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Post by dhali on Mar 10, 2020 17:20:25 GMT
But the it would be different. Not completely following you on this...can you expand please. Well, if it were different, you’d feel differently. That’s a fact. Because it’s different. Who knows, maybe you couldn’t stand him if it were different. You could never know. Basically, because it’s not different, the most sensible conclusion, imo, is that you’re addicted to the dance. The intermittent reenforcement. And if it were different, you wouldn’t have that addiction with him. It’s a trauma bond. It’s like asking for the trauma bond to be there without the trauma. That’s also a very victimesque position to take, imo (no judgement there, as I get it. Just shining a light on it).
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Post by Helsbells on Mar 10, 2020 17:30:05 GMT
Not completely following you on this...can you expand please. Well, if it were different, you’d feel differently. That’s a fact. Because it’s different. Who knows, maybe you couldn’t stand him if it were different. You could never know. Basically, because it’s not different, the most sensible conclusion, imo, is that you’re addicted to the dance. The intermittent reenforcement. And if it were different, you wouldn’t have that addiction with him. It’s a trauma bond. It’s like asking for the trauma bond to be there without the trauma. That’s also a very victimesque position to take, imo (no judgement there, as I get it. Just shining a light on it). dhali, this spoke to me too. Thank you for saying it. Wow this forum is priceless. I honestly get more from you guys than any expensive therapy I have had. You guys really are the 💣 thank you all.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 10, 2020 18:17:38 GMT
Not completely following you on this...can you expand please. Well, if it were different, you’d feel differently. That’s a fact. Because it’s different. Who knows, maybe you couldn’t stand him if it were different. You could never know. Basically, because it’s not different, the most sensible conclusion, imo, is that you’re addicted to the dance. The intermittent reenforcement. And if it were different, you wouldn’t have that addiction with him. It’s a trauma bond. It’s like asking for the trauma bond to be there without the trauma. That’s also a very victimesque position to take, imo (no judgement there, as I get it. Just shining a light on it). Oh...I never saw myself as a victim....because I freely chose to handle it the way I did. There is some deep seated need in me to rescue...right,wrong, good, bad....I can fall madly for someone in a minute...and that is what happened with B. I can’t explain it....it baffles even me....but he was acting flirtatious and I was enjoying it....but then, I left bible study early one night and there was this look....and I was done. My therapist says I got a glimpse of his little boy and my little girl was smitten. But it was more then smitten...it was full blown focus, obsession, addiction. The thing is....I do, under all of that, really do love him....he is a really good man and will truly be a great husband because he has a great sense of duty, care, protection. Do I blame myself for not being able to be the woman he wanted? Yep..working on that...trying to find a more centered an accurate perspective of him, but having just a hard time at that....the little girl does not want to let go of her hero, her prince (and yep...I know he is not mine...but you can see where this framework comes from)....regardless of how wounded his is. So even within me there is push and pull....and internal battle between accepting reality and clinging to fantasy...and some days one wins out over the other. Just trying to be as honest as possible.
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Post by dhali on Mar 10, 2020 19:31:41 GMT
Trn- are you suggesting you don’t have a trauma bond with B?
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 10, 2020 21:06:50 GMT
Trn- are you suggesting you don’t have a trauma bond with B? You mean a feeling of codependency? I am absolutely sure that played a role, as did my low Serotonin and trauma from my past as did his ADHD and whatever trauma he was still carrying around. I think you will need to expand on what you mean by trauma bonding.
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Post by dhali on Mar 10, 2020 21:08:09 GMT
Intermittent reenforcement. An honest assessment.
I also think you’re possibly missing the point of - if things were different, then things would be different. It feels as if you’re married to a narrative.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 10, 2020 21:24:45 GMT
Intermittent reenforcement. An honest assessment. I also think you’re possibly missing the point of - if things were different, then things would be different. It feels as if you’re married to a narrative. Oh....it isn’t explained that way in the articles I read. I am not married to a narrative, I just never got to experience a different one with him...although, I do think I wanted a chance at that...just so I could say I did everything I could and he ended up no different with me. That is what finally helped me to break free of an NPD I was dating.....I learned everything I could and applied all of these mature changes and it did nothing to stop him from devaluating and discarding me.
