Thoughts on DA "high self esteem"?

I'm no psychology major but as a diagnosed DA I'll take a stab at this.
There are several factors relating to this, in the DA setup.

1) One person psychological system. This is discussed a little bit in the Healing DA thread in the general forum. This can be seen as a strength or a liability depending on who is judging it. As an individual with a one person psychological system, based in survival, a DA will not be looking to others for validation and will turn to the self for a value system and encouragement and support. This is about survival not self destruction, and can be a tremendous asset in what might be described as a cruel world from the perspective of an insecure. The ability to cope with oneself, by oneself, is a source of strength and resilience in an unsafe world, and is a source of self esteem. It may be maladaptive at a certain level but it has value. If one is able to adapt, press on, and save themselves (in one's perspective) one becomes a valuable ally to oneself and therefore, somewhat esteemed. We all appreciate the one who has our back, and for a DA, it's us.

2) The avoidance of relationship often gives birth to the pursuit of accomplishment, or skills, or interests. Except in the case of extreme spectrum stuff, narcissism, this can lend itself to a raised appreciation of self as well. Often a DA can point to their pursuits as a source of pride, feeling good about their contribution to the world in spite of an ability to truly connect with it. Many of us find our security in a relationship with nature or spirituality, and a deep attunement to either encourages a sense of worth if it is a secure connection. Some of us, I don't have any idea if all, or most, or few, do have a secure relationship with nature or even animals. My therapist identified that in me before I could. And it's true. I feel supported and valued by nature. I feel very integrated with it, just by observing the reality of my true dependence on it and the way it always delivers- the sun, rain, the air I breathe, all of it truly, in a very real sense, sustains me. This makes me feel good. I don't feel completely abandoned, or worthless, nature doesn't discriminate. There are reasons that the earth is called Mother, nature is called Mother, because there is a nurturing quality there. Nurture=self esteem, coming from self, others, or the universe itself.

Does this make sense?

3) Blunting of negative emotions in the less aware. Threats are minimized, pain is minimized, by actual physiological dissociation from them. There is a lack of rumination involving self blame and whatnot as occurs in an anxious individual. I'm not saying on some level anxiety is not present,, but does not tend to involve and anxious loop of self-shaming and belittled thinking. A DA is wired to cope with abandonment on the conscious level. A narrative of "I am worthless, I am shameful, I am less than and I am defective" is not a good launch for independence. This is about a conscious narrative that enables emotional survival. So while I may suck at relationships, I keep myself afloat by endorsing in myself my strengths and capacities otherwise.

4) Every individual varies and a blanket statement about such a topic is misleading. There are levels of awareness, spectrums of avoidance, and many contributing factors including genetics, to a personality. Some personalities have lower self esteem than others, beyond the influence of attachment.

5) The emphasis on rational thought and reasoning vs. emotional thinking. While an anxiously inclined insecure individual will go overboard on negative rumination, a dismissive individual is naturally inclined to dismiss concerns, even concerns about their self worth. So if I perceive, I am not likeable (have felt that before) what shall I do? Not be around people much, and since my sense of self is not so much tied consciously to relationships, I can be not likeable but still worthy of a place here.

In short, a dismissive must find the ability to sustain him or herself with or without the acceptance of others, and on some level, that entails and acceptance of self even if self is flawed.

I'm not saying this is all true self worth, self esteem, etc, how can we discern it for an individual? The concept of self esteem might be somewhat subjective, and viewed very differently by the various types, such that it's like speaking different languages. I cannot fathom how rejected AP's feel worthless, it simply boggles my mind. When I have read about people who had their self esteem obliterated by poor treatment from others, I cannot relate, and it also frustrates me to see it. My esteem of an individual is obliterated if they are harmful to me. I have endured poor treatment to a great extent but found egregious behavior on the part of the perpetrator to mean that the perpetrator was bad, not me. Im sure I've internalized poor treatment on an unconscious level, but consciously, to survive is to put it behind and pull myself up and go on. I guess it's just part of that one person psychological system?

I've always, in adult life, felt that I had to encourage myself and find courage to succeed in spite of rejection and hardship and that is nearly impossible for me if I don't have positive self talk. Not to say I've never hated myself or gone through depressive episodes- I would say in my teens I did. But it's not a default that I can remember other than in that period of my life. It was a horrible period when I experienced a ton of rejection from both parents, at that developmental stage- but maybe it drove me further into avoidance. I haven't explored it enough to know but I did express to my therapist recently, that I remember feeling a collapse in myself at that time. I wanted to die. I felt there was no purpose for me. I drank, I did drugs, I isolated. But I pulled out of all that with some support and haven't felt that way since. Is it self esteem, or an unwillingness to destroy myself, are those things related? I think they are. For me they are at least.

Maybe an expert would tear this all apart, I don't know. Self esteem is so often defined by acceptance by others. Yes, DA want acceptance but don't expect it. So defining the value of self isn't consciously related to whether or not someone else values me. I think if it were, my capacity to survive physical and emotional neglect would have been severely impacted.

On an unconscious level, things can be very different. I've read and experienced about the sense of mortal fear that we have. That isn't rooted in a sense of safety, and I would think true, secure self esteem must be rooted in a sense of safety.

I don't know if I've provided clarity or muddied the waters. But these are my thoughts about it.

What is the difference between selfesteem and selfworth in english ?

To me self-worth is that you are unique and worthy just because you are born.

Self esteem is what you do / what you accomplish.

Because avoidants often have closed of from feeling their body and their feelings, they can't really know if they have low self-worth or not.

