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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 18:42:36 GMT
cukie in the end, your personal insight into what is operating and influencing your relationships is what matters most, not whether or not we agree. There is no universally applicable "truth" here, as each person brings a personal history and no two relationships are exactly the same in their dynamic and progression. There are general patterns in the AP/avoidant dynamic. it is generally recognized by professionals in the field that both parties are not capable of emotional intimacy without resolving insecure conditioning. One unavailable person moves toward interaction and the other away- but neither an AP or DA is emotionally secure enough for healthy intimacy if they are engaged in the insecure dynamic. Not everyone is the same degree of insecurely attached, either. It may be that the poster I have replied to recognizes her own insecure conditioning that happened long before she chose an avoidant partner. I'm referring to childhood conditioning from an unavailable parent that influences a repeat pattern due to coupling dynamics in the nervous system. If so. then she would benefit most from exploring and resolving her own patterns. My perspective is only mine and I am not seeking to win an argument, but to simply lend a perspective for consideration. I don't have any requirement for anyone to adopt it or align with it. Ultimately whatever someone sees in their own dynamic is up to them to identify- who can know ones own mind better than oneself? The process begins by questioning what thoughts, beliefs, behaviors exist within and seeing if anything could be challenged or adjusted toward greater emotional security and health. That's a personal, individual process. We are all just providing opinions but the real stuff plays out in real life whether or not we agree here. My personal experience, IrL and here on the forum. is that all humans have room to correct their own blind spots regardless of how wrong they might think someone else is, or how easy it is to blame someone else for the failure of a relationship. I see that to be a prevailing reality- when people change for the better themselves, their relationships do too.
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Post by cukie on Dec 19, 2019 19:27:06 GMT
I'm not trying to disagree with you. I'm saying that it all comes in a thousand different varieties, and ultimately its up to the person themselves to determine what is or is not the truth.
Ultimately you're right, it takes two to tango. I'm not trying to attack DA's, I just wanted to point out that sometimes people end up in these situations not because they are attracted to unavailable people or they have some deep underlying emotional issue - just that they were ignorant. That's on them of course to fix.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 19:34:25 GMT
I'm not trying to disagree with you. I'm saying that it all comes in a thousand different varieties, and ultimately its up to the person themselves to determine what is or is not the truth. Ultimately you're right, it takes two to tango. I'm not trying to attack DA's, I just wanted to point out that sometimes people end up in these situations not because they are attracted to unavailable people or they have some deep underlying emotional issue - just that they were ignorant. That's on them of course to fix. Yes I see what you're saying, and I do agree. I like something that I heard from a psychologist I like to learn from. He addressed the idea of idealism, and that part of emotional maturity is to realize and fully understand that there truly is a lot of pain and dysfunction in the world, and we have to have a measure of caution and awareness getting into relationships. Not to be paranoid and fearful, but to be patient to allow situations to unfold without jumping to conclusions, making assumptions, or harboring fantasies about what we would like to happen vs what actually is happening. That's just a process of growth and awareness, and is painful for all of us. There is a prevalence of actual insecurely attached people on the forum though. Many insecures come in blaming an ex, and even shaming them, but eventually shift focus to their own issues ( hopefully not to blame and shame themselves, but to actually develop insight and healing into their own pain that leads them down the wrong road relationally). |
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Post by cukie on Dec 19, 2019 20:00:44 GMT
I'm not trying to disagree with you. I'm saying that it all comes in a thousand different varieties, and ultimately its up to the person themselves to determine what is or is not the truth. Ultimately you're right, it takes two to tango. I'm not trying to attack DA's, I just wanted to point out that sometimes people end up in these situations not because they are attracted to unavailable people or they have some deep underlying emotional issue - just that they were ignorant. That's on them of course to fix. Yes I see what you're saying, and I do agree. I like something that I heard from a psychologist I like to learn from. He addressed the idea of idealism, and that part of emotional maturity is to realize and fully understand that there truly is a lot of pain and dysfunction in the world, and we have to have a measure of caution and awareness getting into relationships. Not to be paranoid and fearful, but to be patient to allow situations to unfold without jumping to conclusions, making assumptions, or harboring fantasies about what we would like