laney
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Post by laney on Jun 13, 2019 10:44:34 GMT
I am interested in hearing thoughts and input about avoidants (DA and FA) being triggered by avoidant behavior. I am a FA and I know that not only AP-like behavior can majorly threaten me but also any slight notion of the feeling of the other person's retreat, coolness or abandonment can trigger me. This trigger can sometimes push me into activation but very very often into retreat. This might not even be a conscious process. Having read that the DA need consistence and reliability, I wonder if it's the same for them, conscious or not. Beneath all this, a fear of abandonment.
I have observed some of these patters with myself but also with others... someone blocking someone else forever after not having heard from them within a reasonable time frame...an avoidant person answering the other person after 8 hours after the other persons had taken 4 hours to respond.... I think someone who wouldn't have been triggered or wouldn't care, wouldn't act strangely like that.
DA-AP relationships seem to be very common and a lot of advice how treat an avoidant seems to geared toward APs and to back down, leave them space, an so on... I have read before that one reason why the DA-AP relationship is so common is that sometimes the AP's insistence and not giving up can be the only way to actually get the avoidant into a relationship and although there are obviously major issues, only through the AP's approaching behavior true closeness and connection can even be established. This could happen with a secure-avoidant relationship as well (and would be better because it would be void of all the negative AP behavior and thoughts) but the secure just doesn't put up with the DA/FA for such a long time.
The APs behavior is threatening, yes, but I wonder if the DAs and FAs behavior can just be as threatening to us avoidants. Personally, if I am really honest to myself, I prefer extroverts and warm, uncomplicated people even as friends, because it makes me feel so much better about myself if they contact me more often than I contact them. It's like an ego boost and makes me feel loved. If I had to contact them more often or "run after them", it would trigger me so much I couldn't endure it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 11:47:01 GMT
laney, yes, I've written about this several times myself. There is an unconscious fear of abandonment in DA. If attached to another DA, loss triggers deactivation. For me, AP doesn't trigger deactivation because I don't get attached to AP any longer. I am just repelled by it. However I've been attached and in love with DA and vulnerability triggers self soothing (Which is what deactivation is). I used to attach to AP and deactivate because of their behavior but now I can't get that far with them. Waiting purposely to respond to punish a partner is protest behavior. (AP flavor- DA can have some in them and be pushed to it by another DA) .Deactivation is not a conscious manipulation. It's a shrinking away from pain. AP seem to scream SOOTHE ME! DA whisper (to themselves ) "I can soothe myself". It's all about feelings and pain.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 11:50:16 GMT
BTW I am fully conscious of my abandonment fears having come a long way to the more secure side. I have greatly reduced them even. However, deactivation is still in me. I am very aware of safe vs unsafe and healthy Vs unhealthy relationships for the most part (still learning) and so don't participate in dynamics that are insecure or damaging. But if I got deeply attached to another unhealthy DA I would be vulnerable to all this again.
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Post by katie454e on Jun 13, 2019 13:51:57 GMT
I'm a FA and I definitely get triggered by avoidant behaviour unless it comes from an AP who I suspect would do it to get a reaction out of me
The way I react to avoidance is usually retreat since I'm really scared of being seen as needy. It resulted in me losing a what I thought was a close friendship with a DA- He didn't respond to my message so I never bothered him again. It's been 8 months and I kind of miss him but I suppose it's too late.
