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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 15:25:01 GMT
I've been looking at a pattern in myself of overgiving, caregiving in relationships. I am naturally generous but seem to tip over the line that feels healthy to me, in intimate relationships. I found a couple of articles that address this in avoidants, but I don't have a history in my browser and can't find them! I was surprised to see this as a trait of DA although I deeply identify with it, just because DA are popularly described as stingy with their time and effort. But, experts with a deep understanding of avoidant attachment validate this pattern.
So, my question specifically for FA and DA alike on this board, do you see the pattern of overgiving and caregiving in your relationships (by YOU), and if so, what have you learned about it, about yourself, about repairing it?
I'm not looking for AP responses to overgiving, although it's a public forum and those contributions could happen. I'm looking specifically for the avoidant experience and process around this, -or- empathetic knowledgeable responses that point toward helpful information (OBJECTIVE INFO) to assist in healing the pattern.
Thanks in advance!
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Post by ocarina on Mar 2, 2019 18:34:53 GMT
Yes - in a word. Caregiving but perhaps not in a conventional sense. Rather I give freely and expect my partner to meet me in the middle - but instead seem to end up with partners who want more and more for me whilst I continue to give, their giving dries up somehow. I also seem to be expected in most relationships, to be the emotionally stable guiderope so to speak - with partners who care more about how I make them feel than about making me feel consistently safe.
It's kind of strange - the giving from my side is really some kind of unconditional acceptance - but it's rarely reciprocated.
I feel that I make a great deal of effort to do the right thing in relationships - but I end up with partners who don't meet me anywhere near that - who adore me because I'm essentially no trouble but never step over their line to meet me in the middle in terms of emotional availability and consistency. I very often feel as though I am carrying the weight of maintaining intimacy and not rocking the boat with a partner who is a bit all over the place. It's possible that because I'm calm and collected I actually attract partners who are not.
I've always not quite located where this is in the DA spectrum generally - as you said @nullified it's not something that I would believe was typical to this attachment type and I am sorry I don't have any great ideas on how to sort this out - although I do believe that with a secure partner willing to give and take on the intimacy front it would be a lot easier.
My gut feeling is that very few people in my society at least, have ever really learnt the skills of being with themselves, of dealing with lifes ups and downs in a healthy way, in a way that doesn't store baggage. This kind of dysfunction passes down through generations and it takes intense and conscious effort to undo these patterns so most people don't - and instead weigh in with blame and go and find a new partner with whom to repeat the dance. Maybe I'm just cynical - but for me, an unavailable partner is just no longer appealing - I'm fine by myself and it would take someone really very self aware and secure who was willing to delve into deep relating with me, for me to jump ship into another relationship at the moment.
Maybe this is typical DA talk - but once you don't need a relationship as such - it becomes all about the relating rather than the need to take something from someone else or give something to them - and the relating takes two aware and willing partners.
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Post by ocarina on Mar 2, 2019 18:38:29 GMT
To add - I seem to add value to a relationship - and then seem driven to add more and more value in terms of achievement, interest, looks etc whilst my partners tend to just sit there being themselves and lap it all up. That's how it feels anyway and it's exhausting for me. When I stop performing often it just falls apart since I've created a monster that expects to be fed. I'm pretty good at making people feel good about themselves - at listening etc and I know I have quite a lot to offer but I would like a partner who was willing and able to also offer of themselves but seem to attract partners who don't - at least not more than superficially.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 2, 2019 18:47:21 GMT
I don't have a specific resource, but an interesting place to dig may be in the articles and books that discuss the DA in terms of low self esteem (as all insecures have in some way) as opposed to the ones that claim DA are high self esteem and don't look at it in a nuanced way. I've seen a lot of that claim, and it's misleading because it's such an oversimplification. I believe over-caregiving tendencies stem partly from self-esteem problems and partly from dynamics growing up.