to happen vs what actually is happening. That's just a process of growth and awareness, and is painful for all of us. There is a prevalence of actual insecurely attached people on the forum though. Many insecures come in blaming an ex, and even shaming them, but eventually shift focus to their own issues ( hopefully not to blame and shame themselves, but to actually develop insight and healing into their own pain that leads them down the wrong road relationally). Oh I definitely agree with the point on idealism. I think its a very common AP thing to sum the good bits of a relationship and not the bad ones and think to themselves "well if i can just get it back to here things will be good again" but there's also a total failure to acknowledge the DA's needs or pain when doing that. Instead of addressing the pain or dysfunction of a relationship they just wait with the expectation that things will get better and get frustrated when they don't. |
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Post by amber on Dec 19, 2019 20:46:45 GMT
When I first met my ex DA I had no idea he struggled to be vulnerable. I was young and it didn’t become apparent until about two to three years in that this was an issue and it wasn’t until we broke up after six years that I could pin down feeling frustrated that he couldn’t open up. So walking away at the time wasn’t an option as I was oblivious to this issue in some regards. I do believe some vulnerability in relationships is needed and u do have the choice to walk away if someone can’t provide that but I couldn’t even identify what was happening at the time. He had other amazing qualities that I loved that kept me in the r/ship too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 21:25:13 GMT
When I first met my ex DA I had no idea he struggled to be vulnerable. I was young and it didn’t become apparent until about two to three years in that this was an issue and it wasn’t until we broke up after six years that I could pin down feeling frustrated that he couldn’t open up. So walking away at the time wasn’t an option as I was oblivious to this issue in some regards. I do believe some vulnerability in relationships is needed and u do have the choice to walk away if someone can’t provide that but I couldn’t even identify what was happening at the time. He had other amazing qualities that I loved that kept me in the r/ship too. Yeah, unfortunately and unaware DA has not even considered what vulnerability might be, it's not on the menu. For me it wasn't as if I considered it and rejected the notion. It was an unknown concept, to share my insides and ask for something or co-create something. I learned to serve a functional role in relationships. It was what was modeled for me and what was appreciated about me. Think of an arranged marriage - that's the kind of emotional dynamic I can relate to in my closest relationships before awareness. I wasn't trying to deny anyone any satisfaction- I just didn't have what I didn't have to offer. And I didn't have the concept of asking for anything in return. Its only on awareness that I realize it's a struggle. Now I want to connect and confront my own sensitivity to risk in that. My big fear is holding something important to me, sheltering it, and then putting it in the hands of someone else. That has not gone well for me historically. I am realizing that a form of Engulfment that I encountered was being "corrected" and told that what I say I think, is not what I actually think, (according to a parent who knows me better than I know myself, or so they insisted as they projected themselves all over me....) what I say I intend, is not what someone else thinks I intend (and they accused me of hiding my true intentions- feature that! It's comical once you get past the tragedy of it), what means the most to me is not actually important(to them and so should also not be to me) and who I am is not who I "should" be. I haven't been able to connect those dots. But it wasn't only neglect that shaped me, I did get some attention but it tended toward criticism and suppression of me. I guess that could be considered engulfment. I'm going to talk to my therapist more about this next week. So yeah. I learned to hide. I myself am thankful for the inherent wisdom and intelligence in my nervous system, that took cover and I did the best I could. My therapist has validated that in a really beautiful way for me. Now that I am able to distinguish safe, boundaried and emotionally available people, from those not good for me, I am enjoying intimacy and vulnerability in a way I really wish I could have experienced my whole life, especially as a little girl. But I've told people- when I'm enjoying a good meal I don't think about all the times I've felt hunger. I just enjoy with gratitude, and eat. I've had to grieve what I missed out on, but am moving toward a new normal as the grief resolves. I wouldn't stay in any situation that couldn't support the healthier, healing me. And neither should anyone else! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 23:30:50 GMT