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laney
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Post by laney on Jun 13, 2019 14:15:20 GMT
The way I react to avoidance is usually retreat since I'm really scared of being seen as needy. it's the same thing for me, I am terrified to be seen as needy. Do DAs have the same issue? |
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laney
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Post by laney on Jun 13, 2019 14:32:39 GMT
laney , yes, I've written about this several times myself. There is an unconscious fear of abandonment in DA. If attached to another DA, loss triggers deactivation. For me, AP doesn't trigger deactivation because I don't get attached to AP any longer. I am just repelled by it. However I've been attached and in love with DA and vulnerability triggers self soothing (Which is what deactivation is). I used to attach to AP and deactivate because of their behavior but now I can't get that far with them. Waiting purposely to respond to punish a partner is protest behavior. (AP flavor- DA can have some in them and be pushed to it by another DA) .Deactivation is not a conscious manipulation. It's a shrinking away from pain. how very interesting, thank you. How I could I distinguish between protest behavior and deactivation (in an avoidant)? I have waited to respond to a message because I was overwhelmed (response to AP), because I didn't want to seem needy (after the last message had come in late and because I had been waiting for it), and strangely, because receiving that message had made me so extremely happy that I froze in happiness and didn't know what the perfect response would be. AP seem to scream SOOTHE ME! DA whisper (to themselves ) "I can soothe myself". It's all about feelings and pain. That part of AP behavior is what seems very selfish to me sometimes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 14:41:10 GMT
laney, it's not useful for you to try to figure out the difference between protest behavior and deactivation in another avoidant if you are involved with one. That's something that is an internal determination for someone working in their own issues and I only mentioned it because I don't identify with it myself. I was differentiating. I myself wouldn't get into a discussion about that unless you want to know for your own internal reactions, I would be happy to unpack that with you specifically.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 14:45:56 GMT
The way I react to avoidance is usually retreat since I'm really scared of being seen as needy. it's the same thing for me, I am terrified to be seen as needy. Do DAs have the same issue? "Terrified" is such an anxious word lol. Rather, DA suppress and are not typically aware of their own neediness. If I realize I need something I just ask, I don't care if it sounds needy. Getting to the point of realizing I need and deserve something is the issue. Think of neglected child; used to self soothing. Conditioned to Not Need. This is different from a whole bunch of conscious fear that more anxious types seem to experience. The DA mantra is "I got this" and we are conditioned to not being important. Typically we aren't that overwhelmed by what people think of us. Everyone is different and this is all in a spectrum. But huge emotional reactions are readily suppressed. Minimized. We just expect to be let down and viewed negatively, it's not terrifying at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 15:20:02 GMT
The more I learn, the more it seems that AP and FA play emotional chess games, and DA try to just keep on playing their Solitaire. Think AUTO regulation vs External regulation. Think Insulation. If we think you are going to eff up this solitaire we have going we will move to another table instead of giving you our cards. Don't mess with our cards. We are winning this game alone. We can even be rebellious- you think I'm needy? Who cares. See ya. Never terrified to have the last word and be done. I'm not saying it's awesome I'm just saying- it's termed DISMISSIVE for a reason. People, feelings, needs, get dismissed. It's about self preservation , baby.  We look to ourselves for that, to our detriment sometimes but also sometimes because it's wise. |
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laney
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Post by laney on Jun 14, 2019 7:41:29 GMT
laney , it's not useful for you to try to figure out the difference between protest behavior and deactivation in another avoidant if you are involved with one. That's something that is an internal determination for someone working in their own issues and I only mentioned it because I don't identify with it myself. I was differentiating. I myself wouldn't get into a discussion about that unless you want to know for your own internal reactions, I would be happy to unpack that with you specifically. Yes, I want to know for my own internal reactions and because I am a analytical person, not because I want to try to figure anyone out in this case. The behavior of the avoidant I am involved with is so bizarre that I couldn't post about it here because he might understand that it was about him if he came across these forums, although I would like to understand the weirdness on an intellectual level. This is just news to me that avoidants can even exhibit protest behavior. Maybe it is more of an FA thing? I thought about it yesterday but it is still unclear to me. I do think that I understand the feeling of deactivation. |
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laney
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Post by laney on Jun 14, 2019 7:48:45 GMT
it's the same thing for me, I am terrified to be seen as needy. Do DAs have the same issue? "Terrified" is such an anxious word lol. Rather, DA suppress and are not typically aware of their own neediness. If I realize I need something I just ask, I don't care if it sounds needy. Getting to the point of realizing I need and deserve something is the issue. Think of neglected child; used to self soothing. Conditioned to Not Need. This is different from a whole bunch of conscious fear that more anxious types seem to experience. The DA mantra is "I got this" and we are conditioned to not being important. Typically we aren't that overwhelmed by what people think of us. Everyone is different and this is all in a spectrum. But huge emotional reactions are readily suppressed. Minimized. We just expect to be let down and viewed negatively, it's not terrifying at all. This is very interesting, too. Maybe being worried about being perceived as too needy, too eager and trying very hard to seem chill and less caring than the other person is typical FA behavior then. I think I know one true DA (family member) and I actually think they are a lot easier to deal with then the suspected FAs I know, because of the neurotic behavior of the FA. |
