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Post by tnr9 on May 1, 2019 16:57:15 GMT
I know this was not addressed to me and I hope it is ok to speak to this...the above, although extremely sound and logical, goes against my AP mantra in my head to “never give up on someone I care about”. I am working on changing that tape or at least being aware of it playing in the background...but cutting ties is a real challenge for me, and I think that may be why some people hang on to unavailable partners. Embracing an attitude of “this is a waste of my time” does not compute because I oftentimes find myself looking at potential and possibility versus what is really there...so I conveniently gloss over the “unavailable” part and cling to what is “potential”, which I think happens a lot in insecure pairings. Thank you for letting me explore this a bit a speak to a deep seated issue that I am working on. Yes, it's definitely not easy! But change is possible. Getting stuck on potential and having trouble letting go is a huge problem for APs and AP-leaning FAs. I used to totally have the same problem. What do you think serves you about telling yourself to never give up on someone you care about? And what do those words mean to you? happyidiot , isn't it incredible when you realize that feeling horrible is a choice? When the role is anchoice? Of course you're going to feel sad and angry and stressed and confused with a partner who is inconsistent and emotionally unhealthy. There's only so much you can do to grow in such a situation before you realize, uh, the situation doesn't fit me anymore. It's just so empowering to realize that everything involves a choice. It doesn't make it easy- but it simplifies things. I've learned to be a lot more conscious in my choices. Make the tough ones. Deal with the risks. Be myself, full on. Say what I'm thinking and feeling. Know and say what I need and want. It gets easier and easier and I don't feel alone because I haven't abandoned myself for some other lost soul. I know exactly where I am at with me and really, that's the best feeling. Absolutely. We of course need to have compassion for ourselves and understand our choices are shaped by everything that has happened in our lives up to that moment, but it's so refreshing to start realizing that we actually have a lot of choice and we CAN make better choices even if they are scary. I used to feel like it was impossible for me to be without someone I loved or that feeling drawn to someone meant I had to be with them, for example. It really does get easier and easier each time. Just again to be honest...I don’t think it is something I look upon as serving me....I see it more as a survival technique that does not want to budge. Even the question of what I gain is met with huge internal resistance/defensiveness as the response is...”it just is.” I cannot speak to what I gain...but I can speak to what I will lose if I give up....and that is hope and a chance and there is also this tape about giving what I want to receive and I want someone to not give up on me....likely stems from the divorce where I felt my dad had clearly given up on me and my brothers through his actions (cheating on our mother and eventually marrying that woman and then choosing his new family over us....very fragile times and I do so appreciate the desire to not give up on someone i love....it just gets channeled down a very frustrating and often hurtful path..as if the insecure recipient is simply holding out and with enough love and stick to it by me, that person will soften and grow to love me back in the same way). This is just what has come out on the last 10 minutes of pondering your question. Not sure if that helps. |
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Post by happyidiot on May 2, 2019 7:01:13 GMT
Yes, it's definitely not easy! But change is possible. Getting stuck on potential and having trouble letting go is a huge problem for APs and AP-leaning FAs. I used to totally have the same problem. What do you think serves you about telling yourself to never give up on someone you care about? And what do those words mean to you? Absolutely. We of course need to have compassion for ourselves and understand our choices are shaped by everything that has happened in our lives up to that moment, but it's so refreshing to start realizing that we actually have a lot of choice and we CAN make better choices even if they are scary. I used to feel like it was impossible for me to be without someone I loved or that feeling drawn to someone meant I had to be with them, for example. It really does get easier and easier each time. Just again to be honest...I don’t think it is something I look upon as serving me....I see it more as a survival technique that does not want to budge. Even the question of what I gain is met with huge internal resistance/defensiveness as the response is...”it just is.” I cannot speak to what I gain...but I can speak to what I will lose if I give up....and that is hope and a chance and there is also this tape about giving what I want to receive and I want someone to not give up on me....likely stems from the divorce where I felt my dad had clearly given up on me and my brothers through his actions (cheating on our mother and eventually marrying that woman and then choosing his new family over us....very