Yes I see what you're saying, and I do agree. I like something that I heard from a psychologist I like to learn from. He addressed the idea of idealism, and that part of emotional maturity is to realize and fully understand that there truly is a lot of pain and dysfunction in the world, and we have to have a measure of caution and awareness getting into relationships. Not to be paranoid and fearful, but to be patient to allow situations to unfold without jumping to conclusions, making assumptions, or harboring fantasies about what we would like to happen vs what actually is happening. That's just a process of growth and awareness, and is painful for all of us. There is a prevalence of actual insecurely attached people on the forum though. Many insecures come in blaming an ex, and even shaming them, but eventually shift focus to their own issues ( hopefully not to blame and shame themselves, but to actually develop insight and healing into their own pain that leads them down the wrong road relationally). Oh I definitely agree with the point on idealism. I think its a very common AP thing to sum the good bits of a relationship and not the bad ones and think to themselves "well if i can just get it back to here things will be good again" but there's also a total failure to acknowledge the DA's needs or pain when doing that. Instead of addressing the pain or dysfunction of a relationship they just wait with the expectation that things will get better and get frustrated when they don't. Yes, exactly. And this is a pattern within the AP, both sides have things to address to become emotionally available to the other. I think the biggest misconception is that all that longing and hoping equates to emotional availability. It doesn't. It equates to longing and hoping. Emotional availability requires the capacity to see someone as they are and engage in that reality without idealism and unrealistic expectations attached. Someone who has an attachment wound that has them longing for the unavailable has a need for a relationship to materialize m in the way that it didn't during their early conditioning. Seeking love from an unavailable source isnt emotional availability- it's pattern. Huge difference. |
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Post by amber on Dec 20, 2019 2:56:13 GMT
Cukie this is exactly what I needed to hear...I’m a month post break with ex FA and having very strong and overwhelming feelings of hope and longing.. thinking somehow I can make it work with him, hoping he will come back to me, pining etc. my mother was extremely hot and cold and would go silent on me for days on end and it was always up to me to rectify things so I think I have a strong pattern of needing to “fix,win,secure” love in that way. My belief is that love doesn’t just come to you, you have to earn it. And that I totally get into a fantasy and illusion about my ex and forget all the things that weren’t working 😢
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Post by amber on Dec 20, 2019 3:02:21 GMT
And inmourning thanks so much for your insight! It’s so great to get inside the mind of someone who has Da style...very enlightening. I get my ex DA had needs that were so shoved down he didn’t even know they existed...I see my recent ex too who was simply unable to express feelings and needs did so because it wasn’t ever safe to do it as a child; therefore there is mortal fear around this. I can related as I used to be this way after having BPD mother, but have spent years and years practicing expressing myself with very safe people. I had to tell my flat mate the other night that I was being kept awake by her boyfriend when he stayed over, and that alone was enough to send me into total fear and panic, to the point where I almost convince myself it’s not worth saying it/pretend it isn’t an issue. So I relate
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 3:11:40 GMT
Cukie this is exactly what I needed to hear...I’m a month post break with ex FA and having very strong and overwhelming feelings of hope and longing.. thinking somehow I can make it work with him, hoping he will come back to me, pining etc. my mother was extremely hot and cold and would go silent on me for days on end and it was always up to me to rectify things so I think I have a strong pattern of needing to “fix,win,secure” love in that way. My belief is that love doesn’t just come to you, you have to earn it. And that I totally get into a fantasy and illusion about my ex and forget all the things that weren’t working 😢 Your pattern makes total sense- your hope and longing does too, considering the conditioning you experienced. It's been really helpful to me, to understand how I created the same dynamics in my relationships with dysfunctional partners. I've actually been engulfed and also neglected, different aspects of my parental relationships, different versions of my mom and dad actually. Awareness is so sobering but also- liberating. It doesn't make it a walk in the park to over come it, but it takes out some of the mystery and bewilderment and hopelessness. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 3:18:37 GMT
And inmourning thanks so much for your insight! It’s so great to get inside the mind of someone who has Da style...very enlightening. I get my ex DA had needs that were so shoved down he didn’t even know they existed...I see my recent ex too who was simply unable to express feelings and needs did so because it wasn’t ever safe to do it as a child; therefore there is mortal fear around this. I can related as I used to be this way after having BPD mother, but have spent years and years practicing expressing myself with very safe people. I had to tell my flat mate the other night that I was being kept awake by her boyfriend when he stayed over, and that alone was enough to send me into total fear and panic, to the point where I almost convince myself it’s not worth saying it/pretend it isn’t an issue. So I relate We all are really much more alike than we realize. I wrote it another place, that there are many similarities with opposite expressions. Some of us move toward engagement and some away- but all with similar difficulties in: Knowing our needs Taking then seriously Undersranding what healthy looks like communicating trusting being authentic being emotionally mature and available. Different manifestations of abandonment wounding. Different outcomes and different perspectives, different paths to wholeness and healing. Some elements are the same. But how we get to where we need to be looks different, between anxious and avoidant. We all need what we don't know how to receive; what we don't know how to create , what we don't know how to provide. Until we learn about all this and grow into more secure relating- it's possible for all of us. |
