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Post by unluckyinlove on Apr 26, 2019 22:08:43 GMT
Unlucky--Glad the conversation went well! You seem to be pretty clear eyed about the dynamic and what you are and are not willing to tolerate, which is great! As perhaps an aside....I'm not sure I agree with the argument building that if a FRIENDSHIP (not partnership) isn't smooth sailing than it should be tossed out in the rubbish if it isn't meeting your needs. That sounds a little self serving and transactional. It is a big old world and there are complicated people out there who make wonderful if not always easy friends and deserve some hanging in there. Sometimes you can grow a lot by putting up with SOME mess in someone else--as they likely do with you. Also, the new terms of engagement that OP proposes change the friend dynamic quite a bit, into one that is not mutual and reciprocal. Perhaps the meaning of the word "friend" is different between individual posters, as well. I consider friends to be inner circle people in my life. These are the people I confide in; we check in on each other to see how the other is doing, support each other through thick and thin. The boundaries of 1) Not reaching out directly 2) Keeping it light if he makes contact 3) Steering away from intimate conversations all preclude the term "friend" as I mean it here. I do not have friends that limit themselves with me the way OP now will with this guy. Is her approach then self serving or transactional? Not necessarily. But it's not what I personally consider maintaining a real friendship, which has an emotional intimacy component as well as practical reciprocity. One could actually argue that it is a bit self serving. I'm AP insecure healing. At some point (and I feel I'm well on my way!) I hope to be secure. Once I get there, I imagine I may be able to have an open friendship without such limitations, however, his confusion is triggering everything I am trying to heal. As AP, I have to consciously make a great effort to detach myself emotionally from him and that requires the list above. In addition, you hear all the time of secures who are triggered back into AP by DA/FA behavior. So we all have to be a bit self serving at times to be sure we are "monitoring" our level of engagement with different individuals. |
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Post by sissyk on Apr 26, 2019 23:37:48 GMT
I personally don’t want avoidant friends that are not aware either. You should not have to work at a friendship like that. Friendships are supposed to be easy not work like an intimate relationship. Those actually take work. Why would I want to be friends with someone that could easily ditch plans with me, etc when they are triggered? You need to have secure or aware people in your life, the rest is just toxic. Life is short don’t waste time with people who can’t meet needs or just be there as a friend. People need to look within on why they would want anyone in their life they can’t count on. My avoidant and I are ‘friends ‘ but it’s friends from afar as in no hard feelings when we run into each other. We can say hello or smile and carry on with our life with no animosity. As we will run into each other this summer. I totally agree- healthy friendships don't involve much drama and intensity. I've found that healthy, secure friendships are a great model for healthier romantic relationships. If the drama and confusion factor is high, it's an indication that old patterns are presenting. That said, we find our own level. So if we are with a difficult partner we need to look within at our difficulty and find the connection to our unresolved past. I was not reacting to the OP. I was reacting to this. Most of us--of all types--are doing the best we can. Feeling connection with another person is rare and precious and messy. We know it when we feel it. I just don't agree if you are not secure AT you don't deserve friendship if it ruffles feathers or doesn't meet a punch list. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 23:57:55 GMT
Also, the new terms of engagement that OP proposes change the friend dynamic quite a bit, into one that is not mutual and reciprocal. Perhaps the meaning of the word "friend" is different between individual posters, as well. I consider friends to be inner circle people in my life. These are the people I confide in; we check in on each other to see how the other is doing, support each other through thick and thin. The boundaries of 1) Not reaching out directly 2) Keeping it light if he makes contact 3) Steering away from intimate conversations all preclude the term "friend" as I mean it here. I do not have friends that limit themselves with me the way OP now will with this guy. Is her approach then self serving or transactional? Not necessarily. But it's not what I personally consider maintaining a real friendship, which has an emotional intimacy component as well as practical reciprocity. One could actually argue that it is a bit self serving. I'm AP insecure healing. At some point (and I feel I'm well on my way!) I hope to be secure. Once I get there, I imagine I may be able to have an open friendship without such limitations, however, his confusion is triggering everything I am trying to heal. As AP, I have to consciously make a great effort to detach myself emotionally from him and that requires the list above. In addition, you hear all the time of secures who are triggered back into AP by DA/FA behavior. So we all have to be a bit self serving at times to be sure we are "monitoring" our level of engagement with different individuals. I totally get this and support it- and come from the same place in deciding what friendships to undertake for the well being of both. This is what sissyk isn't understanding g about my take on this, but I completely understand the dialing down of this for your own health. My choice would be to back away further because of my own need for healthy connections, having been isolated as a dismissive most of my life. The connections I have now are a whole new landscape for me and I have grown a lot. I don't like going backwards. I don't have to. But I think there is an AP bias in some posters against DA leaving for their own healing, or adding their own meaning to what a DA says here. Lots of arguments about something I didn't even express :/ If drama and confusion are high; something is unhealthy, and any person has the right to choose their best connections for HEALING- even a DA lol. It sounds like you resolved this in just the way you need to for your process? good job! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 0:15:49 GMT