fragile times and I do so appreciate the desire to not give up on someone i love....it just gets channeled down a very frustrating and often hurtful path..as if the insecure recipient is simply holding out and with enough love and stick to it by me, that person will soften and grow to love me back in the same way). This is just what has come out on the last 10 minutes of pondering your question. Not sure if that helps. So if you see telling yourself to "never give up on someone you care about" as only a maladaptive survival mechanism that no longer serves you, what purpose did it once serve? When I examined the "never give up on someone you care about" thought in myself I concluded that it had a couple purposes. Maybe yours are different, but these are some of mine. One was that it was "useful" as a way of rationalizing doing things that were harming me, like staying with people who were unhealthy for me to be with or clinging onto people who were not fully there or had left me. And like you, I had the belief of "treating others the way I wanted to be treated", which is also a rationalization, because in reality if I left someone I probably actually would NOT want them obsessing and pining and pleading and never stopping trying to get me back. Letting go of someone or something is not really "giving up". Letting go is healthy for you and the other person. It's relinquishing control. It isn't abandoning them in their time of need. It is not the same as doing what the people who hurt and left us did to us. So I guess for myself I see the belief that by clinging or hoping I'm just "not giving up on people I love" as just a way to feel better about doing things that aren't good for me, to imagine it is coming from a noble place. |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 16:23:29 GMT
It may be worth noting that it's very unrealistic to believe that an avoidant would appreciate unchecked AP behavior, and see it as "not giving up on them". Instead, stalking and obsessing and pining would likely be seen as toxic and oppressive and a huge boundary violation. Avoidants are attracted to AP initially because we lack the internal momentum to establish a relationship, and the "moving toward" energy of an AP seems to make up for our "moving away". However, the real deal is that the unhealthy clinging and emotional dependence of the AP triggers old enmeshment, control, and emotional neglect that we experienced in our early years. We have to get healthy in order to have a relationship, we can't rely on an unhealthy mate. This goes both ways, of course.
Yes, an unhealthy AP delivers emotional neglect, while they are pursuing validation, reassurance, and a fix for their trigger. At that point, they are controlled by unconscious attachment needs and are not loving from a healthy, mutual place of interdependence. This is true of any triggered insecure.
I am a big believer in conducting yourself in private as you would in front of your mate. That means, don't snoop, spy, stalk. If you are doing something in private that you would not willingly admit or do in front of the object of your affection, that's a big red flag. Any avoidant made aware of these behaviors would run for the hills.
I'm just trying to give a reality check on the rationalizations. An avoidant, just like any insecure, benefits most from being with a healthy secure partner who can help them grow toward security. Any hope of winning them back ought to include solid, demonstrable growth toward real security, not deep entrenchment in AP patterns. I think if you really love someone you can demonstrate that with real growth and change. That's what love takes.
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Post by sissyk on May 5, 2019 13:09:46 GMT
It may be worth noting that it's very unrealistic to believe that an avoidant would appreciate unchecked AP behavior, and see it as "not giving up on them". Instead, stalking and obsessing and pining would likely be seen as toxic and oppressive and a huge boundary violation. Avoidants are attracted to AP initially because we lack the internal momentum to establish a relationship, and the "moving toward" energy of an AP seems to make up for our "moving away". However, the real deal is that the unhealthy clinging and emotional dependence of the AP triggers old enmeshment, control, and emotional neglect that we experienced in our early years. We have to get healthy in order to have a relationship, we can't rely on an unhealthy mate. This goes both ways, of course. Yes, an unhealthy AP delivers emotional neglect, while they are pursuing validation, reassurance, and a fix for their trigger. At that point, they are controlled by unconscious attachment needs and are not loving from a healthy, mutual place of interdependence. This is true of any triggered insecure. I am a big believer in conducting yourself in private as you would in front of your mate. That means, don't snoop, spy, stalk. If you are doing something in private that you would not willingly admit or do in front of the object of your affection, that's a big red flag. Any avoidant made aware of these behaviors would run for the hills. I'm just trying to give a reality check on the rationalizations. An avoidant, just like any insecure, benefits most from being with a healthy secure partner who can help them grow toward