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Post by toorational on Mar 20, 2020 20:57:44 GMT
Yes, ok, I might have overstated the body aspect. It is of course by no means sufficient by itself and there are lots of other things I love about her. Although I agree that chemistry will not factor in how we handle hardships, I have found out throughout my relationships that it IS essential for a fulfilling relationship. I didn't have sexual chemistry with my first long-time partner and I didn't know what I was missing. I never want such a sexless relationship again. It's all about compatibility and I believe that it's important to find your partner attractive and have great sexual chemistry, even if I get flak for being honest.
Yes, emotional intelligence and ability to handle conflicts are also important. I'm probably not particularly good at it and neither is my partner. I'm hoping that we can improve and grow together. For what it's worth, she hasn't gone out the door at the first sign of hardship. We've been together 3 years now and had our share of hardships. I just don't know if we'll be able to make it through this most recent episode where I was more open than ever about my expectations and dissatisfactions (I also included what I love about her btw). If history repeats itself, she'll be especially loving for a few months to try to make it work, but will slowly fade away. I'm hoping that I'm wrong about the 2nd part.
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Post by amber on Mar 21, 2020 3:38:35 GMT
Yes, ok, I might have overstated the body aspect. It is of course by no means sufficient by itself and there are lots of other things I love about her. Although I agree that chemistry will not factor in how we handle hardships, I have found out throughout my relationships that it IS essential for a fulfilling relationship. I didn't have sexual chemistry with my first long-time partner and I didn't know what I was missing. I never want such a sexless relationship again. It's all about compatibility and I believe that it's important to find your partner attractive and have great sexual chemistry, even if I get flak for being honest. Yes, emotional intelligence and ability to handle conflicts are also important. I'm probably not particularly good at it and neither is my partner. I'm hoping that we can improve and grow together. For what it's worth, she hasn't gone out the door at the first sign of hardship. We've been together 3 years now and had our share of hardships. I just don't know if we'll be able to make it through this most recent episode where I was more open than ever about my expectations and dissatisfactions (I also included what I love about her btw). If history repeats itself, she'll be especially loving for a few months to try to make it work, but will slowly fade away. I'm hoping that I'm wrong about the 2nd part. Unless she does work in therapy she likely won’t change. It takes a lot hard work to change and usually you need professional support. If she isn’t willing to get help or address her issues some other way, it’s unlikely change will Be sustained.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 21, 2020 4:07:03 GMT
toorational, sexual fulfillment in a relationship is important, but the underlying issue is actually within yourself as far as that's concerned. AP usually process longing and anxiety as emotional overwhelm --> passion. Pairing with an avoidant, even one you call "slight" sparks and activates your insecure anxious attachment (the little kid inside you that isn't healed) because it feels familiar to chase love... maybe this time will be different and you'll win the person over forever and heal the child. Often, when love is truly available, it feels different, unfamiliar, weird, boring, not sexy. Ironically, the sexual attraction would fade if the avoidant became truly available for a stable forever relationship, as this longing and emotional overwhelm would no longer be triggered. This is why toxic pairings produce much more sexual attraction yet also pain and incompatibility. Trying to get her to change won't address this issue for you. Yes, you'll feel passion, but you won't ever have a stable relationship because you don't interpret comfort, reliability, familiarity, and true availability as sexy and passionate. If things don't work out with her, this will repeat with the next avoidant you spark with. It's a big factor in the anxious/avoidant trap. What changes this is focusing more on healing your AP and building up your sense of self, self acceptance, and trust in yourself. It attracts you passionately to more stable partners, who can then offer you what you're looking for in regards to fulfillment, but in a healthy way. This is complicated stuff, not intuitive, and hard to believe until you've started the process of change within yourself. I was AP and earned secure, and this is all stuff I experienced (banging my head against the wall for 20 years chasing passionate relationships with avoidants that always had good sex but left me confused and heart broken until I focused on doing all the work for myself, not looking to others to change). If you already know the pattern with her, then the only way to break it is change your piece. Easier said than done, but turning your attention more towards that than expecting anything of her is the only thing that will get you a different result.
