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Post by anne12 on Apr 26, 2019 12:56:35 GMT
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 26, 2019 14:22:30 GMT
I know this was not addressed to me and I hope it is ok to speak to this...the above, although extremely sound and logical, goes against my AP mantra in my head to “never give up on someone I care about”. I am working on changing that tape or at least being aware of it playing in the background...but cutting ties is a real challenge for me, and I think that may be why some people hang on to unavailable partners. Embracing an attitude of “this is a waste of my time” does not compute because I oftentimes find myself looking at potential and possibility versus what is really there...so I conveniently gloss over the “unavailable” part and cling to what is “potential”, which I think happens a lot in insecure pairings. Thank you for letting me explore this a bit a speak to a deep seated issue that I am working on. Of course. It seems to me that what you are doing is an extreme form of emotional unavailability. In yourself. You are able to keep the relationship alive and even feel "connection" without being detected when you stalk on social media. The entire relationship exists only as a potential in your imagination and keeps you solidly unavailable for a partner, or even your healthier self. You are entertaining potential for a relationship that he is oblivious to- and it's you doing it. I'd say you can't get more emotionally unavailable than that. It is a fantasy relationship that takes up the relationship space in your life. And it doesn't exist. It's not real. It's fascinating to see both sides of the unavailable spectrum, in a way. AP's are unavailable too but their enormous burden of emotions masquerade as emotional availability. What a conundrum for all insecure types. I think a person isn't done until they are done, though. And when you're done, it gets a whole lot simpler. Oh...you mean about B....yeh...that is a struggle I fully own and I own that it does make me unavailable to other potential partners. Right now, I am practicing letting go....but it is in incredibly small increments (more along the lines of giving space to the reality that a friendship on his terms is all I will ever get)...still...I feel vastly better and I truly love the “me” that is showing up in the process. I agree that AP is just as unavailable...just in a different way. There was a time I would have been incredibly defensive because what you are suggesting threatens the norm...it threatens a well grooved pattern of being in the world...and to some degree, those patterns feel like they are me. It has taken a lot of work to hold the little girl as separate from the patterns she formed..meaning, I can own the patterns and change them without feeling like I am rejecting me in the process. That is what I love about these boards and about the different people who post here...out vantage point may be different...but we all seek healing. 💕💕 |
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Post by 8675309 on Apr 26, 2019 15:55:03 GMT
I personally don’t want avoidant friends that are not aware either. You should not have to work at a friendship like that. Friendships are supposed to be easy not work like an intimate relationship. Those actually take work.
Why would I want to be friends with someone that could easily ditch plans with me, etc when they are triggered?
You need to have secure or aware people in your life, the rest is just toxic. Life is short don’t waste time with people who can’t meet needs or just be there as a friend.
People need to look within on why they would want anyone in their life they can’t count on.