security. Any hope of winning them back ought to include solid, demonstrable growth toward real security, not deep entrenchment in AP patterns. I think if you really love someone you can demonstrate that with real growth and change. That's what love takes. I think it is brave of you to state your honest thinking here and perhaps understanding is a good step towards your questioning and rejecting some of those unhelpful beliefs. As perhaps an aside on this discussion @sherry ....I was really interested in this part of your comment An avoidant, just like any insecure, benefits most from being with a healthy secure partner who can help them grow toward security. What would that look like in day to day behavior and interaction do you think? I ask because that positive healing dynamic almost never seems to play out on these boards..... What does seem to happen on these boards is that DAFA's behavior can bring out the insecure/anxious in even otherwise fairly secure people.....The force field works the other way  That steadying influence of a secure might happen often in *real life* but the partners are now off blissfully windsurfing or something and not posting on these boards trying to figure out what just happened |
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Post by tnr9 on May 5, 2019 14:32:04 GMT
Just again to be honest...I don’t think it is something I look upon as serving me....I see it more as a survival technique that does not want to budge. Even the question of what I gain is met with huge internal resistance/defensiveness as the response is...”it just is.” I cannot speak to what I gain...but I can speak to what I will lose if I give up....and that is hope and a chance and there is also this tape about giving what I want to receive and I want someone to not give up on me....likely stems from the divorce where I felt my dad had clearly given up on me and my brothers through his actions (cheating on our mother and eventually marrying that woman and then choosing his new family over us....very fragile times and I do so appreciate the desire to not give up on someone i love....it just gets channeled down a very frustrating and often hurtful path..as if the insecure recipient is simply holding out and with enough love and stick to it by me, that person will soften and grow to love me back in the same way). This is just what has come out on the last 10 minutes of pondering your question. Not sure if that helps. So if you see telling yourself to "never give up on someone you care about" as only a maladaptive survival mechanism that no longer serves you, what purpose did it once serve? When I examined the "never give up on someone you care about" thought in myself I concluded that it had a couple purposes. Maybe yours are different, but these are some of mine. One was that it was "useful" as a way of rationalizing doing things that were harming me, like staying with people who were unhealthy for me to be with or clinging onto people who were not fully there or had left me. And like you, I had the belief of "treating others the way I wanted to be treated", which is also a rationalization, because in reality if I left someone I probably actually would NOT want them obsessing and pining and pleading and never stopping trying to get me back. Letting go of someone or something is not really "giving up". Letting go is healthy for you and the other person. It's relinquishing control. It isn't abandoning them in their time of need. It is not the same as doing what the people who hurt and left us did to us. So I guess for myself I see the belief that by clinging or hoping I'm just "not giving up on people I love" as just a way to feel better about doing things that aren't good for me, to imagine it is coming from a noble place. I think the issue with answering that very logical question is I regress into that little girl and in that regressed space...all I feel is shame...so it s not an easy task to get to the answers. Right now....my goal is not answers but acceptance. I think we all have our own road to healing and mine is not going to look the same as others...it certainly won’t look the same as someone who has, in the course of their upbringing, developed a strong sense of self and solid boundaries. I realize that many people want to help me “heal”, “grow” and “change” for the better...I do appreciate the sincere effort. My greatest goal right now is to accept who I am as I am right now. I spent a lovely 2 days with friends...seeing a concert, going to a museum....had my phone on airplane mode the whole time. That is growth for me and I will take it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 14:32:17 GMT
sissyk Not making everything about rejection and triggers is a good place to start! www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-avoiding-rejection-actually-opens-you-up-to-more-why-its-not-always-rejection/She asks a good question: does it always have to be about you? "people not doing what you want isn't rejection or abandonment; it's people doing their own thing." That applies on this board as well as in life. Not everything is about rejection, shaming, abandonment ... whatever triggers you. Own your triggers, and allow others to disagree and have their own viewpoint without as Natalie says "taking it to the nth degree and making everything about me".