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Post by toorational on Mar 21, 2020 19:20:00 GMT
alexandra, I can see how it could be the case for several people but I'm positive that I wasn't attracted to her because of the AP-DA dynamic. In fact, during the first year I could not have guessed that she was DA. Everything was perfect and she was very affectionate all the time. It was truly blissful.
Sure, I can work on myself and I did see a therapist for 3 months. I'd say that I improved in the past few years. Yes, as an AP, I probably get triggered for things I shouldn't. But I've come to a point where I don't want to take all the blame anymore. Sometime I'n fully justified in feeling hurt. There are instance that I'm just unwilling to accept. Like when I try to give affection and I get the cold shoulder. Not necessarily taken in isolation but where it's a pattern that repeats itself over and over over the course of several weeks. I need to feel loved and it's a basic need in a relationship. I don't see how any therapy or work on myself is gonna change that. Perhaps it's all very very simple. She doesn't love me anymore or doesn't love me enough to sustain a deep and healthy relationship, only a casual one. If that's the case, fine, I just wanna know about it. Is her lack of love because of my AP tendencies? Perhaps. Almost positively for sure. But that still doesn't mean that I should try to deny my hurt feelings when she does something hurtful.
Actually, establishing clear boundaries of what my needs are in this relationship and what behavior I find unacceptable was the right thing to do I think. It will either make this relationship end faster or it will get her to respect me more and see me less as an AP (and improve the R/S). It's probably true that she won't be able to meet me where I want in this relationship unless she seeks therapy for herself and her child wounds (as amber said). It's up to her at this point. I wish with all my heart that she will realize that what I'm asking for is not unreasonable and actually pretty normal for a healthy couple, and that she will be willing to change a bit. Otherwise I'm afraid that she'll end up again with a DA partner like her ex who liked to spend time alone in his garage and never do any activities with her. Sure, it's non-threatening for a DA but at the same time it does not create very deep or healthy relationships.
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Post by amber on Mar 21, 2020 22:07:08 GMT
You can’t always tell someones attachment style in the first year (honeymoon period time). I agree that being with someone who won’t comitt or is hesitant is a deal breaker. I would say ability to commit would be right up there with non negotiable criteria I would need a person to meet in a r/ship. You may however find some healing needs to be done in why you are attracting women who can’t commit to you. Do you have a pattern of this? Do you attract emotionally unavailable people? These are hard confronting wuesutons to ask ourselves. I always considered myself emotionally available until my recent breakup with my non comittal ex, and after doing a lot of reading in r/ships and attachment cams to the conclusion that usually if you’re attracting unavailable partners it’s because you or some parts of you are not available as well. Or perhaps you don’t feel worthy or deserving of an available partner etc
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Post by alexandra on Mar 21, 2020 22:19:12 GMT
toorational, I'm in no way suggesting what you want is unreasonable from a romantic relationship or that you take on all the "blame." In fact, I'm not saying that there's any blame for anyone to take on at all. It's great you're communicating your needs, and that is a big step in earning secure. I am saying that it's extremely important to recognize what is your responsibility to take on, however. You can think of relationships like this in thirds: 1/3 is your independent responsibility (your AP, what you project onto all of your partners that isn't actually related to them or their behavior and is about your relationship with yourself and healing your past trauma), 1/3 is the partner's independent responsibility (in this case, addressing her own DA tendencies that have nothing to do with you), and 1/3 is the part that's actually the interdependent dynamics between the two of you and whether or not there's real problems/incompatibilities. As an insecurely attached person, it can be very difficult to assign the responsibility of those thirds properly. AP often over-assign it to themselves. It was a huge step for me personally to really sit back and think about how to properly connect with myself and take on proper responsibility a few years ago when I was in a serious relationship with an FA. My truly attempting to do so improved my communication tremendously as well as improved me having healthy boundaries. When I felt triggered, but it's because I was filling in information gaps about his behavior with self-blame and negative narratives that I wanted to endlessly talk out with him in circles (AP way of trying to "reconnect" except the disconnection was really with myself and my own needs), I started stopping this and really thinking through what was a me problem versus what was a him problem versus what was an us problem. And if it was a me problem, I'd practice trying to self-soothe and self-regulate. If it was a him problem, I might tell him how whatever FA thing he was doing would make me feel, and if it was an us problem, we'd discuss if we could solve it or if it was an incompatibility. Eventually, as I became more secure (and this took 2 years of really wanting to heal and doing the work, not 3 months), and he stayed equally FA, I was able to see that while we were 90-95% compatible, the magnitude of the last 5-10% was all attachment-related. While that percentage was tiny, the magnitude and depth of the issue is so personal and informs the rest of the relationship, that if both partners aren't on the same page with getting more secure independently, then the small percentage being small simply doesn't matter. What matters is the insecure attachment creating needs and patterns and capacity that are the opposite of the partner's. The way through this is to keep communicating with her but not expect anything unless she's committed to her own work. This has NOTHING to do with how much she may love you. This has to do with her own journey, and that her nervous system shuts down in times of stress and disconnects her from her feelings towards others. Just as your nervous system goes into overdrive in times of stress seeking reconnection. This is the programming an insecurely attached person needs to do the hard work to overcome for themselves.