I've been in the exact same spot with an avoidant ex before. I discovered over time that his incapacity for consistency was uncomfortable and in fact, rude and left me hanging too often. It was very much on his terms, and I also used it to hide out from being romantically available to someone else. I dropped it, we are friendly acquaintances who don't hang out, so not occupy a companionship role in each other's lives. I feel peaceful and at ease and available for what I want both in platonic and romantic relationships. What I find is that good relationships don't feel bad consistently (actually ever. Challenges don't have to be painful and alienating...they can be met together in a true friendship) and I don't have to think about them and justify my involvement or question if it's good for me and figure out if it's worth the effort. The friendship turned out to be just the death throes of a relationship that sucked. I don't mind letting it go. I'm interested to know @sherry - how did you put the brakes on the friendship? I'm finding it difficult to actually truly detach - almost out of politeness as I said before - and because it's become habitual.
I had an intimate conversation with him i. which I expressed how much I appreciate the growth that he and I ultimately had together and that the relationship was now keeping me from moving forward into finding the relationship that I truly desire. My standards for close friendships are higher than they used to be, that is healthy for me. He understood that his presence in my life as a former flame was inhibiting for me, and that I found myself hiding out in the comfort of the status quo. I also expressed that the inconsistency was uncomfortable and caused me to feel unreciprocated- our levels of availability were just no longer compatible. He took it well but I am sure is saddened by it, but he is mature and caring enough to let me go this way and not harbor coldness. We both realize, people change. Needs change. Life evolves. We both need to keep finding our way  |
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Post by 8675309 on Apr 27, 2019 3:06:46 GMT
Secure connections are not messy, messes can happen but the connection itself is not.
Cutting people out doesn't mean you cant stay friendly, they just cant be a part of your overall life. You say hellos when you run into each other or maybe meet for a drink once in a blue moon.
People come into your life for a reason a season or a lifetime. Very few make it a life time. In general the older you become the few true friends you really have. You can have many friends but its more surface and you have the few true you really turn to and they would turn to you. These people that come for a season or reason are meant to teach us lessons to grow.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 3:35:28 GMT
Secure connections are not messy, messes can happen but the connection itself is not. Cutting people out doesn't mean you cant stay friendly, they just cant be a part of your overall life. You say hellos when you run into each other or maybe meet for a drink once in a blue moon. People come into your life for a reason a season or a lifetime. Very few make it a life time. In general the older you become the few true friends you really have. You can have many friends but its more surface and you have the few true you really turn to and they would turn to you. These people that come for a season or reason are meant to teach us lessons to grow. AMEN to this, all of it. Well said. And ocarina, behaving as you do with your manners and pleasing even though you are being treated rudely and without proper respect and consideration, and also knowing that you are stalling.... it must be a role. Here is an article, just a suggestion- several roles mentioned here played out clearly in my relationships. Once I identified it the light bulb went on and I yanked myself out of the roles to become more authentically me. Huge eye opener. It made letting go of the other players much easier. The other is playing a role also. Freedom awaits, and maybe sooner rather than later. www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/podcast-ep-128-roles-i-want-to-break-free/ |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 14:12:17 GMT
If you date someone who you believe is FA, and encounter both resistance to relationship and resistance to endings, isn't the healthy thing to resist being in the back seat while an insecure and unhealthy partner drives the agenda? I guess a three month waiting period is better than an indefinite stay but it does get tiresome to have to work so hard just to date, or maintain a friendship, doesn't it? It seems like a more natural flow would be more desirable. It would be nice to not have to work so hard for sure! But remember not all "relationships" are romantic and some relationships such as friendship and family aren't the kind that you can easily walk away from indefinitely. I think what Alexandria was saying about making the decision to but a break in place and "check back in" after a certain amount of time is actually a secure move. And I still believe in the power of change when someone realizes what they are losing, becomes aware of their wounds and works on healing. @unluckyinlove, I hope this is helpful, I noticed what seems to be an AP Trap in this comment. "And I still believe in the power of change when someone realizes what they are losing, becomes aware of their wounds and works on healing." This makes the "break" about "believing in" and undeniably "hoping" and "waiting" for CHANGE. The desired unavailable partner could resolve a long standing abandonment issue if they could just realize what they are missing , recognize their wounds, and change. Isn't that trying to heal your own abandonment issue by relying on an unlikely, unavailable source? Isn't that pattern? This makes this break about something other than your own well being- it makes it also about recreating the waiting and hoping game, whistling in the dark and hoping for an outcome that avoids having to face an end, face the fact of unavailability, face your pain about disappointment, face that this is pattern. I know that through this process you've recognized all this, but wanted to just give my input on an early red flag in your own thought process. We can believe in change all we want. DA do it also- in spite of evidence to the contrary in another insecure partner's behavior. None of us are immune to settling, hiding out in less than scenarios, and putting our abandonment in the lap of another person to solve. THIS DOES NOT WORK, it's not the best way to heal and I have not seen any evidence of the viability of this mindset for insecurely attached people. Show me the money. Someone might have an anecdote about the mate who was left and had an epiphany and CHANGED FOR THE HAPPILY EVER AFTER but really- it's a long shot. If it's your pattern that has never paid off, I'd ditch it in favor of going through the real healing awakening in YOURSELF and opening to an available partner. You won't have to suffer abandonment over and over once you stop recreating it with traps and patterns in your own through process. I've learned this from experience and only want to encourage you. I think you're doling really well, though, with the process of this thread. |
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Post by 8675309 on Apr 27, 2019 16:27:59 GMT
Walking away is not easy for Any attachment not even secures. This is a human thing not just attachment.
Secures just know when to even when it’s hard, they don’t keep hanging on trying and to be continually defeated, triggered, etc.
Many of you are stronger than you think, many keep themselves trapped when you don’t have to. You got you, always remember this. 😀
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Post by unluckyinlove on Apr 27, 2019 23:28:30 GMT
It would be nice to not have to work so hard for sure! But remember not all "relationships" are romantic and some relationships such as friendship and family aren't the kind that you can easily walk away from indefinitely. I think what Alexandria was saying about making the decision to but a break in place and "check back in" after a certain amount of time is actually a secure move. And I still believe in the power of change when someone realizes what they are losing, becomes aware of their wounds and works on healing. @unluckyinlove, I hope this is helpful, I noticed what seems to be an AP Trap in this comment. "And I still believe in the power of change when someone realizes what they are losing, becomes aware of their wounds and works on healing." This makes the "break" about "believing in" and undeniably "hoping" and "waiting" for CHANGE. The desired unavailable partner could resolve a long standing abandonment issue if they could just realize what they are missing , recognize their wounds, and change. Isn't that trying to heal your own abandonment issue by relying on an unlikely, unavailable source? Isn't that pattern? This makes this break about something other than your own well being- it makes it also about recreating the waiting and hoping game, whistling in the dark and hoping for an outcome that avoids having to face an end, face the fact of unavailability, face your pain about disappointment, face that this is pattern. I know that through this process you've recognized all this, but wanted to just give my input on an early red flag in your own thought process. We can believe in change all we want. DA do it also- in spite of evidence to the contrary in another insecure partner's behavior. None of us are immune to settling, hiding out in less than scenarios, and putting our abandonment in the lap of another person to solve. THIS DOES NOT WORK, it's not the best way to heal and I have not seen any evidence of the viability of this mindset for insecurely attached people. Show me the money. Someone might have an anecdote about the mate who was left and had an epiphany and CHANGED FOR THE HAPPILY EVER AFTER but really- it's a long shot. If it's your pattern that has never paid off, I'd ditch it in favor of going through the real healing awakening in YOURSELF and opening to an available partner. You won't have to suffer abandonment over and over once you stop recreating it with traps and patterns in your own through process. I've learned this from experience and only want to encourage you. I think you're doling really well, though, with the process of this thread. Agreed. It's a fair call out. I am still healing I thought about that after I posted it too, but I think I was referring to situations that CAN'T be cut off completely....like family and some friendships. And I can believe in the power of change without allowing myself to sit back and wait for it. I think it DID sound AP though with my comment to "check back in". I don't plan to "check back in" with this one. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 23:55:52 GMT