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 14:53:08 GMT
Here's another good article, sissyk. - she uses some tough talk about using obsession as a way to avoid action and because one "can't be arsed" to have to put themselves back out there. She talks about "waking up" and "taking responsibility" and giving up control. I'm sure it would be seen as sone kind of horrible abandonment and abuse of a DA spoke like that here haha! But remember- not everything is about rejection and abandonment and if it feels better coming from someone formerly AP then there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth . www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/stop-ruminating-stop-obsessing-very-little-is-going-to-happen-without-action/ |
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Post by tnr9 on May 5, 2019 15:11:58 GMT
It may be worth noting that it's very unrealistic to believe that an avoidant would appreciate unchecked AP behavior, and see it as "not giving up on them". Instead, stalking and obsessing and pining would likely be seen as toxic and oppressive and a huge boundary violation. Avoidants are attracted to AP initially because we lack the internal momentum to establish a relationship, and the "moving toward" energy of an AP seems to make up for our "moving away". However, the real deal is that the unhealthy clinging and emotional dependence of the AP triggers old enmeshment, control, and emotional neglect that we experienced in our early years. We have to get healthy in order to have a relationship, we can't rely on an unhealthy mate. This goes both ways, of course. Yes, an unhealthy AP delivers emotional neglect, while they are pursuing validation, reassurance, and a fix for their trigger. At that point, they are controlled by unconscious attachment needs and are not loving from a healthy, mutual place of interdependence. This is true of any triggered insecure. I am a big believer in conducting yourself in private as you would in front of your mate. That means, don't snoop, spy, stalk. If you are doing something in private that you would not willingly admit or do in front of the object of your affection, that's a big red flag. Any avoidant made aware of these behaviors would run for the hills. I'm just trying to give a reality check on the rationalizations. An avoidant, just like any insecure, benefits most from being with a healthy secure partner who can help them grow toward security. Any hope of winning them back ought to include solid, demonstrable growth toward real security, not deep entrenchment in AP patterns. I think if you really love someone you can demonstrate that with real growth and change. That's what love takes. I do appreciate you sharing this Sherry...the more I reflect on who I am attracted to....the more I realize it is men with Fearful Attachment. Not saying that it makes the obsessing etc ok....but I found there was a bit more acceptance of my AP behaviors. I can’t speak for others with AP, but what I have come to understand about myself is that I developed an enmeshment perspective....a caretaker, rescuing perspective...that came in some part from the divorce and feeling responsible for the divorce, but more so, feeling responsible to make my mom feel ok. She did not ask that of me...I took on that role...whereas...she did, in very overt ways, make my brother feel responsible for her...and he has definitely developed a DA perspective because of it. So what I am working on is to see myself as an autonomous person, separate from others....and to bring “choice” into interactions versus feeling “compelled” to do certain things. In a very awesome way...the sheer act of defining myself and developing my own boundaries has helped with the AP behaviors. On a separate note...I am truly sorry for what you had to endure as a child. I don’t know your unique childhood, but having watched my 7 year old brother be expected to be a “man” was absolutely horrifying. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 17:11:20 GMT
tnr9 I'm glad you can see where I am coming from without taking it too personally. The fact is that all of us with insecure attachment did suffer but in most cases I truly believe it was not intentional neglect from caregivers- just insecure attachment in their own lives and other things that impacted their ability to care both for themselves and us as children. Recognizing that it's a cycle of pain that can be worked with and healed (over a lifetime I think!) is very empowering. And it also introduces compassion for our parents, and ourselves, our partners. One of the most destructive beliefs that I developed early as a dismissive is the belief that I have to be ok with whatever comes at me and also that I have to do everything by myself. Including cry, grieve, be happy, be angry, be lonely, be successful, be a failure, whatever I do, I had to do it all by myself with no understanding, no sympathy, no one to ease the weight of it all. That was terribly destructive to me. So, when I eventually got to a place in my life with healthier people around me loving me and meeting me in my own healthier emotional life, they were saying to me "Sherry, don't do this alone, I am here for you. " It was finally something that felt good, safe, and I knew what I was missing, I knew I needed and wanted and deserved that love, just as I love them. You can't find that with an unavailable partner! You just can't. You are so right about bringing choice into the equation, rather than just compulsion. We all have to get to that point. Our compulsions are different, of course, and driven by different triggers but unconscious is unconscious. Compulsions driven by fear are toxic and damaging to us and those around us. We can challenge the thoughts, beliefs, automatic compulsions, and make the changes in our chosen behaviors. For me the biggest change came first in behaviors, letting thoughts and beliefs soften and change over time (which takes a risk and some trust). For example, choosing to reach out to a confidante instead of shoulder it alone. Letting my partner see me cry and voice my sadness and pain. Sharing details of my life that make me happy and proud , with a partner. Those all were huge and difficult, momentous steps for me that involved doing opposite of what my compulsion to avoid prodded me to do. We all avoid and abandon ourselves in this until we stop that with conscious effort. Best to you as you continue your efforts. It's a long process but worth it.
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