My suspicion is that, since I think you've said one of your parents was FA, you had to do some amount of managing the adults around you to some extent instead of vice-versa (adults are supposed to manage and help regulate kids). And since avoidants and anxious attract each other, if you have been historically with people romantically extremely high on the anxious side (whether AP or FA, but still relatively high on that side of the spectrum even for the type) who are really emotionally unavailable and unable to self regulate, you've found it normal and comfortable to take on some amount of caregiving and it's gradually normalized and escalated over time until you're doing most of the giving because they weren't doing self work. But it's because when you were less aware and less secure than you are now, you were choosing unhealthy partners. That should naturally correct somewhat on its own with your increased security because you won't accept it.
But since I'm not avoidant, I don't want to give specific suggestions for tactics to continue to work on your end on it to improve your own boundaries in this way. That's just some brainstorming I've gleaned from my experiences and research.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 2, 2019 18:56:12 GMT
There is also the subconscious narrative that I've read DAs have that "others will always expect too much from me," developed from family dynamics and projected. So, if you choose overly anxious partners who actually do, then that's also a way to perpetuate the narrative and get stuck in the pattern.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 19:46:39 GMT
Yes - in a word. Caregiving but perhaps not in a conventional sense. Rather I give freely and expect my partner to meet me in the middle - but instead seem to end up with partners who want more and more for me whilst I continue to give, their giving dries up somehow. I also seem to be expected in most relationships, to be the emotionally stable guiderope so to speak - with partners who care more about how I make them feel than about making me feel consistently safe. It's kind of strange - the giving from my side is really some kind of unconditional acceptance - but it's rarely reciprocated. I feel that I make a great deal of effort to do the right thing in relationships - but I end up with partners who don't meet me anywhere near that - who adore me because I'm essentially no trouble but never step over their line to meet me in the middle in terms of emotional availability and consistency. I very often feel as though I am carrying the weight of maintaining intimacy and not rocking the boat with a partner who is a bit all over the place. It's possible that because I'm calm and collected I actually attract partners who are not. I've always not quite located where this is in the DA spectrum generally - as you said @nullified it's not something that I would believe was typical to this attachment type and I am sorry I don't have any great ideas on how to sort this out - although I do believe that with a secure partner willing to give and take on the intimacy front it would be a lot easier. My gut feeling is that very few people in my society at least, have ever really learnt the skills of being with themselves, of dealing with lifes ups and downs in a healthy way, in a way that doesn't store baggage. This kind of dysfunction passes down through generations and it takes intense and conscious effort to undo these patterns so most people don't - and instead weigh in with blame and go and find a new partner with whom to repeat the dance. Maybe I'm just cynical - but for me, an unavailable partner is just no longer appealing - I'm fine by myself and it would take someone really very self aware and secure who was willing to delve into deep relating with me, for me to jump ship into another relationship at the moment. Maybe this is typical DA talk - but once you don't need a relationship as such - it becomes all about the relating rather than the need to take something from someone else or give something to them - and the relating takes two aware and willing partners. Wow, ocarina, i could have written this word for word, but it helps me tremendously that you did. I read that DA enter the relationship frequently as givers and caretakers because we want a relationship and are able to offer much, but then are confronted with the difficulty of not having the relationship skills to navigate intimacy and old patterns play out. So it isn't that the desire and enthusiasm isn't there, we don't know how to sustain it and are working against our emotional wiring. I also find that my giving is a pattern from childhood. It was one way that I was noticed and appreciated and it feels great to bless someone and feel appreciated and to have a good part of myself received by another person. But, as you said, I end up with partners who are all over the place and don't reciprocate consistently- and that's where my unhappiness comes in. I want reciprocity. I'm going to try to find those articles again that addressed this. Maybe it has something to do with enmeshment , where I've been looked to to meet the emotional needs or carry weight as a child without help. Thank you ocarina. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 19:47:08 GMT
There is also the subconscious narrative that I've read DAs have that "others will always expect too much from me," developed from family dynamics and projected. So, if you choose overly anxious partners who actually do, then that's also a way to perpetuate the narrative and get stuck in the pattern. THIS!! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 19:54:30 GMT
