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Post by tnr9 on Mar 24, 2020 14:30:47 GMT
Small update. We're not really talking much lately so I sent another e-mail last night, clarifying that I'm not asking for a commitment right away, but rather, at least some change from the status quo (i.e. we need to do some work). I also mentioned the 3 thirds relationship model. She replied something interesting and it's that this 3 thirds model lacks something important : external factors that we can't control. It's actually external factors this time (not my AP behavior, which is largely in check) that made her distance herself. I mentioned it here before but these external factors are mainly the behavioral issues of my son and the recurring problems with my ex. She wants to go completely no contact for a few days to give her time to pounder all of this and figure out if she can live with these external factors long time. She's had bad insomnia the past few days and can't think straight when she's tired. Strangely enough, I'm sleeping relatively well all things considered. The first letter I sent was a huge relief. Things I needed to say for a long time. It's like if the relationship dynamics have turned. For the first time ever in this relationship, I gained some control. I reread an article about childhood trauma leading to DA and a few sentences ring so true: "You may hide your feelings, push people away, keep secrets, and shut down when others show emotion." "You may feel uncomfortable when your partner shows anger or sadness and not know how to react. And you may pull away, or grab on too tightly, thus harming both your relationship and the person you love." www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/mindful-anger/201708/4-ways-traumatic-childhood-affects-adult-relationshipsThis is so her. I wish she would read up a bit on attachment theory. I talked about it a few times and we even listened to a podcast about it together. But she never showed interest in digging deeper by herself. Right now...I would encourage you to turn the focus back to yourself while she does the same. Why are you so keen for her to read up on attachment theory? Do you believe it will spark change? She may view it through a very different lens then you do and as such, it may not be useful to her journey.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 26, 2020 5:32:06 GMT
I also mentioned the 3 thirds relationship model. She replied something interesting and it's that this 3 thirds model lacks something important : external factors that we can't control. It's actually external factors this time (not my AP behavior, which is largely in check) that made her distance herself. I mentioned it here before but these external factors are mainly the behavioral issues of my son and the recurring problems with my ex. Thanks for the callout. Glad it's helping you. External issues are included in the model. Her external issues that are unrelated to you (and for which she doesn't directly seek help from you) still fall into a "her" problem. Independent responsibility and issues don't need to simply be attachment-related. I was just using your AP and her DA as examples. It's positive that she eventually communicated honestly and clearly with you about it instead of continuing to not mention what was wrong. However, if she is overwhelmed by your son and your ex, she should be actively discussing that with you, not waiting until she is so overwhelmed that she needs distance. At this point, it is her issue and she needs to figure out why those things overwhelm her (and you need to give her the space to do so since she requested it, which you are doing of course), but it bleeds into the third that's the relationship and compatibility -- how she handled what was bothering her was extremely avoidant. She wasn't upfront with you until you repeatedly asked her for clarity and instead initially pushed you away without much discussion. Is that compatible for you?