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laney
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Post by laney on Jun 14, 2019 8:12:58 GMT
The more I learn, the more it seems that AP and FA play emotional chess games, and DA try to just keep on playing their Solitaire. Think AUTO regulation vs External regulation. Think Insulation. If we think you are going to eff up this solitaire we have going we will move to another table instead of giving you our cards. Don't mess with our cards. We are winning this game alone. We can even be rebellious- you think I'm needy? Who cares. See ya. Never terrified to have the last word and be done. I'm not saying it's awesome I'm just saying- it's termed DISMISSIVE for a reason. People, feelings, needs, get dismissed. It's about self preservation , baby. We look to ourselves for that, to our detriment sometimes but also sometimes because it's wise. FA behavior is suspected to come from possible trauma, maybe parents who were enmeshed, maybe mentally ill or loving but threatening. Being hypervigilant to threats and little clues about the other person's behavior was absolutely necessary to survival, as well as hiding their own feelings and needs or even suppressing them. It was not possible to not care about the caregiver's feelings. We never completely learned to self-soothe, yet we also learned that others wouldn't soothe us either. There is really no strategy. It's not a nice place to be. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 8:58:08 GMT
laney , it's not useful for you to try to figure out the difference between protest behavior and deactivation in another avoidant if you are involved with one. That's something that is an internal determination for someone working in their own issues and I only mentioned it because I don't identify with it myself. I was differentiating. I myself wouldn't get into a discussion about that unless you want to know for your own internal reactions, I would be happy to unpack that with you specifically. @sherry, i'd like to know this too, if there is a discussion! not just on an intellectual level, but also because I'm dealing with the same/similar issues that i've not yet quite wrapped my head around, and so can't really explicate them here just yet. but in broad strokes, i've been avoidant with some people but also triggered by their avoidance e.g., my mum who was fa then ap then da over my life. initially it made me wonder if i was a FA rather than an AP, but that no longer matters. I'm in general more interested in being able to differentiate behaviors from each other to have a clear sense of where i'm coming from cognitively so that i can better adjust emotionally to the situation/myself. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 12:49:50 GMT
laney , it's not useful for you to try to figure out the difference between protest behavior and deactivation in another avoidant if you are involved with one. That's something that is an internal determination for someone working in their own issues and I only mentioned it because I don't identify with it myself. I was differentiating. I myself wouldn't get into a discussion about that unless you want to know for your own internal reactions, I would be happy to unpack that with you specifically. Yes, I want to know for my own internal reactions and because I am a analytical person, not because I want to try to figure anyone out in this case. The behavior of the avoidant I am involved with is so bizarre that I couldn't post about it here because he might understand that it was about him if he came across these forums, although I would like to understand the weirdness on an intellectual level. This is just news to me that avoidants can even exhibit protest behavior. Maybe it is more of an FA thing? I thought about it yesterday but it is still unclear to me. I do think that I understand the feeling of deactivation. It may be an FA thing, or could just be a DA reverting to an AP strategy. So, if a DA is triggered into a reaction at abandonment they could unconsciously pull out an AP strategy, it's there, just not the organized strategy that is their norm. An AP can trigger situationally into actual deactivation (not to be confused with intentional withholding as protest behavior) without avoidance being their main strategy to cope. An FA , otherwise called disorganized, adopts strategies of avoidance and anxiety, and I understand from listening and reading that the underlying trauma lends all of it a different flavor, because of the strong presence of both strategies. It seems very intense and chaotic. Which of course makes sense given the horrible dilemma of needing care from a caregiver who terrifies you. Anyway, I am also still trying to discern strategies in myself so I understand the underlying belief or trigger in me. We all have a mix of anxious, secure, disorganized, dismissive, in varying degrees. Add to that genetics, environmental factors, unique life situations, hell maybe even zodiac signs and karmic inheritance WHO KNOWS how this all shakes out sometimes hahah. My goal is to just try to let go of figuring out EVERYTHING and focus on what goes on with me internally in the day I'm living in, the moments I experience in interaction with myself and others. Just trying to become more conscious and aware and less habitual and unconscious. Discussions like this really do help. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 12:51:47 GMT
laney , it's not useful for you to try to figure out the difference between protest behavior and deactivation in another avoidant if you are involved with one. That's something that is an internal determination for someone working in their own issues and I only mentioned it because I don't identify with it myself. I was differentiating. I myself wouldn't get into a discussion about that unless you want to know for your own internal reactions, I would be happy to unpack that with you specifically. @sherry, i'd like to know this too, if there is a discussion! not just on an intellectual level, but also because I'm dealing with the same/similar issues that i've not yet quite wrapped my head around, and so can't really explicate them here just yet. but in broad strokes, i've been avoidant with some people but also triggered by their avoidance e.g., my mum who was fa then ap then da over my life. initially it made me wonder if i was a FA rather than an AP, but that no longer matters. I'm in general more interested in being able to differentiate behaviors from each other to have a clear sense of where i'm coming from cognitively so that i can better adjust emotionally to the situation/myself. I totally hear you on this. Your last sentence hit the nail on the head for me. |
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