Can two Fearfuls ever get together?

To answer your question- yes, I think two fearful avoidants can get together if self-aware and willing to be together. That’s the key.

When reading the end of your post I was struck by the thought that no matter what the advice is for FA- whether it’s normally for anxious, as you said, FA or another secure for that matter- the FA will still end up alone if he’s not willing to work on his issues. His internal struggle and demons are his own. You can’t be patient enough or understanding enough to bring him to a feeling of safety without his willingness to do so.

I feel for you - I have a dismissive avoidant with his demons that keep him from intimacy. After several months I’m invested much less and affected less by him- and that’s a good thing. I’m growing in my security regardless of his actions or lack thereof.

No matter what your guy chooses to do, I hope you can still manage to focus on you and be happy. I wish it was easier to make everything better, but it really is up to each person to be honest with themselves and choose to allow someone in to their innermost being 💙

epicgum - Yeah, I imagine the pairing could be very unstable like two AP together. With all that anxiety there is likely to be a lot of conflict, drama and ups and downs.

The DA removes all the drama- they refuse to participate in it. I was with another AP once for two years and eventually left. He was more AP than me and I became avoidant, but before that the relationship was very volatile and consumed with drama. I couldn’t take it anymore.

All that anxiety is there, but it's mostly just kept inside. I am always nice to my FA and every time I only slightly disapprove of something, he apologized profoundly to me and asks me to forgive him. He is always nice to me too. We had maybe like two bad conversations, other than that, there is never conflict and never any fights. We both avoid conflict and confrontation, so we hardly ever talk about things. All my drama is kept inside. 

Building on that, I think the shakey part of the conflict foundation also comes from the fear / anticipation that any conflict at all means the end of the relationship. Whereas, you actually need to face conflict head on with a partner, preferably repeatedly over time, to both test compatibility and to see that it's safe to communicate through issues and that it doesn't mean a breakup needs to follow. Here, the benefit of a secure partner is they aren't just going to leave at the first sign of conflict or let it fester until it boils over, or even be uncomfortable discussing conflict in the first place. But with insecure styles, it actually can mean the end of the relationship, either because the fantasy bond can't survive conflict or because one or both partners thinks any conflict means it's not the one. So while I agree, conflict (and authenticity/vulnerability) can seem scary, reframing it to have value and to be a source of connection (pride and comfort because you CAN successfully be teammates with your partner) can help. But I also realize, easier said than done to practice and recondition in order to start feeling more comfort with it.

That is so interesting and enlightening. You are right, thinking about it, I fear that any conflict might end the relationship. My family used to have these severe violent conflicts and they always left me terrified that someone might not speak to me again, leave or go mad. Of course it never happened.

This is also something I never understood about the AP's behavior, I always thought if they care so much, aren't they worried about pushing away the other person forever with their outbursts? In my life, asking for something and getting upset about something has never worked, the only strategy for me was to be quiet and to pretend I didn't care (or maybe to be very nice) and then sometimes I got what I wanted. 

Getting upset most likely either sometimes worked for them in their family dynamic, or was something that they observed worked when someone else did it. Obviously not all childhood dynamics are the same or there wouldn't be different styles.

Also, when someone is triggered and has never worked through their issues, no matter which insecure style, they can't control it. When triggered, AP nervous systems get overwhelmed (needing external regulation to quell the fear of abandonment and regain connection, which can manifest as an outburst because of the crippling anxiety) whereas DA or the deactivated FA nervous systems shut down (wanting to retreat away because the fear is of engulfment, and the nervous system subconscious response isn't looking for external regulation, it's looking to push down the issue).

AP cares, but the unaware often can't communicate their needs because they were conditioned that having needs may push others away. Since their caregivers responded inconsistently, they're afraid that saying the wrong thing will make the other person leave forever and believe they can control other people's emotions and decisions (and vice-versa, since they have a much more positive view of others than self and didn't learn that emotional self-regulation is healthy and normal -- and likely believe everyone is wired that same way... this is why it's a foundation for codependency). When the threat of the other person leaving is strong, it threatens their entire sense of identity because the AP identity is wrapped up in others regulating them. Again, if the AP is a nice person, it's generally not malicious. They probably had to be responsible for managing their caretaker's emotions as a child, instead of the other way around.

Does that mean you should tolerate someone hurling anger and insults your way as they revert to a scared, injured childlike state? No. They need to figure out how to self-sooth and deal with it when their triggered response is disproportionate to the situation and full of projections. However, understanding where it's coming from and that they desire connection and repair that they have zero idea how to ask for to the extent it's bubbled over may help you not take it personally and shut it down quickly. The thing is, trying to talk sense while they're triggered will have no impact because they can't control where their nervous system is at in the moment. Discussing it with them after, stating that their behavior was inappropriate and also stating and keeping your boundaries, may help.

APs panicking at an avoidant who shuts down and can't respond just ends up in a mutually triggered situation which makes everything worse. The AP will feel abandoned by the perceived dismissal, and the unaware AP may just keep escalating the conflict as they try to search for the "magic words" and formula that will make it okay and open the other person up. Because it's almost definitely repeating some kind of old dynamic that they haven't worked through or healed.

Once I figured out my triggers, and it was totally unnecessary to share because I stopped getting all out triggered by then and because the relationship was over, I told my FA ex that when I got like that I basically just needed a hug and genuine assurance he wasn't trying to get rid of me, but we could talk about whatever the issue was when I calmed down (he never did that, as he'd be triggered too, which triggered me). However, I never was angry or abusive when I used to get triggered, I just was unrelenting in dropping whatever issue because it never felt resolved (in this case, it was because neither of us could properly communicate) and I hated "going to bed angry" ie with a potential wedge still between us and sought repair to an exhausting extent. Plus, at least with him, I didn't get triggered often and it was never without a good reason, so it meant something pretty major was wrong. When I was much younger, there was far more projection involved and likely seemed far more nonsensical to the person on the receiving end. But every single time I've ever been triggered, it was always always by a perception of fear of abandonment, because I never felt I was enough to be okay and regulated on my own. Which I didn't know and couldn't communicate until a year ago -- when I had done enough work and healing for that to no longer be such a huge fear or true anymore.

Everybody exists on a spectrum, but APs like me can have ‘outbursts’, the textbooks like Levine’s ‘Attached’ call it “protesting behaviour”. I was very very aware that bad behaviour can push people away so I almost always tried to suppress my feelings after my FA ex did something hurtful. After a few hours, however, I would start crying. It was uncontrollable.

That happened twice in our two year relationship. Later I learned to suppress my feelings longer by being quiet, give myself two weeks for me to cool down, then explain my feelings rationally. I thought I had matured and was communicating better.

(Funnily enough, my FA ex dumped me because he thought me being quiet was me trying to control him. Go figure.)



Not sure about other APs, but when my FA ex would rather stare into space while on dates with me, would only have sex only occasionally, would never hug me back when I hugged him, all after only six months of dating, my brain is going into a panic, telling me “this guy has no interest in you.” That’s when APs have have protesting behaviour — like confronting the FA/ DA, threatening to leave, manipulations, etc. APs aren’t trying to hurt their FA/ DAs, they just want reassurance that the FA/ DAs love them. It seems FAs and even secures might show this behaviour if too their partners are DA enough.

APs don’t jump from one person to the next because they never loved their exes, it is mainly because out of all the attachment types, they struggle the most without love. APs hurt the most and the longest when love is taken away. APs and Avoidants are both likely to cheat more than Secures, but APs are also likely to carry a torch for someone forever.