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Post by toorational on Mar 26, 2020 10:52:41 GMT
tnr9, at this point I'm more in a "wait and see" mode. I've already done tons of introspection, and for the first time in a long time, I'm not second guessing myself, I'm at ease with my decision. I'm keen on her using attachment theory because I think that it's a great model that describes what we're going through very well, and I think that it could help her. But of course she's free to get help in her own way. alexandra, thanks for your reply, I was hoping to hear from you. I was probably not clear about external factors. It's not bothering her directly, but rather, it's the effect on me that raises doubts for her. It has a negative effect on me and I've been a bit depressed in the past 2-3 months. I'm basically going through a rough patch but I'm taking actions to resolve things. I will soon see a psychologist for my son for example. I also have a bit of money issues because of the hefty child support I must pay. So I made a budget and will try to cut back on my expenses. But she says that every time I talk to her about my problems, it eventually takes a toll on her and raises doubts for her. I'm fine with sharing less of my problems with her and instead rely on external support (friends, psychologist, etc). But still, it raises doubts in my mind about a long term relationship with her. I will go through other rough patches in my life and it doesn't seem right that I can't rely on my partner in these times of need, otherwise I risk pushing her away. Let me vent a bit... I'm probably exaggerating right now but I feel like any deviation from the perfect "alpha male" causes her to lose attraction. I feel like she needs this perfect guy without problems in his life to keep her interested. Oh and he also needs to be independent and not ask too much from her. She needs her liberty and independence you know. But he also must treat her well and be nice to her, because her past boyfriends were not like that. Basically he needs to be there for her when she wants, and back off when his mind reading skills tell him to do so. His needs? What needs? Alpha males don't outerly display needs. They are strong and self reliant. Ok, rant finished. That felt good to get that off my chest. I would never have the courage to tell that to her but that's how I feel sometimes. Do I accept the way she hid what was bothering her from me and instead gave me the could shoulder and kept me guessing? Left me wondering if there was an underlying issue of if it was just my AP playing tricks on me (and driving me crazy in the process)? That's a big no and that's the whole reason why we are in this situation right now and why I wrote the letter. Every time she denies me a bit of affection, it's like death by a thousand cuts. I can't take it anymore. It's contributing to me feeling a bit down lately, on top of everything else. So of course it's a downward spiral. She wanted to talk last night but I was already asleep. It's faster than I anticipated. I thought that she wouldn't contact me until this weekend when she doesn't have her kids anymore. We'll see.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 26, 2020 12:11:55 GMT
tnr9 , at this point I'm more in a "wait and see" mode. I've already done tons of introspection, and for the first time in a long time, I'm not second guessing myself, I'm at ease with my decision. I'm keen on her using attachment theory because I think that it's a great model that describes what we're going through very well, and I think that it could help her. But of course she's free to get help in her own way. alexandra , thanks for your reply, I was hoping to hear from you. I was probably not clear about external factors. It's not bothering her directly, but rather, it's the effect on me that raises doubts for her. It has a negative effect on me and I've been a bit depressed in the past 2-3 months. I'm basically going through a rough patch but I'm taking actions to resolve things. I will soon see a psychologist for my son for example. I also have a bit of money issues because of the hefty child support I must pay. So I made a budget and will try to cut back on my expenses. But she says that every time I talk to her about my problems, it eventually takes a toll on her and raises doubts for her. I'm fine with sharing less of my problems with her and instead rely on external support (friends, psychologist, etc). But still, it raises doubts in my mind about a long term relationship with her. I will go through other rough patches in my life and it doesn't seem right that I can't rely on my partner in these times of need, otherwise I risk pushing her away. Let me vent a bit... I'm probably exaggerating right now but I feel like any deviation from the perfect "alpha male" causes her to lose attraction. I feel like she needs this perfect guy without problems in his life to keep her interested. Oh and he also needs to be independent and not ask too much from her. She needs her liberty and independence you know. But he also must treat her well and be nice to her, because her past boyfriends were not like that. Basically he needs to be there for her when she wants, and back off when his mind reading skills tell him to do so. His needs? What needs? Alpha males don't outerly display needs. They are strong and self reliant. Ok, rant finished. That felt good to get that off my chest. I would never have the courage to tell that to her but that's how I feel sometimes. Do I accept the way she hid what was bothering her from me and instead gave me the could shoulder and kept me guessing? Left me wondering if there was an underlying issue of if it was just my AP playing tricks on me (and driving me crazy in the process)? That's a big no and that's the whole reason why we are in this situation right now and why I wrote the letter. Every time she denies me a bit of affection, it's like death by a thousand cuts. I can't take it anymore. It's contributing to me feeling a bit down lately, on top of everything else. So of course it's a downward spiral. She wanted to talk last night but I was already asleep. It's faster than I anticipated. I thought that she wouldn't contact me until this weekend when she doesn't have her kids anymore. We'll see. The “just right” partner does seem to be a common theme here. That was a huge issue for me as well....feeling like if I wasn’t spot on as far as being chill, easy going etc. that he was going to leave. I do believe that B had a vision of what he wanted and when I deviated from that, the doubts would loom large again. The thing is...he would never say...hey, I am really struggling with “x”, let’s discuss it. He would either lash out, or avoid and I am not a mind reader. I personally want a partner who I can opening share thoughts and feelings...not that my partner is everything...but....I want my partner’s guidance....so I will not settle anymore if I feel that is unwelcome.