My avoidant and I are ‘friends ‘ but it’s friends from afar as in no hard feelings when we run into each other. We can say hello or smile and carry on with our life with no animosity. As we will run into each other this summer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 16:05:13 GMT
I personally don’t want avoidant friends that are not aware either. You should not have to work at a friendship like that. Friendships are supposed to be easy not work like an intimate relationship. Those actually take work. Why would I want to be friends with someone that could easily ditch plans with me, etc when they are triggered? You need to have secure or aware people in your life, the rest is just toxic. Life is short don’t waste time with people who can’t meet needs or just be there as a friend. People need to look within on why they would want anyone in their life they can’t count on. My avoidant and I are ‘friends ‘ but it’s friends from afar as in no hard feelings when we run into each other. We can say hello or smile and carry on with our life with no animosity. As we will run into each other this summer. I totally agree- healthy friendships don't involve much drama and intensity. I've found that healthy, secure friendships are a great model for healthier romantic relationships. If the drama and confusion factor is high, it's an indication that old patterns are presenting. That said, we find our own level. So if we are with a difficult partner we need to look within at our difficulty and find the connection to our unresolved past. |
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Post by unluckyinlove on Apr 26, 2019 16:06:16 GMT
Thanks for the dialogue from all perspectives. mrob yes after our conversation yesterday I'm beginning to think he's more FA than DA. OMG the things he says makes me think he's really my EX with a different name and face....only he's worse! happyidiot Our friendship is more than just acquaintances...we do have 142 mutual friends and our lives are pretty entwined. I've had a closer friendship with his brother over the years. We frequent the same places and every time we see each other out we have conversations, but he's not someone I call or see regularly. The sex was definitely a result of two lonely people, confused/bruised in their lives (and a bit of whiskey involved). It was definitely a premature act. But I'm not calling him Avoidant (whether DA or FA) based on him pulling away and feeling conflicted after sex. We've been having conversations for two months where he's adamantly told me he does NOT want just a "F buddy"....he wants more than friends.....intimacy, someone to talk to and do things with, a sexual relationship (just not so soon). After many intimate conversations, we move two months later into a sexual situation and then suddenly he's saying he doesn't think he's capable of a relationship. I was totally ready to let him go when he told me he felt conflicted. But after he told me he was conflicted, he asked if we could still talk because he enjoyed the intimate conversations. My need for the conversation with him was to gather more information about where his head is so I could determine if I am healed enough to continue HIS request for intimacy (knowing that I also crave it). I needed to know if he had just "changed his mind" about what he wanted or if he was still "confused" about what he wanted. Changing your mind...although pretty crappy after you sleep with me....is at least not necessarily an "avoidant" decision and I could honor his request to continue conversations. But being a confused and fearful man is triggering to me as I am still healing from a confused and fearful man. Actually I'm proud of myself because I feel like I AM making a secure move. Post conversation, I feel like I got my answer. He's still interested....and he's still confused about what he wants. H'e still describing a relationship and then saying he doesn't want one. This doesn't work for me so I have decided that I do need to pull back....and I'm not talking about cutting him out of my life with no contact. I'm just talking about pulling back because I don't want him to pull me into a "non-relationship" relationship. He's already trying to do all of this on HIS terms and it's not sitting well with me. I have a sushi date lined up with another guy who's been showing some interest. We'll see how that goes  |
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Post by unluckyinlove on Apr 26, 2019 16:09:44 GMT
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Post by sissyk on Apr 26, 2019 19:35:29 GMT
Glad the conversation went well! You seem to be pretty clear eyed about the dynamic and what you are and are not willing to tolerate, which is great!
As perhaps an aside....I'm not sure I agree with the argument building that if a FRIENDSHIP (not partnership) isn't smooth sailing than it should be tossed out in the rubbish if it isn't meeting your needs. That sounds a little self serving and transactional.
It is a big old world and there are complicated people out there who make wonderful if not always easy friends and deserve some hanging in there. Sometimes you can grow a lot by putting up with SOME mess in someone else--as they likely do with you.