@unluckyinlove, I hope this is helpful, I noticed what seems to be an AP Trap in this comment. "And I still believe in the power of change when someone realizes what they are losing, becomes aware of their wounds and works on healing." This makes the "break" about "believing in" and undeniably "hoping" and "waiting" for CHANGE. The desired unavailable partner could resolve a long standing abandonment issue if they could just realize what they are missing , recognize their wounds, and change. Isn't that trying to heal your own abandonment issue by relying on an unlikely, unavailable source? Isn't that pattern? This makes this break about something other than your own well being- it makes it also about recreating the waiting and hoping game, whistling in the dark and hoping for an outcome that avoids having to face an end, face the fact of unavailability, face your pain about disappointment, face that this is pattern. I know that through this process you've recognized all this, but wanted to just give my input on an early red flag in your own thought process. We can believe in change all we want. DA do it also- in spite of evidence to the contrary in another insecure partner's behavior. None of us are immune to settling, hiding out in less than scenarios, and putting our abandonment in the lap of another person to solve. THIS DOES NOT WORK, it's not the best way to heal and I have not seen any evidence of the viability of this mindset for insecurely attached people. Show me the money. Someone might have an anecdote about the mate who was left and had an epiphany and CHANGED FOR THE HAPPILY EVER AFTER but really- it's a long shot. If it's your pattern that has never paid off, I'd ditch it in favor of going through the real healing awakening in YOURSELF and opening to an available partner. You won't have to suffer abandonment over and over once you stop recreating it with traps and patterns in your own through process. I've learned this from experience and only want to encourage you. I think you're doling really well, though, with the process of this thread. Agreed. It's a fair call out. I am still healing I thought about that after I posted it too, but I think I was referring to situations that CAN'T be cut off completely....like family and some friendships. And I can believe in the power of change without allowing myself to sit back and wait for it. I think it DID sound AP though with my comment to "check back in". I don't plan to "check back in" with this one. And please know, I'm just trying to give helpful feedback. I do and think DA style sometimes without even realizing. I have grown a ton but still have difficulty changing some stripes. Particularly with the dating process. I think I'm a difficult communicator because I am super heavy on boundaries with new men and am not sure what's polite while I'm guarded and feeling things out. I have noticed some real confusion there for me. So anyway, it's a long slog at some points lol. I relate to the challenge of trying new ways of approach sometimes. |
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Post by unluckyinlove on Apr 28, 2019 0:21:28 GMT
Agreed. It's a fair call out. I am still healing I thought about that after I posted it too, but I think I was referring to situations that CAN'T be cut off completely....like family and some friendships. And I can believe in the power of change without allowing myself to sit back and wait for it. I think it DID sound AP though with my comment to "check back in". I don't plan to "check back in" with this one. And please know, I'm just trying to give helpful feedback. I do and think DA style sometimes without even realizing. I have grown a ton but still have difficulty changing some stripes. Particularly with the dating process. I think I'm a difficult communicator because I am super heavy on boundaries with new men and am not sure what's polite while I'm guarded and feeling things out. I have noticed some real confusion there for me. So anyway, it's a long slog at some points lol. I relate to the challenge of trying new ways of approach sometimes. I'm absolutely ok and grateful for your feedback. I too recognize the DA in some of your responses just as much as I recognize the AP in my own and others responses. And as AP, I'm learning not to take DA responses personally as you guys tend to be more blunt. We APs are more sensitive and tend to dance around a subject. There's positives and negatives in both. But that's the beauty of these discussion boards is that I feel we can gain so much understanding of each other.... even if we are still completely confused by each other! But understanding leads to better interactions within our own personal relationships. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 0:30:10 GMT
And please know, I'm just trying to give helpful feedback. I do and think DA style sometimes without even realizing. I have grown a ton but still have difficulty changing some stripes. Particularly with the dating process. I think I'm a difficult communicator because I am super heavy on boundaries with new men and am not sure what's polite while I'm guarded and feeling things out. I have noticed some real confusion there for me. So anyway, it's a long slog at some points lol. I relate to the challenge of trying new ways of approach sometimes. I'm absolutely ok and grateful for your feedback. I too recognize the DA in some of your responses just as much as I recognize the AP in my own and others responses. And as AP, I'm learning not to take DA responses personally as you guys tend to be more blunt. We APs are more sensitive and tend to dance around a subject. There's positives and negatives in both. But that's the beauty of these discussion boards is that I feel we can gain so much understanding of each other.... even if we are still completely confused by each other! But understanding leads to better interactions within our own personal relationships. I agree, it's like two very different cultures colliding here sometimes from what I have seen. I do believe the interactions are all well intentioned though, I know mine are. I don't run into difficulty with my variety of secure to DA friends, but that is in real life as well with the benefit of personal warmth and facial expressions to share with each other. It's never personal, there is no vendetta, only a different perspective that is also aimed and encouraging happiness through self- actualization. We are all just very different animals haha. So thank you for the dialog! |
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Post by 8675309 on Apr 28, 2019 1:38:34 GMT
Sherry I dont see much DA in your feedback, I see more secureness and knowing what is healthy.