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Post by toorational on Mar 26, 2020 14:01:24 GMT
So she wrote me a long e-mail this morning (her longest ever). She said that she felt bad to leave me hanging for too long. In it, she really opened up about her feelings for me, what turns her off, etc. She had never been that open before, so I appreciate it. It would be too long to go into details right now but it's essentially what I already posted here, with small nuances. I don't know if we're gonna be able to get through this.
She's open to further discussions. Unfortunately she insists on keeping a 1 m distance because of the coronavirus for the foreseeable future. She doesn't trust that my ex is taking the issue seriously enough and is worried that I'll become contaminated through the kids. I'm deeply hurt by this stance, am I overreacting? I know we're on a break so that muddies the water but how would you react if your loved one would not even want to be near you anymore? To me it's just another sign that her love for me is not very deep.
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Post by dhali on Mar 26, 2020 15:23:37 GMT
It’s completely fine that she doesn’t want to get contaminated. This is not a trust issue, but a quarantine one. It doesn’t sound as if you take it all that seriously. It is serious.
The other stuff... I’m sorry you’re going through this. Does this sound like the way you want to spend the rest of your life? It also sounds as if you spend a ton of time trying to “fix” her. That would wear down on anyone. She sent you her letter, and it’s aligned with your thoughts. The truth is she’s looking for the perfect partner. That’s not you. That’s not anyone. If she wants the alpha male, this is when he walks away without ever looking back. I know it’s hard, but this already sounds over. I’m sorry.
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Post by toorational on Mar 26, 2020 16:35:15 GMT
About the quarantine, ok, fair enough.
Yes, perhaps I am attempting to fix her. Another way to look at it is that I'm finally clear on what I will and will not accept. The only way I see this working is that if we both work on our third of the relationship on our side and we work together on the last third. I don't necessarily want to be the one "fixing" her but I want her to go on an improving journey. She said in her letter that she wants to work on herself too so that's really a good sign. She admitted that she has trouble talking about what she feels, and that instead, it shows up in her actions and she hurts me. She also said that "I have improved 1000x in the last 20 years, imagine in 20 more years".
So yes perhaps you're right and it's already over, but as long as she's willing to put effort into the relationship, there is a glimmer of hope and I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet.
But the real source of all these problems is certain things that I do that turn her off. I'm hesitant to share because it's quite crude but she really talked without a filter and we might as well get to the bottom of this. So here goes a (translated) extract:
"I think that the personality trait that repels me the most is when you get discouraged, like your son. It's strange because you are so tenacious for physical things but when it comes to yourself, it seems that you give up. I don't know if I explain myself well so here's an example. It's a bit like the snowshoe hike when you told me "It's not my fault that I can't keep up, it's my first time doing this kind of expedition" or when you arrived next to me with a beaten dog face telling me: please walk at my speed. As I told you it's not the fact that you wanted me to walk at your speed that bothers me, it's how you go into whining mode (i.e. poor me, no one understands me). I'm sorry but it's not just with you, it's generalized for me, I'm unable to deal with people that whine about their situation. Probably because I had my own share of harsh problems or something like that. But what I do know is that I always get the same reaction with anyone."
Yes, I fully admit that I was saddened and hurt by the fact that she was not considerate enough to walk at my speed. I guess that's not alpha enough, I should not have shown my emotions then. We'll have to talk this over because I don't really consider myself a whiny person at all. In fact my ex and a coworker both said that what their admire about me is my resiliency. I've had my share of challenges in life but I always bounced back, never staying down for too long. But I open up to my girlfriend and share my feelings. Perhaps that's why she feels that I'm whiny. I guess she prefers the old-fashion way of men keeping everything inside.