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Post by amber on Dec 20, 2019 4:39:37 GMT
I agree it’s just different manifestations coming from the same wounding. I always thought I was emotionally available until my breakup and coming to this forum...realising I’m not and that’s why I attract unavailable men. My ex told me about 5 months in he wasn’t sure how much he could open in R/ship or how far/deep he could go...he said this again a few months later. I think unconsciously I saw this as a challenge...”I’ll find a way to open you up!” I’ll be the first woman who can do this with my undying love and care etc. which I realise is a pattern with my mum...i found very clever strategies to get her to open back up to me when she shut down, so I have this magical belief I can do in r/ships...and when I do win the love it’s almost like I’ve won the lotto
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 4:44:45 GMT
I've been thinking about something that seems to confuse non-DAs on the boards a lot... the concept that DA have "high self-esteem." And trying to reconcile that idea, because none of the insecure styles have a solid and healthy relationship to self and others. I think that ex-partners of DAs can even use this concept, which is present in some attachment style writings from various sources, to vilify their ex-partner -- the DA never cared about me, just shut down and walked away, wish I could do the same. So posing the question to any DAs still lurking... do you think it's not necessarily having "high self-esteem," but it's simply not looking to others or to relationships for validation? I think FAs avoid and then come back because they (like APs) crave validation from others as they have trouble self-regulating their emotions. And DAs don't do that because they were neglected earlier in life and never received external validation, so they don't seek it out. They try to find validation in other ways, but it appears to a more anxious and trusts-others-more-than-self insecure person as "high self esteem" allowing them to shut down and bail without a second thought (which isn't actually true, even if deactivation can look that way). You know, I ran across something today that may shed light on this. The author points to different formulas that create avoidance. One is that the avoidant received a lot of criticism and therefore fears intimacy because of the fear that if someone gets close, they will find fault. Another is helicopter parenting where the avoidant was swallowed by the agenda of the parent- my words as I can't remember quite how that was put. Yet another is an avoidant was neglected simply because the parent was embroiled in their own dysfunction- addiction or DV or something- so the child was bulldozed by the parents own needs. So, with different routes to avoidance, there may be differences in how an avoidant perceives themselves based on the conditioning. I'd say that any neglect or abuse would cause esteem issues- but to vastly different degrees depending on many factors. We see variance in individuals of all the attachment styles, I've seen different "flavors" of general patterns, in anxious types as well. There are so many ratios possible of AP/FA/DA/Secure as well! A spectrum of endless combos. So any general statement can have caveats. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 4:45:37 GMT
Oh BTW I alexandra I posted the article in the general section: Engulfment and Abandonment Fears. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 4:48:27 GMT
I agree it’s just different manifestations coming from the same wounding. I always thought I was emotionally available until my breakup and coming to this forum...realising I’m not and that’s why I attract unavailable men. My ex told me about 5 months in he wasn’t sure how much he could open in R/ship or how far/deep he could go...he said this again a few months later. I think unconsciously I saw this as a challenge...”I’ll find a way to open you up!” I’ll be the first woman who can do this with my undying love and care etc. which I realise is a pattern with my mum...i found very clever strategies to get her to open back up to me when she shut down, so I have this magical belief I can do in r/ships...and when I do win the love it’s almost like I’ve won the lotto You were totally put in a position to have to find the magic formula for getting love. I think for many of us, the signal that someone is unhealthy and matches our pattern becomes a mysterious appeal- until *mystery solved* that chemistry is poison to us! That's my mom! Or , that's my Dad! Nooooooooooo!!!! It's important to note that unaware avoidants pick their parents too. So, they are in pattern with unavailable people, just like good old mom and dad. Controlling, or immersed in their own needs and unavailable.... yes and yes. In some form or fashion. Somehow, it's familiar. |
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