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Post by toorational on Mar 22, 2020 0:42:02 GMT
amber: Yes, agreed, I didn't discover her attachment style during the honeymoon phase, she hid it well. I mentioned it simply to point out the fact that I don't think I was attracted to her because of the AP/DA dynamic. I don't know if I have a tendency to attract DA partners because I didn't have enough to find a trend. My first 18 years partner was not DA (in fact I was the one displaying DA behavior towards the end). My 2nd serious partner of only 6 months was extreme DA, so that obviously didn't last but made me aware of attachment theory when I tried to understand what went wrong. So my current gf is only my 3rd serious relationship. I think that, at least in part, she was attracted to my perhaps excessively pleasing attitude, which is probably related to being an AP. She mentioned often at the beginning of her relationship how nice it was to have a boyfriend that finally cares about her and her needs, as opposed to her previous two boyfriends. alexandra: Very very interesting points. I like your 3 thirds model of a relationship. I'm being more assertive of my own needs and hopefully it's a sign that I'm on the right path towards secure. I'm fully aware that being more assertive might push her away and that scares me to death, but at this point I prefer that to an unfulfilling relationship. For the record, I haven't been working on myself for only 3 months, but ever since my failed 6 months relationship with a DA ended, about 4 years ago. I've been active on forums, reading books and only recently had therapy. I take this seriously and I know that I need to address my AP tendencies if I want to have fulfilling relationships and I can honestly say that I improved on that front. Perhaps/probably not enough to be secure but I'm getting there slowly. I have quite the same analysis as you regarding percentages. So much of my relationship is great but you're right, that tiny percentage that doesn't work is really taking a heavy toll on the relationship. I understand that her pulling away is just her nervous system shutting down, or at least I think I understand. I could possibly even tolerate it, if only she could voice what she's feeling instead of giving me the cold shoulder. Saying something like "I don't understand why, but I feel like being a bit more distant right now, but I still love you". Maybe I'm daydreaming but that would make a significant difference. Instead she shuts down, gets distant, and then later when we talk about it she says that she's having doubts about the relationship. So in the end, as I said, perhaps the whole AP-DA dynamic is not the right model to explain what we're going through. Perhaps she's just falling out of love. People do for a million different reasons and they probably mostly don't know (or care) why. I'm more analytical than average (like most people on this forum probably), and so I seek a rational explanation to what I'm going through. But perhaps it's pointless. As my ex once told me : You can't "fix" love. At least it makes for interesting discussions!