:sigh:
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Post by anne12 on Mar 26, 2020 17:14:50 GMT
toorational You and your girlfriend are speaking different languages. Look at this thread to get inputs on how to talk to her. You have to speak to the logical part of her brain. jebkinnison.boards.net/thread/2289/tips-create-lasting-juicy-relationshipEach of you can also try to write a love vision to become more aware of your deal-breakers and what each of you want from a relationship. And then compare and talk about them. Maybe you are just not compatible. ? The "whining and complaining" ect can be perceived as if you are blaming her. Sounds like she is more in her masculine energy and you are more in your feminine energy. You do not have to become an alpha male to get more into your masculine energy. The recommended "Corona distance" is 2-3 meters, and no touching ,😉 Maybe you haven't come to the "stay inside recommendations" in your country/the state you live in yet ? (I wouldn't let you in to my house) Being in survival mode can make you less empathetic. www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-new-york-safe-sex-1493598
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Post by toorational on Mar 26, 2020 18:45:55 GMT
anne12, there's lot of different advice on that thread, can you point me to something more precise if possible? Yes, definitely a lot of times I feel like I complain about stuff that usually women complain about and she's acting like a man. Oh well. It's probably why we were attracted to each other in the first place. She said that she scares a lot of men away. She's very strong physically and mentally. She bikes faster than 90-95% of men (faster than me anyway). But I'm ok with that, I'm no slouch myself. My self esteem is not based on how much faster I bike than my girlfriend. Still, it's not like she completely has the male role and me, the female. In terms of sex for example, I definitely act in the male role. I initiate often, have a higher libido than her, entice her to try new things, take control, etc. Yes, there are social distancing recommendations here too and I'm being very careful. No I wouldn't enter your house. I'm working mostly from home and only go to the office at night when there are very few people, and only if I have to. But I thought that it didn't apply to those already living together? So we were not living together 100% of the time, but perhaps 50%. Grey zone I'd say. Anyhow, I'm not pushing it. I admit that it's safer that way. Doesn't make it any easier though but perhaps this time apart will be for the better.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 26, 2020 19:30:57 GMT
toorational, it is very common for insecurely attached people to want "perfect" partners. This, in my opinion, is related to wanting to control their own environment as much as possible (which is a fallacy and it's grasping at perception of control because they couldn't control whatever caused them to evolve insecure attachment) plus getting indefinitely stuck at the fantasy bond stage. Both of these are complicated personal issues that require independent work, and the insecure person who has them has to be self-motivated to want to grow past both. You can't do anything to change it, because it goes back to her wanting to earn secure or not. You can look through your own lens about to what extent you may do the same sorts of things in some of your own relationships. The way I did these things as AP was less obvious than I'd see from avoidants, but it was still hidden underneath other insecure layers of mine and making me somewhat emotionally unavailable / choosing (avoidant) unavailable partners. While the physical distancing thing may reflect some of her desire for control, she's also right. That's nothing personal, and I'm currently doing the same thing to everyone no matter who they are and no matter how inconvenient it is. She's right that children don't have the capacity to be incredibly diligent about distancing, and therefore if she's trying to be cautious she needs to stay her distance from you no matter how careful you yourself may be. However, there are several other ways to stay connected at this time if the two people prioritize it, so it doesn't need to be a longer-term excuse to cut all connection and forms of emotional intimacy. I still think it's a good sign that she's trying to reach out and explain herself and her needs now, even if they don't mesh with yours. Good communication and transparency is the only way you get enough information to figure out if the relationship is compatible and can give it a fair shot. If it turns out you're not compatible, at least you're both being open and treating each other with mutual respect and can both let go with love and care. One way in which anxious-avoidant relationships can drag out painfully and still fail is both partners are too disconnected from themselves to be fully honest with themselves and each other about what they want and need. They instead try to live in the fantasy bond because their nervous systems get overwhelmed or shut down if anything pushes past that stage and it feels bad / uncomfortable / unfamiliar / weird / boring (this directly relates to a defense mechanism kicking in due to childhood pain when things got deeper with insecure and unavailable caregivers). Finally, in regards to her not liking the way you deal with the stress of your child / ex and it