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Post by unluckyinlove on Apr 26, 2019 20:20:33 GMT
Unlucky--Glad the conversation went well! You seem to be pretty clear eyed about the dynamic and what you are and are not willing to tolerate, which is great! As perhaps an aside....I'm not sure I agree with the argument building that if a FRIENDSHIP (not partnership) isn't smooth sailing than it should be tossed out in the rubbish if it isn't meeting your needs. That sounds a little self serving and transactional. It is a big old world and there are complicated people out there who make wonderful if not always easy friends and deserve some hanging in there. Sometimes you can grow a lot by putting up with SOME mess in someone else--as they likely do with you. Oh I don't plan to throw away the friendship at all. I have plenty of friends that are far from perfect and I'm totally accommodating...until of course they start becoming toxic to me. In this case, he asked for intimacy, hanging out and doing things and an eventual sexual relationship. I'm not down with his terms and I think it starts by pulling way from the intimate conversation. If he reaches out, I'll definitely engage......as a friend, but I'm making a conscious choice to detach emotionally, NOT to reach out to him directly and I'm going to try to keep the conversation light as much as possible if and when he does reach out. I have no intentions of ending a 15 year friendship because he's wounded and scared....he's not a bad guy. I just have to protect myself too. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 20:49:07 GMT
Unlucky--Glad the conversation went well! You seem to be pretty clear eyed about the dynamic and what you are and are not willing to tolerate, which is great! As perhaps an aside....I'm not sure I agree with the argument building that if a FRIENDSHIP (not partnership) isn't smooth sailing than it should be tossed out in the rubbish if it isn't meeting your needs. That sounds a little self serving and transactional. It is a big old world and there are complicated people out there who make wonderful if not always easy friends and deserve some hanging in there. Sometimes you can grow a lot by putting up with SOME mess in someone else--as they likely do with you. Who said toss a friendship if it isn't smooth sailing and doesn't meet your needs? What I refer to is drama and confusion, toxicity. Secure friendships do have ups and downs and. one here denies that, no one is necessarily self serving or transactional. Knowing what the dynamic is and weather it is healthy or not is up to an individual. Yep - a big difference between relationship challenges or personal challenges and dysfunctional toxic dynamics. I've got plenty of relationships that meet both individual's needs that don't involve pausing and breaking and inconsistency and sexual shenanigans and needing to figure it out on the internet! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 21:18:35 GMT
Unlucky--Glad the conversation went well! You seem to be pretty clear eyed about the dynamic and what you are and are not willing to tolerate, which is great! As perhaps an aside....I'm not sure I agree with the argument building that if a FRIENDSHIP (not partnership) isn't smooth sailing than it should be tossed out in the rubbish if it isn't meeting your needs. That sounds a little self serving and transactional. It is a big old world and there are complicated people out there who make wonderful if not always easy friends and deserve some hanging in there. Sometimes you can grow a lot by putting up with SOME mess in someone else--as they likely do with you. Also, the new terms of engagement that OP proposes change the friend dynamic quite a bit, into one that is not mutual and reciprocal. Perhaps the meaning of the word "friend" is different between individual posters, as well. I consider friends to be inner circle people in my life. These are the people I confide in; we check in on each other to see how the other is doing, support each other through thick and thin. The boundaries of 1) Not reaching out directly 2) Keeping it light if he makes contact 3) Steering away from intimate conversations all preclude the term "friend" as I mean it here. I do not have friends that limit themselves with me the way OP now will with this guy. Is her approach then self serving or transactional? Not necessarily. But it's not what I personally consider maintaining a real friendship, which has an emotional intimacy component as well as practical reciprocity. |
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Post by ocarina on Apr 26, 2019 21:22:00 GMT
This is a really interesting discussion - I've been thinking lately on my friendship with my long term relationship ex partner. I know deep down that I am using it to remain unavailable. I do enjoy his company - he's interesting and we have a kind of comforting familiarity which makes me feel at home. BUT the at home ness is part in the pattern - of his not replying to texts, being full on friendly and loving one minute and disappearing with no communication for days the next, of then suddenly showing up with a gift. Of not replying yes or no when I invite him somewhere.
I think as a DA there's a bizarre safety in all this for me - even though deep down I would like a real present committed relationship and I know I am not going to get it from him.
I find myself deciding to let go of even friendship - and then he resurfaces with some kind of appealing invitation or a gift or something and almost out of politeness, I step back into the dance.
He has almost become my phantom ex so I don't have to go there again with anyone else - despite the fact I don't idolise him or want to control him into becoming a partner for me again - I find it hard to not engage and that's frustrating because in al honesty, there are times when his lack of communication and support are just down right rude....
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Post by 8675309 on Apr 26, 2019 21:22:18 GMT
Yes, Sherry. I did not mean just toss one aside as nobody is perfect. Friendships are smooth sailing in general even with some ups/downs.