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Post by dhali on Mar 10, 2020 21:48:54 GMT
Trn- I still feel as if you’re missing the point, and I’m not sure how to be clearer. You know what they say- the onus of understanding is in the communicator, not the receiver. I’m sorry, it would seem I failed.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 11, 2020 9:25:05 GMT
Trn- I still feel as if you’re missing the point, and I’m not sure how to be clearer. You know what they say- the onus of understanding is in the communicator, not the receiver. I’m sorry, it would seem I failed. I pondered this a bit and I think I now understand...you are referring to the intermittent reinforcement that created a trauma bond for me. The push/pull so to speak. And if there wasn’t that with B, would I even have found him so attractive etc. That is a really good point because he had been in our community since September and I did not really notice him until January when he introduced me to his son (he brought him to church one day). Now that I am where I am, I can’t really think of him as being someone I wouldn’t want...but....I see your point.
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Post by toorational on Mar 19, 2020 16:08:18 GMT
A good way to express needs is to start with the positive...”I really love when we spend time together doing x, recently I have felt that we haven’t spent as much time doing x and that has made me feel y”. It is good that you see improvements....is she open to seeing someone together? Good tip, I'm trying to do that, thanks. As for seeing someone together, perhaps, we touched on the idea at some point. So far I went alone but that obviously has not been enough. We had a big talk last night, the most honest we probably had, ever. She has been increasingly distant in the past few weeks so obviously I was triggered and instead of letting it slide I asked her if there was a problem. My "radar" wasn't off this time. Ok, so where to start... I came to realize that the crux of our issue is lack of commitment in the relationship on her part. Commitment to me means some kind of sign that we're moving from a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship to a longer term committed relationship. The usual commitments are: getting married, having kids together, moving in together. I'm expecting some kind of commitment after 3 years but I always feel that she has one foot in the relationship and one foot out. She likes to keep her options open and doesn't want to feel trapped. The subject of moving in together is an example of her reluctance to commit. She admitted to me last night that "it might never happen, I can't guarantee that it will". And she doesn't want to feel pressured into a timeline either. We had talked about scenarios a few months back (like moving in together when her youngest child goes to college) but she admitted to me that that discussion had cast doubts in her mind about the future of our relationship. Basically I'm looking for some kind of commitment but she's not ready to give one, or worse, gets turn-off because of this need of mine. It's probably in her DNA, she never married even in her previous long-term relationship. She seemingly values her independence and liberty too much. We discussed this last night and she basically said "perhaps you're right". The other option is that I'm not "the one". Maybe she'd commit to the right guy, I don't know but somehow I don't think so. I explained to her that this hesitancy of hers to commit is the source of my anxiety. Because of that, I become more attuned to her signs of withdrawal. Sure, I probably make mistakes sometimes and misread her, but I'm fairly confident now that when I detect her distancing, it's real, it's not just my anxiety playing tricks on me. In any case, I was right in her distancing the past few weeks, she admitted to it. She said that for the first time since our discussion about moving in, she's had doubts about the relationship. Doubts that she was the right person for me. Doubts that she could love me the way that I want to be loved. I don't think that I'm particularly asking for much, I just want *consistent* signs of affection from her. I want to feel loved every day (ok, most days will do). I want her to grab my hand when I reach for hers in the car, not stay immobile. I don't want silence from her after I say "I love you". I want at least cuddling in bed each night. I want real french kisses and not reluctant ones. I want to feel desired and I want her to initiate sex sometimes too (like she used to do). All these things and more come very naturally for her when we're in a "good phase". The problem is when we enter a "bad phase". What triggers it? I think I understand now. It is crux #2. What triggers her is the slightest criticism that her affectionate behavior is not "good enough". Exhibit A: this past weekend when we did a long snowshoe ride together. She actually provided the example herself last night. I have knee problems so I was not able to keep up with her. The gap between us would slowly increase, to the point where she might be a few minutes ahead and I couldn't see her anymore. I was hurt that she was not being more considerate of my pace and that we were not walking together. I thought long and hard about how to bring it up without hurting her feelings. I waited a bit, hoping that this would resolve itself and that she would start walking my pace. But no. So finally I tried to use the *I* technique and I said "I would really love if you could walk at my pace so that we can walk together". She said sorry, she tends not to notice when I'm too far back (how is that even possible when I'm several minutes behind...). Anyway, she brought this up as an example that I'm too sensitive and my feelings get hurt too easily and I should just have said "can you walk slower please" according to her. So I failed even though I tried very hard to be as considerate as possible. I'm always walking on egg shells it seems. I was glad that she brought that up because I used it as an example myself to illustrate how she's triggered by the slightest hint that her behavior is not adequate and she uses that as a confirmation that "she can't love me the way I need to be loved". But it's just because we're in a bad phase. Had we been in a good phase, she would have walked at my pace without even making an effort or realizing it. So after that event this weekend, the effect on her unbeknownst to me, she distanced herself even more, which eventually triggered last night talk. Sorry it's been very long but it's my therapy. To summarize, there are two issues that I'm not sure can be fixed to be honest: our incompatibility in what we want in this relationship (commitment vs liberty/independence) and her hypersensitivity to behavioral criticism (not far off from gaslighting if I push it a bit). The talk last night had the same effect on her than our similar talk 6 months ago. It was some sort of wake up call for her. She cried, said "I'm sorry", said "I love you", we had sex. But as usual, I did most of the talking and we really did not resolve the two big points above. I think that I have reached a point in this relationship where I can't take this anymore. I can't accept her slow withdrawal over weeks/months and a rebound when I finally ask her what's wrong and we have a discussion about it. She has doubts now. So do I. Either we find a true resolution to the two points above or we'll have to go our separate ways. I would hate to see that happen because 95% of this relationship is perfect. But the 5% is eating me alive.