Self-worth comes from being seen, heard, and understood as a baby/as a child for who you are, not for what you do.

Maybe I do not understand the question.

About regulation:
As a baby, co regulation is learned first in a secure raised child. (Eye gaze, voice, touch with the caregiver)
Then afterwards the child learns how to self-regulate.

Avoidants often auto regulate. They autoregulate
by numming out and close off from their feelings and their body and by staying up in their head. This can give them a tension around the head and can give them headace.

They do not see any purpose in reaching out. They have been used to not depending on anyone. Nobody was there in their childhood.

It often takes longer time for an avoidant to get involved and attatched. 

Often because they do not feel their feelings and their body (closed off from their neck and down) it can be easier for them to detach, numb out and walk away. They go/stay up in their head and use the logical part of their brain,. They closes off feelings, needs ect.

But it is on a spectrum - and there are two types of avoidants. As there are two types of ambivalent attatchmentstyles.

On the other hand,
The ap and the fa/desorganised attatched often can feel their emotions/feelings ( can get overwhelmed by their own feelings. Unless the fa have dissociated). They get emotional involved and attatched,
in the relationship more than the avoidant.
Therefore it can be more difficult for them to be left/leave a relationship and it can take longer time for them to process the brakeup. Also for them to calm down their signalcry.

And then there is also the difference in the signal cry that can be turned too much on or too much off ect.

I agree with the definitions of self worth and self esteem, one is unconditional and one is conditional. And, if one truly has self worth simply on the merit of being born, then they also would have a health sense of other's worth, because they are born. Such a person would not need to villify an entire attachment style, simply based on their subjective experience of them, or because of the accounts of other insecurely attached experiences.

In fact, I would think that healthy self worth entails empathy, particularly for a non-pathological attachment style. It is noted by experts in the fields of psychology and neurobiology that dismissive attachment is not a pathology. It's an insecure adaptation not on the spectrum of personality disorder although personality disordered individuals have various insecure attachment styles.

So, it makes reasonable sense to me that a need to consistently create a parallel between pathological behavior and DA attachment style indicates an unresolved insecure wound, or ignorance. That's just me and some may disagree.

As to your original post alexandra , don't forget that when DA deactivate and exit, their attachment system is tuned way down or off, and it may have little to do with self esteem and much to do with a muted attachment system. Conversely, if their ex is anxious, their attachment system is too far on, and they will be in protest behavior of some sort which may include angry blaming. It's all part of the various attachment packages.

One thing I have noticed is that triggered AP's tend to express that they feel out of control of their thoughts and behaviors, the attachment reactions are visceral and very difficult for them to manage. However, the attachment reaction of their avoidant counterparts seems to be deemed as deliberate, malicious, within the realm of conscious control of the affected avoidant. There are cognitions which accompany both ends of the attachment spectrum reactions, but time and time again we see science proving that these patterns are instinctive and based in the nervous system, beyond conscious control without skillful intervention. Anxious and avoidant, and also disorganized reactions are said to be hard wired and not fully understood or within conscious control while being experienced by the affected individual.

It's hard for an anxious to imagine that an avoidant is not malicious, but also it is difficult for an avoidant in a situation to imagine that the anxious is not malicious. The difference, is that the attachment wounding compels opposite reactions. To my knowledge, DA did not consciously choose as children to become avoidantly attached, nor did AP or FA consciously choose their attachment styles and dilemmas.

Those who want to understand and accept this will, and will not need to connect the attachment styles to personality disorders when describing what they believe to be the motivations of insecurely attached individuals. Those involved with personality disordered individuals, if they know it, ought to be able to use common sense and an abundance of research available to understand the differences.

Anyway, the information is all out there, but hurt and confusion get into the mix and create a lot of discrimination.

I believe in terms of nervous system activation/deactivation, the differences are important to grasp as well. Fight/Flight energy is motivated, Freeze is frozen, collapse is hopeless. And, anyone who has not experienced actual deactivation of their attachment system, cannot imagine how difficult it is to try to repair or be interested in any kind of approach in that state. They simply don't have the experience to understand or empathize with it. It's very subdued, attachment is missing or very changed, confusion may be present and there is a sense of resignation. These are all feeling states that are very impactful to communication. An anxious person feels and INCREASE of the attachment feelings and motivations, perhaps inappropriately so. Of course they will be dismayed by an avoidant's inability or unwillingness to repair, but it doesn't imply a moral high ground as sometimes seems to be the tone of some posts. It's attachment. Active or inactive.

Misunderstandings happen but in reality, the answers don't lie in blame either way.

<It's hard for an anxious to imagine that an avoidant is not malicious, but also it is difficult for an avoidant in a situation to imagine that the anxious is not malicious.

Those who want to understand and accept this will, and will not need to connect the attachment styles to personality disorders when describing what they believe to be the motivations of insecurely attached individuals.>

I really like what you said here. In my previous relationship, I did wonder if my ex was a narc - there were a lot of similarities and I couldn’t tell if exactly what it was. Then I started asking if I was narc MYSELF because then I also started seeing the similarities there. It was very confusing, not because I didn’t do the research, but I think there was a lack of understanding and experience with true personality disorders coupled with a lack of an ability to differentiate nuances, to truly and objectively assess the research. It was not for a lack of understanding that nobody chose their attachment styles (this didn’t even come up in my mind really), but I think a lack of understanding of what “normal and healthy” looks like that perpetuates this question - this is also a question that a lot of newcomers to the forum have, and clearly there’s a pattern In the evolution of understanding of these issues over time that is correlated to their own healing towards secure.