in turn stressing her out... as other posters here are saying, and you yourself are even saying, this may be a fundamental incompatibility. It does sound like a classic AP / DA clash of needs. You're looking for external help in regulating your emotions and stress around these problems, and she is getting overwhelmed by having to process your emotions for you because she doesn't know how to set and communicate her boundaries. She wants to help but is avoidant, so a lot of emotions engulf and overwhelm her. In the past, it sounds like she's chosen to not speak up and stuff it down, which will make her quietly resentful and you would legitimately have no idea why because she didn't directly communicate (though she'd probably indicate through "hints" of getting distant). Whether or not you two can fix this together, you have a really good opportunity to reflect on your third of this (how you handle stress and fix your own personal problems, and being AP definitely creates patterns within your own life for both because all APs start from a place of not trusting themselves -- a big area that requires work to start trusting yourself which leads to healing). She's reflecting on her third by attempting to communicate better even though you had to prod her into that, so do take that as a sign of caring and that she has respect for you. And then it's good practice for you to acknowledge what she's said and express appreciation for her communication (you want to positively reinforce and make it so that hard emotional conversations between you two aren't scary fights that go in exhausting circles without any resolution), really try to connect with yourself and try to honestly express your feelings and needs in kind even if it's scary (so that you can both have an actual dialog with each other once everything's laid out), and then practice working on the "us" relationship third by seeing if you can problem-solve in a healthy way that isn't one of you just acquiescing to the other to push the problem down. Try actually solving it together. Her saying, I just don't want to hear about it anymore and you saying okay fine I'll only discuss it with others, but you secretly feeling upset that you can't share something important that you want to share with your partner, is not a good compromise solution. It will only work if you truly don't mind not talking to her about it versus you're just doing it to avoid another argument and make her happy by sacrificing your own needs.
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Post by toorational on Mar 26, 2020 23:27:32 GMT
Wow, thanks alexandra and caro, great comments. Yes, we might have a fundamental incompatibility. I'm still not sure at this point whether or not we can make it work but it's indeed a great incompatibility, greater than I had realized only a few months ago. She wrote me another letter this afternoon where she really opened up about her childhood. I will not post this here out of respect and because it's not too relevant anyway (it just attempts to explain why she build a protecting shell around her). The point is that she trusts me enough to share all of that and it means a lot to me. I think that we have crossed the line where we are not afraid to say our deepest thoughts to each other, because we're not afraid to lose each other anymore. We both know that it's a very real possibility and we might as well get to the bottom of it. caro, yes I'm willing to invest years into improving this relationship, even with no guarantee that it will pan out. At the very least we will individually grow through the process and the 90% that is working out is so great that I'm willing to give it my best shot. The question is, is she? Speaking of being honest without pulling any punches, I will reply to one of her e-mail where I will address the snowshoe hike again because it keeps coming up. I don't know if I should but I will basically accuse her of gaslighting because that's how her reaction makes me feel. Rather than taking the blame for being inconsiderate and not waiting for me, she goes on the attack and tells me that I'm whiny. Am I right to see it as gaslighting? I don't want to make it sound too harsh but at the same time I really want to bring it up. We have such a different read on the situation that we need to flush this out. Regarding the need for constant reassuring, I understand what you're saying and yes, I was like that at the beginning. But we both improved on that. She became more consistent with periodic little loving texts and I also became less demanding. I shifted from "when in doubt, assume that she's losing interest" to "when in doubt, assume that she's busy, or tired, or xyz but she still loves you". I think that it worked out well for a while but then some of her actions didn't raise doubts in my head, they were crystal clear that she was pulling away. And I was right. Really thank you everyone for your support, it's helping me a lot to get through this.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 26, 2020 23:59:54 GMT
toorational, why approach it as "accusing" her? Just tell her you felt there was a mismatch between her words and actions, and that type of dissonance is negative and uncomfortable for you (as really, it is for anyone). You'll probably get through to her more easily if it's clear you're approaching it as a teammate, from a place of care but good boundaries, not as an offensive or defensive attack.