APs would tend to hang on to something when a secure won’t even with a friendship. I don’t have an AP mindset when I speak here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 21:32:41 GMT
This is a really interesting discussion - I've been thinking lately on my friendship with my long term relationship ex partner. I know deep down that I am using it to remain unavailable. I do enjoy his company - he's interesting and we have a kind of comforting familiarity which makes me feel at home. BUT the at home ness is part in the pattern - of his not replying to texts, being full on friendly and loving one minute and disappearing with no communication for days the next, of then suddenly showing up with a gift. Of not replying yes or no when I invite him somewhere. I think as a DA there's a bizarre safety in all this for me - even though deep down I would like a real present committed relationship and I know I am not going to get it from him. I find myself deciding to let go of even friendship - and then he resurfaces with some kind of appealing invitation or a gift or something and almost out of politeness, I step back into the dance. He has almost become my phantom ex so I don't have to go there again with anyone else - despite the fact I don't idolise him or want to control him into becoming a partner for me again - I find it hard to not engage and that's frustrating because in al honesty, there are times when his lack of communication and support are just down right rude.... I've been in the exact same spot with an avoidant ex before. I discovered over time that his incapacity for consistency was uncomfortable and in fact, rude and left me hanging too often. It was very much on his terms, and I also used it to hide out from being romantically available to someone else. I dropped it, we are friendly acquaintances who don't hang out, so not occupy a companionship role in each other's lives. I feel peaceful and at ease and available for what I want both in platonic and romantic relationships. What I find is that good relationships don't feel bad consistently (actually ever. Challenges don't have to be painful and alienating...they can be met together in a true friendship) and I don't have to think about them and justify my involvement or question if it's good for me and figure out if it's worth the effort. The friendship turned out to be just the death throes of a relationship that sucked. I don't mind letting it go. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 21:33:40 GMT
Yes, Sherry. I did not mean just toss one aside as nobody is perfect. Friendships are smooth sailing in general even with some ups/downs. APs would tend to hang on to something when a secure won’t even with a friendship. I don’t have an AP mindset when I speak here. Exactly. Here, addressing the AP tendency to preserve at all cost to themselves. I hear you |
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Post by ocarina on Apr 26, 2019 21:36:33 GMT
This is a really interesting discussion - I've been thinking lately on my friendship with my long term relationship ex partner. I know deep down that I am using it to remain unavailable. I do enjoy his company - he's interesting and we have a kind of comforting familiarity which makes me feel at home. BUT the at home ness is part in the pattern - of his not replying to texts, being full on friendly and loving one minute and disappearing with no communication for days the next, of then suddenly showing up with a gift. Of not replying yes or no when I invite him somewhere. I think as a DA there's a bizarre safety in all this for me - even though deep down I would like a real present committed relationship and I know I am not going to get it from him. I find myself deciding to let go of even friendship - and then he resurfaces with some kind of appealing invitation or a gift or something and almost out of politeness, I step back into the dance. He has almost become my phantom ex so I don't have to go there again with anyone else - despite the fact I don't idolise him or want to control him into becoming a partner for me again - I find it hard to not engage and that's frustrating because in al honesty, there are times when his lack of communication and support are just down right rude.... I've been in the exact same spot with an avoidant ex before. I discovered over time that his incapacity for consistency was uncomfortable and in fact, rude and left me hanging too often. It was very much on his terms, and I also used it to hide out from being romantically available to someone else. I dropped it, we are friendly acquaintances who don't hang out, so not occupy a companionship role in each other's lives. I feel peaceful and at ease and available for what I want both in platonic and romantic relationships. What I find is that good relationships don't feel bad consistently (actually ever. Challenges don't have to be painful and alienating...they can be met together in a true friendship) and I don't have to think about them and justify my involvement or question if it's good for me and figure out if it's worth the effort. The friendship turned out to be just the death throes of a relationship that sucked. I don't mind letting it go. I'm interested to know @sherry - how did you put the brakes on the friendship? I'm finding it difficult to actually truly detach - almost out of politeness as I said before - and because it's become habitual.
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