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Post by amber on Mar 20, 2020 2:05:58 GMT
A good way to express needs is to start with the positive...”I really love when we spend time together doing x, recently I have felt that we haven’t spent as much time doing x and that has made me feel y”. It is good that you see improvements....is she open to seeing someone together? Good tip, I'm trying to do that, thanks. As for seeing someone together, perhaps, we touched on the idea at some point. So far I went alone but that obviously has not been enough. We had a big talk last night, the most honest we probably had, ever. She has been increasingly distant in the past few weeks so obviously I was triggered and instead of letting it slide I asked her if there was a problem. My "radar" wasn't off this time. Ok, so where to start... I came to realize that the crux of our issue is lack of commitment in the relationship on her part. Commitment to me means some kind of sign that we're moving from a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship to a longer term committed relationship. The usual commitments are: getting married, having kids together, moving in together. I'm expecting some kind of commitment after 3 years but I always feel that she has one foot in the relationship and one foot out. She likes to keep her options open and doesn't want to feel trapped. The subject of moving in together is an example of her reluctance to commit. She admitted to me last night that "it might never happen, I can't guarantee that it will". And she doesn't want to feel pressured into a timeline either. We had talked about scenarios a few months back (like moving in together when her youngest child goes to college) but she admitted to me that that discussion had cast doubts in her mind about the future of our relationship. Basically I'm looking for some kind of commitment but she's not ready to give one, or worse, gets turn-off because of this need of mine. It's probably in her DNA, she never married even in her previous long-term relationship. She seemingly values her independence and liberty too much. We discussed this last night and she basically said "perhaps you're right". The other option is that I'm not "the one". Maybe she'd commit to the right guy, I don't know but somehow I don't think so. I explained to her that this hesitancy of hers to commit is the source of my anxiety. Because of that, I become more attuned to her signs of withdrawal. Sure, I probably make mistakes sometimes and misread her, but I'm fairly confident now that when I detect her distancing, it's real, it's not just my anxiety playing tricks on me. In any case, I was right in her distancing the past few weeks, she admitted to it. She said that for the first time since our discussion about moving in, she's had doubts about the relationship. Doubts that she was the right person for me. Doubts that she could love me the way that I want to be loved. I don't think that I'm particularly asking for much, I just want *consistent* signs of affection from her. I want to feel loved every day (ok, most days will do). I want her to grab my hand when I reach for hers in the car, not stay immobile. I don't want silence from her after I say "I love you". I want at least cuddling in bed each night. I want real french kisses and not reluctant ones. I want to feel desired and I want her to initiate sex sometimes too (like she used to do). All these things and more come very naturally for her when we're in a "good phase". The problem is when we enter a "bad phase". What triggers it? I think I understand now. It is crux #2. What triggers her is the slightest criticism that her affectionate behavior is not "good enough". Exhibit A: this past weekend when we did a long snowshoe ride together. She actually provided the example herself last night. I have knee problems so I was not able to keep up with her. The gap between us would slowly increase, to the point where she might be a few minutes ahead and I couldn't see her anymore. I was hurt that she was not being more considerate of my pace and that we were not walking together. I thought long and hard about how to bring it up without hurting her feelings. I waited a bit, hoping that this would resolve itself and that she would start walking my pace. But no. So finally I tried to use the *I* technique and I said "I would really love if you could walk at my pace so that we can walk together". She said sorry, she tends not to notice when I'm too far back (how is that even possible when I'm several minutes behind...). Anyway, she brought this up as an example that I'm too sensitive and my feelings get hurt too easily and I should just have said "can you walk slower please" according to her. So I failed even though I tried very hard to be as considerate as possible. I'm always walking on egg shells it seems. I was glad that she brought that up because I used it as an example myself to illustrate how she's triggered by the slightest hint that her behavior is not adequate and she uses that as a confirmation that "she can't love me the way I need to be loved". But it's just because we're in a bad phase. Had we been in a good phase, she would have walked at my pace without even making an effort or realizing it. So after that event this weekend, the effect on her unbeknownst to me, she distanced herself even more, which eventually triggered last night talk. Sorry it's been very long but it's my therapy. To summarize, there are two issues that I'm not sure can be fixed to be honest: our incompatibility in what we want in this relationship (commitment vs liberty/independence) and her hypersensitivity to behavioral criticism (not far off from gaslighting if I push it a bit). The talk last night had the same effect on her than our similar talk 6 months ago. It was some sort of wake up call for her. She cried, said "I'm sorry", said "I love you", we had sex. But as usual, I did most of the talking and we really did not resolve the two big points above. I think that I have reached a point in this relationship where I can't take this anymore. I can't accept her slow withdrawal over weeks/months and a rebound when I finally ask her what's wrong and we have a discussion about it. She has doubts now. So do I. Either we find a true resolution to the two points above or we'll have to go our separate ways. I would hate to see that happen because 95% of this relationship is perfect. But the 5% is eating me alive. I had a very similar experience with my ex FA who was never sure if he would ever want to live with me. Always one foot in and one out, didn’t plan a future for himself so didn’t see how he could plan one for the r/ship. Her walking ahead of your is just downright disrespectful and shows even more disrespect to your feelings when she shut you down for trying to express your feelings and needs.i wouldn’t tolerate that.
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Post by anne12 on Mar 20, 2020 3:24:30 GMT
toorational This walking ahead of you can be one of their traits: From the healing avoidant thread: Walking patterns: When you go for a walk, lets say when you are on vacation, and your partner almost all the time walks in front of you and your partner dosent notice that you could be out of sync: (maybe you have told you partner before, if he/she can wait for you to catch up, and your partner have said yes, but still forgets about it): A solution could be : snap them out of it by suggesting that you go for coffee at a cafe nearby or that you want to bye something in a store. Then they maybe will wait for you or come back to you, and you can enjoy some time together. Avidants are often single focused and paralell focused instead of thinking of it as a joint adventure. Often they do not notice, that they are out of sync with their partner, so if you take it personal, try not to. The avoidant can also practise joint attention activities in their daily life - ex. go for a walk side by side with a friend, your partner ect. (Recommended by Diane Poole Heller) jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/934/avoidant-traits
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Post by toorational on Mar 20, 2020 17:58:40 GMT
Yes, her walking ahead is definitely a DA trait. I'm willing to accept it, I can't change her completely. However the real problem is the her reaction when I mentioned it. She kept a grudge inside for several days before finally saying that I had been too sensitive. We need to learn how to handle these situations better.
So I wrote her a long letter yesterday, not really knowing if I had the guts to send it to her or not. At first it was simply therapy for me to write all my feelings and the ways she hurt me down. In the end, it took lots of courage but I gave it to her. It really was/is a "double or quits" bet (not sure if it's the correct translation). I took a huge risk because it was already going better after our talk Wednesday night. But I knew it was only a matter of time until we fell in a negative loop again and I can't stand it anymore. I had to tell her how I felt and how I'm being hurt but the many little signs of detachment.
In my letter I explained that I kinda reached the realization that I'm right to feel hurt when she does certain things and it's not just my anxiety blowing things out of proportions. I gave her several examples of little hurtful things she does and how it hurts me (for example, sometimes I hug her from behind and give her a kiss on the neck, but she stays absolutely immobile, zero reciprocation or sign of appreciation, that hurts).
I'm basically tired of always taking the blame when a conflict arises. I'm standing up for myself now. When I complain about a hurtful thing she does, she usually goes into gaslighting mode and will throw it back at me, basically saying that I'm too sensitive or demanding. Not anymore. In a normal healthy relationship the stuff she does doesn't happen. It also doesn't happen when we're in a good phase as I said. We can go months of her being affectionate with zero DA signs. But inevitably she will start distancing again.