I don't have a specific resource, but an interesting place to dig may be in the articles and books that discuss the DA in terms of low self esteem (as all insecures have in some way) as opposed to the ones that claim DA are high self esteem and don't look at it in a nuanced way. I've seen a lot of that claim, and it's misleading because it's such an oversimplification. I believe over-caregiving tendencies stem partly from self-esteem problems and partly from dynamics growing up My suspicion is that, since I think you've said one of your parents was FA, you had to do some amount of managing the adults around you to some extent instead of vice-versa (adults are supposed to manage and help regulate kids). And since avoidants and anxious attract each other, if you have been historically with people romantically extremely high on the anxious side (whether AP or FA, but still relatively high on that side of the spectrum even for the type) who are really emotionally unavailable and unable to self regulate, you've found it normal and comfortable to take on some amount of caregiving and it's gradually normalized and escalated over time until you're doing most of the giving because they weren't doing self work. But it's because when you were less aware and less secure than you are now, you were choosing unhealthy partners. That should naturally correct somewhat on its own with your increased security because you won't accept it. But since I'm not avoidant, I don't want to give specific suggestions for tactics to continue to work on your end on it to improve your own boundaries in this way. That's just some brainstorming I've gleaned from my experiences and research. Yes, this makes so much sense. In terms of self esteem, I experience healthy levels of self esteem- But it's true that the dynamic of my family had me contributing more than a child typically does. For example, I was making dinner for the family every night, from scratch- say, fried chicken, mashed potatoes and gravy, steamed vegetables, and biscuits and pie, and then also doing dishes... from 11-12 years old. My place in the family has always been cooking for everyone and caregiving that way. Now, I nurture my partners that way also. And the lack of reciprocal giving hurts. I was kind of the mom in the family around mealtime and I don't know why or or what other people were doing, now that I think about it. But I was alone in the kitchen cooking. Weird that I don't know where everyone else was at, and I don't know why this was assigned to me . As I look at my own kids, who are pretty self sufficient , I think- God, that would be too much to ask of them at 11-12. They are older than that now but I don't know why I would ask them to do that unless I was bedridden. I can see asking for help and working together, that's fun and awesome. But the whole duty? A lot!! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 20:02:17 GMT
To add - I seem to add value to a relationship - and then seem driven to add more and more value in terms of achievement, interest, looks etc whilst my partners tend to just sit there being themselves and lap it all up. That's how it feels anyway and it's exhausting for me. When I stop performing often it just falls apart since I've created a monster that expects to be fed. I'm pretty good at making people feel good about themselves - at listening etc and I know I have quite a lot to offer but I would like a partner who was willing and able to also offer of themselves but seem to attract partners who don't - at least not more than superficially. I can relate to this so much I think it's giving me a headache. I have to step back from all this for a day or so because yeah I'm feeling this. |
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Post by ocarina on Mar 2, 2019 20:22:34 GMT
To add - I seem to add value to a relationship - and then seem driven to add more and more value in terms of achievement, interest, looks etc whilst my partners tend to just sit there being themselves and lap it all up. That's how it feels anyway and it's exhausting for me. When I stop performing often it just falls apart since I've created a monster that expects to be fed. I'm pretty good at making people feel good about themselves - at listening etc and I know I have quite a lot to offer but I would like a partner who was willing and able to also offer of themselves but seem to attract partners who don't - at least not more than superficially. I can relate to this so much I think it's giving me a headache. I have to step back from all this for a day or so because yeah I'm feeling this. I am sorry not to be able to offer much in the way of working through this - since I seem to be stuck in this pattern myself. I see relationships as quite simple on the face of it - and yet whenever I get caught up, despite my increasing emotional availability, the cycle repeats itself - partly because I believe I choose emotionally unavailable partners who seem to kind of feed off me. I no longer want to play this game and have worked really hard on this stuff. |
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Post by ocarina on Mar 2, 2019 20:46:41 GMT
One thing that may help a little - when I find myself acting in a way that I can sense is allowing behaviour that is not in by best interest, is a pause and then asking the question
Does this support the life I am trying to create?