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Post by toorational on Mar 27, 2020 1:52:05 GMT
Well, I'm not sure how to phrase it without it sounding like an accusation. In the end I'm tired of always taking all the blame when something goes wrong. With the snowshoeing event, I really feel that she's the one in the wrong, not me. But here she is accusing me of being whiny. That's what I call gaslighting and I'm tired of it. I wish she would take part of the blame sometimes.
I'm such a wreck right now. I had the worse night ever with my son. I won't go into details because that's not the point here but at the worse of it, he bit me and asked me to kill him with a knife. My ex keeps telling me that it's normal behavior because he's a boy. Arrrggghhh! My GF wanted to have a light conversation tonight just to keep in touch but I declined in the end. I told her that I can't pretend that I had a good night and I don't wanna go into details about the events with my son because I don't wanna push her away even more. But I couldn't not talk about it tonight if we did talk.
I feel terrible right now. At least I still have a job, contrary to many people because of that damn virus.
Thanks for letting me vent here and for the help.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 27, 2020 3:54:15 GMT
toorational, I'm sorry about your night, and you're correct. Your ex is wrong, that's not normal just because he's a boy. If he has special needs (like autistic or ADD or mood disorder), I hope he's getting help, and if not maybe he can be evaluated? Anyway, I'd already suggested above what you can say to your DA that is direct but not accusatory. "Just tell her you felt there was a mismatch between her words and actions, and that type of dissonance is negative and uncomfortable for you." That's the underlying problem, right? Gaslighting is words / feelings / actions not being aligned and the other person creating dissonance in you by making you doubt your understanding of your surroundings. Crappy people do it on purpose to be manipulative and controlling. Insecurely attached people sometimes do it without realizing it because it's a maladaptive coping mechanism they learned worked earlier in life with someone else, so they may think more about it if called out.
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Post by toorational on Mar 27, 2020 13:33:22 GMT
Thanks again alexandra and caroline. Yes I'm seeking help for my son. Unfortunately the delays here are long but I'm finally supposed to get a first meeting with a psychologist next week. With the virus I'm not sure what's gonna happen though.
If you guys agree, I'd like to post here an extract of an e-mail I'd like to send about the snowshoe event. You tell me if it's too harsh or accusatory.
"For the snowshoeing event (we'll really need to get to the bottom of this), it affected me that much probably because I felt that you had already started to distance yourself a while ago. I wasn't down because I couldn't keep up with you (you know, I'm used to not being able to keep up with you and I deal with that very well), I was down because honestly it lacked consideration. I had the impression that you were not making any effort to walk together and/or that you didn't care. I'm not saying that you did this intentionally. Yes, I understand that you were in your own bubble. But that's the point, unconsciously, it was just another manifestation of your recent distancing. It was supposed to be our weekend together, not a time to escape in our own bubble. My radar wasn't too far off in the end, there was indeed something wrong, as you admitted in your letter.
All this snowshoeing story is and example of gaslighting which I talked about in my previous letter (the word is probably too harsh, I'm sorry I don't have another one). You don't take the blame for lacking consideration, and instead, you went on the attack. You're telling me that I'm the one with a problem. I shouldn't have been so affected. I'm whiny. I'm willing to take my part of the blame but I wish you would as well. That's what is hard to continuously deal with, it seems that I'm always the only one that admits mistakes in this relationship (excluding your latest messages, thanks for opening up)."
Fire away.
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