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Post by amber on Mar 22, 2020 1:30:21 GMT
amber: Yes, agreed, I didn't discover her attachment style during the honeymoon phase, she hid it well. I mentioned it simply to point out the fact that I don't think I was attracted to her because of the AP/DA dynamic. I don't know if I have a tendency to attract DA partners because I didn't have enough to find a trend. My first 18 years partner was not DA (in fact I was the one displaying DA behavior towards the end). My 2nd serious partner of only 6 months was extreme DA, so that obviously didn't last but made me aware of attachment theory when I tried to understand what went wrong. So my current gf is only my 3rd serious relationship. I think that, at least in part, she was attracted to my perhaps excessively pleasing attitude, which is probably related to being an AP. She mentioned often at the beginning of her relationship how nice it was to have a boyfriend that finally cares about her and her needs, as opposed to her previous two boyfriends. alexandra: Very very interesting points. I like your 3 thirds model of a relationship. I'm being more assertive of my own needs and hopefully it's a sign that I'm on the right path towards secure. I'm fully aware that being more assertive might push her away and that scares me to death, but at this point I prefer that to an unfulfilling relationship. For the record, I haven't been working on myself for only 3 months, but ever since my failed 6 months relationship with a DA ended, about 4 years ago. I've been active on forums, reading books and only recently had therapy. I take this seriously and I know that I need to address my AP tendencies if I want to have fulfilling relationships and I can honestly say that I improved on that front. Perhaps/probably not enough to be secure but I'm getting there slowly. I have quite the same analysis as you regarding percentages. So much of my relationship is great but you're right, that tiny percentage that doesn't work is really taking a heavy toll on the relationship. I understand that her pulling away is just her nervous system shutting down, or at least I think I understand. I could possibly even tolerate it, if only she could voice what she's feeling instead of giving me the cold shoulder. Saying something like "I don't understand why, but I feel like being a bit more distant right now, but I still love you". Maybe I'm daydreaming but that would make a significant difference. Instead she shuts down, gets distant, and then later when we talk about it she says that she's having doubts about the relationship. So in the end, as I said, perhaps the whole AP-DA dynamic is not the right model to explain what we're going through. Perhaps she's just falling out of love. People do for a million different reasons and they probably mostly don't know (or care) why. I'm more analytical than average (like most people on this forum probably), and so I seek a rational explanation to what I'm going through. But perhaps it's pointless. As my ex once told me : You can't "fix" love. At least it makes for interesting discussions! Aa usual Alexandra gives great advice. Something else to consider in my experience is that communicating doesn’t always lead to solutions or improvements.me and my ex seemingly at the time had great open chads about our needs, feelings etc, which left both of us feeling understood and expanded. Later on, I realised talking doesn’t always change things, because change only really happens at the level of the nervous system. Cognitively understanding things doesn’t make a better r/ship necessarily unless both people are working on themselves actively. I discovered later that my ex FA was also not being truthful in our deep and meaningful discussions, and was instead withholding the truth about some his feelings. I think it’s worth noting that all insecure types may be susceptible to this kind of behaviour, so “talking thigs out” doesn’t always lead to greater outcomes, if both people arnt aware and brutally honest with themselves and each other.i found this with my ex DA too; he wasn’t in touch with his needs and feelings, so how could he possible identify them and then express them clearly to me?
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Post by mrob on Mar 22, 2020 7:11:47 GMT
It’s unbelievable how people choose to persist in thinking their situation is unique, when it is the same old pattern as others have exoerienced and seen here for years, just with a few different frills. OP, you’re being offered a lifeline here. Surrender is your get out of jail free card.
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Post by anne12 on Mar 22, 2020 8:46:02 GMT
toorational It takes a split second for the old part of your brain to detect and make you feel attracted to another person, who somehow seems familiar to you in one way or the other on the subconscious level. You do not need to have a Borring sexlife in your next relationship, if your current relationship does not work out for you.
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Post by amber on Mar 22, 2020 20:32:30 GMT
toorational It takes a split second for the old part of your brain to detect and make you feel attracted to another person, who somehow seems familiar to you in one way or the other on the subconscious level. You do not need to have a Borring sexlife in your next relationship, if your current relationship does not work out for you. I agree. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Be careful not go into black and white thinking, which is easy for any insecure type to fall into. Sex downs rushed to be all in passionate and amazing or boring/sexless. There’s an in between somewhere there
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Post by toorational on Mar 22, 2020 20:47:51 GMT
Thanks everyone, I don't have much else to add. We'll see how it goes. mrob, I never claimed that my situation is different. I recognize that it's quite similar to lots of other stories out there. That doesn't make it any less easy to let go of the 90% of the relationship that is great. I'm willing to give it another shot now that I made my expectations and boundaries clear, even if it might cause me more pain. And only I get to make that decision. Thanks for respecting that.
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Post by toorational on Mar 23, 2020 22:01:12 GMT
I had a brief discussion with my GF just now. She hasn't slept well the past two days and says her head is all confused. Strangely, this is the first time that I sleep better than her. I often need sleeping pills to stop my head spinning to sleep but I slept relatively well without pills the last two nights.