Very often when I feel discomfort in a relationship it's because the answer to this question is no - and despite that very often I've lingered because I can tolerate almost immeasurably.
Having a strong sense of what that life is has been important to me and living by the values I have identified, looking at choices and decisions again and again and applying this kind of rationale.
I suspect avoidants tend to be very loathe to have any real needs at all - and as a result can be isolationist in relationships. I no longer want this, but I know it's something I have done in the past.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 2, 2019 20:49:12 GMT
I also find that my giving is a pattern from childhood. It was one way that I was noticed and appreciated and it feels great to bless someone and feel appreciated and to have a good part of myself received by another person.
I definitely think there's some semantics here in regards to "self-esteem," that are a little tough for me to explain at the moment, but you've hit on some of it in here. My overall intent is in suggesting that if you find sources that don't make blanket statements about DAs having high self-esteem, they may be better resources for suggesting solutions because they aren't oversimplfying the attachment challenges.
What I'm attempting to refer to as self-esteem is more sense of self, including self-acceptance and view of self. Where I'm trying to go with that is, even if you feel whole as an individual and have a strong sense of agency yet still have an insecure attachment style (or childhood roots in one), there may be some dysfunction still embedded in everything wrapped up with that. Specifically, if you generally found your adult caretakers gave you "conditional" love, or were neglectful and barely gave any at all, then this is going to impact your own ability to feel loved for who you are instead of what you can do for someone else. So in a way, that's an insecurity, that you've been conditioned to feel more "love" that you may or may not be able to provide for yourself, if you engage in certain giving behaviors. I may also be off base here, and as you said this thread has already given you plenty to think about, but it may still be another layer worth considering when thinking about how you define your own value and what motivates some of your behaviors.
More simply put: it sounds like you felt neglected as a kid in general, yet appreciated during those times you made dinner. That felt like a more calm and connected time for you, where you were getting some of your emotional needs met that generally went unmet. So that all got embedded in your subconscious and conditioning, which may be part of what makes it difficult for you to stay on the healthy side of the interdependence and giving boundary (especially if you're dating anxious insecurely attached people, with bad or no boundaries themselves).
Also, I'm sorry that way too much was expected of you at a young age :/
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 22:03:31 GMT
I also find that my giving is a pattern from childhood. It was one way that I was noticed and appreciated and it feels great to bless someone and feel appreciated and to have a good part of myself received by another person.
I definitely think there's some semantics here in regards to "self-esteem," that are a little tough for me to explain at the moment, but you've hit on some of it in here. My overall intent is in suggesting that if you find sources that don't make blanket statements about DAs having high self-esteem, they may be better resources for suggesting solutions because they aren't oversimplfying the attachment challenges.
What I'm attempting to refer to as self-esteem is more sense of self, including self-acceptance and view of self. Where I'm trying to go with that is, even if you feel whole as an individual and have a strong sense of agency yet still have an insecure attachment style (or childhood roots in one), there may be some dysfunction still embedded in everything wrapped up with that. Specifically, if you generally found your adult caretakers gave you "conditional" love, or were neglectful and barely gave any at all, then this is going to impact your own ability to feel loved for who you are instead of what you can do for someone else. So in a way, that's an insecurity, that you've been conditioned to feel more "love" that you may or may not be able to provide for yourself, if you engage in certain giving behaviors. I may also be off base here, and as you said this thread has already given you plenty to think about, but it may still be another layer worth considering when thinking about how you define your own value and what motivates some of your behaviors.
More simply put: it sounds like you felt neglected as a kid in general, yet appreciated during those times you made dinner. That felt like a more calm and connected time for you, where you were getting some of your emotional needs met that generally went unmet. So that all got embedded in your subconscious and conditioning, which may be part of what makes it difficult for you to stay on the healthy side of the interdependence and giving boundary (especially if you're dating anxious insecurely attached people, with bad or no boundaries themselves).
