attachers probably do some misinterpreting/mishearing of what prospective partners say but for different reasons. Examples of this might be things like: - person says they like going to the gym and in your head you convince yourself that they only want to date people who go to the gym too - person says they went through a pretty recent breakup and in your head you decide that "recent" means within the past couple of weeks, rather than asking (and maybe also assume that it was the end of a serious long-term relationship) - person says they are looking for a committed relationship eventually and later you think they said they are looking to get married (I know I have actually remembered someone's words slightly wrong like this, especially good proof is when it was a text message conversation and I re-read what they actually said) - you notice they are wearing a cross necklace and assume that means they are highly religious and would only become serious with someone who is also religious I didn't have a lot of insight into this stuff until I realized I was FA. I did notice it a bit before, but didn't understand what was going on and why. People with less self-insight who are not actively working on their growth probably don't even notice they do it at all. To help people feel loved I guess things like consistency, openness and good communication? And if they can't feel loved, try not to take it personally. I see some of your points but as someone that is securely attached I see the same things she did. I know what rebound behavior is and will question red flags. Hes not over his ex, its clear as day to me. Hes also moving very fast. Any secure over their ex would not be like this nor move so fast. Bottom line, hes not securely attached, he rushed then ghosted. her feelings are right with him. Im certainly all for being aware of past behaviors, etc but I say in this case the feelings were on point and her calling him out, Id expect a guy to call me out or be done with me bringing up an ex like that... if hes secure hes going to know Im not over it. I would not even be bringing up an ex unless I was directly asked this early and certainly not while laying in bed even if was complimentary! LOL A secure over their ex would more than likely Never do this... Ive been on the end not over it and the rebound person. But the question was not does this guy sound secure, or does he sound over his ex. It was could she be engaging in self-sabotaging behaviors. |
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