I think it's because we're at different stages. I've been thinking about this relationship and our problems ever since the first sign of trouble started, about 1½ years ago. I've been working on myself for 4 years now. So I've done lots of thinking. Now for her, she's way more easygoing and doesn't tend to think much about our relationship. She lives in the present. Now she's being forced to think about it though because of my letter.
My understanding is that she doesn't love me in the same way I love her (not as deeply perhaps) and perhaps she doesn't know how to. Her confusion is basically this: are her doubts about her love for me due to the shell she built around herself due to her childhood hardships, or am I simply the wrong guy? That's what she's trying to figure out at the moment. She's only had 3 relationships so its hard for her to find her answer.
Regardless of the outcome, I'm hoping for her that she'll take this opportunity to do some introspection and learn about herself. Ideally with a book or therapist but I don't know if her commitment to learn about herself or improve will be that strong. In any case, I love her so I'm hoping for the best for her, with or without me. It's very hard for me to write that, especially with all the great moments we shared but it's the truth.
In case she does decide to read a book, do you guys have any to recommend? Lots of books are especially harsh on DAs.
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Post by toorational on Mar 24, 2020 0:39:17 GMT
Thanks for the warning, it's so true! At first I actually wrote "She said that she doesn't love me as much as I do", but when I reread myself, I realized that she never actually said that. So I changed it to "My understanding is...". Yes, I have done what I could do on my end and that's probably why I feel at peace. I will still clarify something next time we talk though. Even though I didn't write it word per word, from my letter it's quite clear that I'm unable to continue this relationship in status quo. But that doesn't mean that I need a commitment from her right away (which could have been misinterpreted in my letter). It means that something has to change, and the main thing is that I want her to do her part in keeping this relationship together and improving her 1/3 or the relationship. Of course I'm more than happy to work on my own 1/3 and work together on the last 1/3 but we need to invest some work into this relationship and I don't want to feel alone. See, I'm already adopting Alexandra's model The other main thing is that I don't want to pretend that some of her behaviors don't hurt me anymore, afraid that I'll trigger her more. I want to be able to speak out freely when something is rightfully hurtful. Hopefully I'll have the courage to do so going forward, if there is such a thing (meaning a future in this relationship). Since we're living apart, we agreed not to see each other for a week. In part to give each other some time but also in part because of the coronavirus. She's afraid my ex is perhaps not taking enough precautions about the virus and exposing the kids, and in turn exposing my girlfriend if we get together. Again my ex screwing with my life but whatever, this break is probably for the better. But this coronavirus is gonna take way longer than a week to die down. Sorry to bring the virus into this conversation, I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing about it but it's part of our lives now.
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Post by toorational on Mar 24, 2020 12:46:20 GMT
Small update. We're not really talking much lately so I sent another e-mail last night, clarifying that I'm not asking for a commitment right away, but rather, at least some change from the status quo (i.e. we need to do some work). I also mentioned the 3 thirds relationship model. She replied something interesting and it's that this 3 thirds model lacks something important : external factors that we can't control. It's actually external factors this time (not my AP behavior, which is largely in check) that made her distance herself. I mentioned it here before but these external factors are mainly the behavioral issues of my son and the recurring problems with my ex. She wants to go completely no contact for a few days to give her time to pounder all of this and figure out if she can live with these external factors long time. She's had bad insomnia the past few days and can't think straight when she's tired. Strangely enough, I'm sleeping relatively well all things considered. The first letter I sent was a huge relief. Things I needed to say for a long time. It's like if the relationship dynamics have turned. For the first time ever in this relationship, I gained some control. I reread an article about childhood trauma leading to DA and a few sentences ring so true: "You may hide your feelings, push people away, keep secrets, and shut down when others show emotion." "You may feel uncomfortable when your partner shows anger or sadness and not know how to react. And you may pull away, or grab on too tightly, thus harming both your relationship and the person you love." www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/mindful-anger/201708/4-ways-traumatic-childhood-affects-adult-relationshipsThis is so her. I wish she would read up a bit on attachment theory. I talked about it a few times and we even listened to a podcast about it together. But she never showed interest in digging deeper by herself.
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