Also, I'm sorry that way too much was expected of you at a young age :/
Yes, I can appreciate what you're saying. And thank you for your kind words. Where I am at with this right now, is to remain aware of my giving habits, and press the pause button on generosity u til I have a better sense of what is going on. I would say that in general I do have a healthy sense of worth and self and that of course, in intimate relationship, I have NOT experienced healthy love and support. So while I don't think it's tied to general self esteem, I think it is tied to trust actually. Trusting that there isn't a catch, that the love is genuine. Having been with emotionally unavailable partners, this cannot be true. Because of the nature of insecure attachment. Therefore, it would make sense that I would turn to giving behaviors that mimic my origins . So it make sense but I'm just done doing that. I love myself enough to have had enough of that pattern. It feels very uncomfortable to me, and it feels NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Not me that is not good enough , it's the situation that isn't good enough. The goal is to bring it all to consciousness and improve my awareness of what love feels like, what I feel like inside, in relationships. Listen to my inner voice that says "This doesn't feel right, safe, relaxing, nurturing". I have noticed in this past relationship, that I became aware and cared enough about my needs and self and feelings enough to say "This does not feel safe. This doesn't not feel consistent and like I can relax.". I do have relationships that are reciprocal. That feel safe and consistent and nurturing. So I need to apply my best standards to the closest relationships of all and stop settling. To do so will require turning my attention continuously to the moment and what is going on inside of me, and addressing it there. Thank you very much for your helpful feedback!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2019 1:00:35 GMT
One thing that may help a little - when I find myself acting in a way that I can sense is allowing behaviour that is not in by best interest, is a pause and then asking the question Does this support the life I am trying to create? Very often when I feel discomfort in a relationship it's because the answer to this question is no - and despite that very often I've lingered because I can tolerate almost immeasurably. Having a strong sense of what that life is has been important to me and living by the values I have identified, looking at choices and decisions again and again and applying this kind of rationale. I suspect avoidants tend to be very loathe to have any real needs at all - and as a result can be isolationist in relationships. I no longer want this, but I know it's something I have done in the past. Yep, relatable. I have caught myself saying "I can handle it.". That used to be a habitual, automatic response. Tolerating stuff just because I could handle it. My standard is higher now, and that's not an automatic thought. I find myself automatically saying my FEELINGS in my mind. I'm in touch more. So I notice when my inner voice says "I don't like this, it doesn't feel good." or "This feels lonely. I prefer my own company to this association, because it's not warm to me." Old habits of coping and tolerating still impose but I'm aware and am much less stuck. But I am definitely in a place of fine tuning all this and really knowing what works and what doesn't work for me, where I can compromise and where I can't. Being in touch with my feelings about it all is very helpful. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2019 2:05:54 GMT
ocarina, something to consider also, is that most DA info seems to be talking about DA MEN. Mr. Unavailable. Bad Boyfriends, blah blah blah. So here we are, mothers, women. nurturers, etc lumped in with a predominately masculine stereotype. There are some feminine traits of caregiving that exist in us naturally. As for me, the neglect and enmeshment in my family of origin seems to exacerbated this whole business of meeting everyone else's needs and minimizing my own. Just because it's expected. Just brainstorming. Also, an aside. I was talking to a male friend, he overheard a bit of a phone conversation with my ex before I made him my ex. I got off the phone and was irritated, it was one more blindside of negativity and nerves, insecurity and discontent from him. Oops, I thought we were good. Silly me. I turned to my friend and said "I can't do this. He's always nervous." I mean, it was the beginning of the real end. My friend said something that will stick with me forever. "Get rid of that. You can't be with someone who is nervous and sees nothing but trouble all the time. It changes who you are. It literally changes who you are if you let it. " Wise words. I've thought of this a lot lately, and it came to mind reading one of your posts in this thread where you wrote about making other people feel good, listening, etc. There's a limit. Learning where that limit is.
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