Either way, most of us here post with love even if it sounds harsh. I always post with love even if Im harsh. I want all of you to be able to experience what I can with being secure in oneself and secure connections.
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Post by happyidiot on May 1, 2019 6:59:27 GMT
I love this. You have perfectly articulated something that I have been practicing in my own life with great success. And add to that, learning how to not be destroyed if someone drops me and walks away or to worry about that possibility. I think one of the reasons that people waste time on unavailable partners is that deep down we feel we don't deserve someone awesome who is fully available and commits to us and so don't even realize that is a possibility and may even tell ourselves we aren't looking for a serious relationship. But if we can get clear on what we truly want (or at least what we don't want!) we might start seeing entanglements with unavailable people as waste of time, stopping us from meeting someone available and great. We might even be relieved when someone reveals themselves as unavailable early on, because at least they saved us some time and we can quickly move on. And the more times you let someone go because you realize there is a major barrier (like they have another partner, they live far away, they said they weren't looking for anything serious, there is some deal-breaker, etc) the easier it gets and the easier it gets to notice quickly when a barrier is there and stop choosing people with barriers. I know this was not addressed to me and I hope it is ok to speak to this...the above, although extremely sound and logical, goes against my AP mantra in my head to “never give up on someone I care about”. I am working on changing that tape or at least being aware of it playing in the background...but cutting ties is a real challenge for me, and I think that may be why some people hang on to unavailable partners. Embracing an attitude of “this is a waste of my time” does not compute because I oftentimes find myself looking at potential and possibility versus what is really there...so I conveniently gloss over the “unavailable” part and cling to what is “potential”, which I think happens a lot in insecure pairings. Thank you for letting me explore this a bit a speak to a deep seated issue that I am working on. Yes, it's definitely not easy! But change is possible. Getting stuck on potential and having trouble letting go is a huge problem for APs and AP-leaning FAs. I used to totally have the same problem. What do you think serves you about telling yourself to never give up on someone you care about? And what do those words mean to you? happyidiot , isn't it incredible when you realize that feeling horrible is a choice? When the role is anchoice? Of course you're going to feel sad and angry and stressed and confused with a partner who is inconsistent and emotionally unhealthy. There's only so much you can do to grow in such a situation before you realize, uh, the situation doesn't fit me anymore. It's just so empowering to realize that everything involves a choice. It doesn't make it easy- but it simplifies things. I've learned to be a lot more conscious in my choices. Make the tough ones. Deal with the risks. Be myself, full on. Say what I'm thinking and feeling. Know and say what I need and want. It gets easier and easier and I don't feel alone because I haven't abandoned myself for some other lost soul. I know exactly where I am at with me and really, that's the best feeling. Absolutely. We of course need to have compassion for ourselves and understand our choices are shaped by everything that has happened in our lives up to that moment, but it's so refreshing to start realizing that we actually have a lot of choice and we CAN make better choices even if they are scary. I used to feel like it was impossible for me to be without someone I loved or that feeling drawn to someone meant I had to be with them, for example. It really does get easier and easier each time. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 12:08:20 GMT
My belief is that self compassion (and compassion for others actually) is at the core of transformation and change, it's very empowering.
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