She cried a lot when she read the letter. At first she said let's take a week-long break but that didn't last. We made love this morning and reconnected. Still not sure where we stand though. She said she's not sure she can give me what I need (commitment). She also said that she's not sure that she knows how to love deeply the way I love her (she asked, how do I know I love her). She mentioned her troubled past and how she probably built a shell around her that prevents her from deeply loving someone. She also admitted that the trigger for her distancing is that the problems in my life are affecting her (behavior problem with my son, troubles with my crazy ex, bouts of depression lately, etc). Basically instead of being supportive, it makes her question things and her love for me. It was quite troubling to hear. My ex ruined my life 4 years ago, she was a big issue in my past 6 mo relationship and again in this current relationship. I'm tired of her ruining my love life.
Anyway, I now understand that I can't rely on my partner for emotional support. I can't ask her to be my therapist. Fair enough, I can live with that. I had read previously that it was not necessarily a good idea to do so anyway, but I had no idea that it had such an effect on her.
On my end I will try to settle things with my ex. For one, finalize the divorce. It's quite complicated because I'm giving her our condo (I'm keeping the house) but she can't afford a mortgage. So we need to sell it but it's been on the market for 1.5 years already. Complicated as I said. I will start psychologist sessions with my son in two weeks so that should help as well. But deep down I have doubts about the future of this relationship and so does she. I love her to death but I also cannot stand to get hurt by her distancing anymore. It's eating me alive and contributing to my bouts of depression. I just so wish we could keep the "good phase" going forever, we're so happy together in those times! I will miss that a lot if we end up breaking. I know that people always say that, but I don't know how I could ever find someone as great (in good times) as her. She's every guy's fantasy: smart, beautiful, awesome body, in tremendously good shape, athletic, very sexual in bed, outgoing, we have lots of hobbies in common, etc. Basically I lucked out. I'm not bad myself but she's definitely above my league. Perhaps that's part of the problem, she has the balance of power in the relationship.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 20, 2020 20:17:25 GMT
She's every guy's fantasy: smart, beautiful, awesome body, in tremendously good shape, athletic, very sexual in bed, outgoing, we have lots of hobbies in common, etc. Basically I lucked out. I'm not bad myself but she's definitely above my league. Perhaps that's part of the problem, she has the balance of power in the relationship.
I always find it interesting what we value in another person....what I don’t read is emotional intelligence or able to handle conflicts well...looks change, our body ages, our minds do as well....I do understand being attracted to someone...having chemistry with them...but chemistry will not get you through conflict, it won’t help when you are in two different emotional spaces.
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Post by serenity on Mar 20, 2020 20:37:54 GMT
On my end I will try to settle things with my ex. For one, finalize the divorce. It's quite complicated because I'm giving her our condo (I'm keeping the house) but she can't afford a mortgage. So we need to sell it but it's been on the market for 1.5 years already. Complicated as I said. I will start psychologist sessions with my son in two weeks so that should help as well. But deep down I have doubts about the future of this relationship and so does she. I love her to death but I also cannot stand to get hurt by her distancing anymore. It's eating me alive and contributing to my bouts of depression. I just so wish we could keep the "good phase" going forever, we're so happy together in those times! I will miss that a lot if we end up breaking. I know that people always say that, but I don't know how I could ever find someone as great (in good times) as her. She's every guy's fantasy: smart, beautiful, awesome body, in tremendously good shape, athletic, very sexual in bed, outgoing, we have lots of hobbies in common, etc. Basically I lucked out. I'm not bad myself but she's definitely above my league. Perhaps that's part of the problem, she has the balance of power in the relationship. Good for you sending the letter; I'm glad you're standing up for yourself. Relationships can truly be so much more fulfilling and positive than this. I know guys are trained to project a lot of positive traits onto beautiful women (that usually don't really exist). But consider more carefully your actual romantic needs here: you need reciprocal affection, love, and committment. You need positive affirmation, rather than negative. You need someone stable who sees you as important, worth loving, and worth knowing on a deep level. And then there's the hard times: In our country, thousands of couples have endured things like loss of their homes and dreams due to bushfires. Death of loved ones. Job loss and poverty. Where does a hot body factor into this? It really doesn't. What brings couples through tragedy, or doesn't, is character and love, and that's all. Find someone who will always be there for you, laugh with you through hard times, see your best and encourage you at your worst. Then you will have someone really special. Make no mistake, your Miss hot-bod will be out the door at the first sign of hardship or any real expression of need from you.
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