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Post by stu on Oct 27, 2019 22:41:03 GMT
I agree that based on other posts of caro 's it sounds like he has previously admitted that he's scared etc. I was trying to refer to the possibility that @inmourning brought up, that there could be other explanations for his behavior aside from him just feeling super scared and triggered, and was trying to say I don't think the cause of his behavior really matters that much, if someone doesn't want to get together in person and can't even talk about it, regardless of the reason, moving on is the best approach in my opinion. I wouldn't use the term "seeing" when they barely text and almost never see each other. Understanding someone struggles with connection and intimacy doesn't mean that you can make them into a suitable partner. I don't want a partner who struggles with connection and intimacy so greatly that they can't even get together with me in person, and it doesn't sound like that is what caroline is looking for either–correct me if I'm wrong caro Again, well said. And I agree completely that the why doesn't matter so much- but don't assume what you don't really know. There are other interpretations to this behavior that can be pretty painful. But the behavior itself is painful and unacceptable, and in my opinion shows NO regard for Caroline. Like you said, cherry picking what texts to respond to, ghosting.... after a simple I miss you? That, actually, seems cruel to me. I can't say it's done intentionally to be cruel... but what a load of crap that a simple bid and expressed affection is met with silence, and Caroline wondering how she might have messed that up. It's just not good, not good at all. It would not be good for anyone. It doesn't feel good to have your emotional bids ignored like that and I see where you are coming from with all of that. However de activation is just what you have to deal with sometimes when an acoidant isn't quite to the place where they can handle consistent communication without no contact de activations either. So if you are dealing with someone who is in that position, you have to meet them where they are and understand that it's nothing to do with you personally. In her situation for example I would think it would be best to just move on and let things go and then if the other person reached out in the futute and initiated a meet up with geniune effort because they valued her a lot. Then they could meet. She could say what she needs to say and they could figure out what things could be from there, or not. |
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Post by mrob on Oct 27, 2019 22:55:04 GMT
tnr9 I was thinking of you as I posted that, and the opportunity to look at myself through others eyes. So, that is something that has changed for me.
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 27, 2019 22:55:39 GMT
I think the only way an FA person can feel comfortable bringing up difficult subjects is when they are purposely making an effort to communicate more directly and there is a demonstrated history of difficult subjects being discussed between the two people without anything particularly bad happening. FAs don't prefer to bring up tough stuff ourselves, our nature is to avoid, and to fear confrontation/conflict. Bringing the thing up when the FA person is extremely triggered isn't going to get good results. But I don't think letting it go too long works either, as the longer it goes the more nerve-wracking it can get in some cases. This makes total sense — to wait until they reach out and are more open to discussing. Although how do you know when you're letting it go for too long? In the latest in my situation, my FA went MIA for basically a month with a couple of words of acknowledgement of my apology — as I've wrote about here. This is all after a bumpy couple of months, him having a lot of personal things going on, etc. Then when he returned from out of town at beginning of month, texted several different times saying I was a wonderful person and he's attracted to me, etc. It was very minimal back and forth, I kept it light and kind but showing interest, and he seemed to be feeling out if I was still interested. I guess I got too bold because ~10 days ago, in a very cute, friendly, complimentary, light way ask him if we could skip to the part where we'd hang out in-person, and I said that I've missed him. I knew it would have taken him several days to respond to that as it was very direct and more intense, but I didn't think it would cause him to deactivate or pull away for this long. I get now it was probably too much pressure given everything he has going on, but I said it because I feel like texting only these past couple of months (us both being out of town a lot) has only led to things being translated wrong, and I wanted to be able to have some quality time (and to talk— which I didn't mention). And I get the I've missed you part was probably too much, but it's how I felt... I was trying to be true to myself too. Anyway, since there's been no response from him for ~10 days, but he's viewed all of my IG stories. I'm trying to just focus on me, move forward, and if he comes around then have a conversation if he's willing to talk— but it feels so weird not saying anything. It's also confusing, like why did he come back and say all of those very forward / direct things only to disappear again? I mean, I get it, it's too much pressure and too much intimacy, he felt engulfed, etc, but it just seems like he wouldn't have even made that move. My therapist — who is well versed in attachment theory — says to wait until he's not triggered and is less scared — and if I really want I can send a simple "how are you?" in a bit. Anyway, that's my update and battle with trying to wait until they're untriggered. Also, mrob, sooooooo appreciate you and all of your amazing feedback, insight, and willingness to open up. I agree with the others, FAs may be hard work, but when you've found someone really special to you, it's worth it to try. It's so great to see your progress on these boards, and thanks for constantly putting up with our stories and questions! You're so valued. - I don’t think you overstepped at all by saying you missed him or wanted to see him. You do need to be true to yourself, as you said, and I think that direct communication delivered lightly to an avoidant is the best way to go. Sometimes I add humor if he says that he’ll “probably” be able to see me tomorrow- he’ll see how his day goes. I’ve responded- no matter how your day goes it’ll be better if you see me! He then laughs and agrees. Light and short works well with him. He shuts down from conflict or pushing for more, but avoidants generally like words of affirmation, it’s usually their love language, and I tell my DA I miss him. I’ll even go as far as to say “Do you miss me?” He always responds positively when I ask. I think sometimes they need some gentle prompting. Of course we were in a relationship where we used to say I love you daily so saying I miss you is a step down from that. My DA, and maybe your FA, is admittedly bad when it comes to relationships so good modeling of healthy communication can begin to set a more healthy pattern between the two of you. I think it’s very important to be gentle but to NOT WALK ON EGGSHELLS. You must communicate your needs or resentment will grow and you’ll eventually explode or walk. Be consistent, gentle and patient but be true to yourself. It sounds typical FA that he said flirty things to you and then disappeared. My DA opens up when he wants (always in person, not texting), but may have nothing to contribute or even withdraw if I bring up a heavier topic. The avoidant sets the pace here. They say things on their time table when they are ready and no amount of pressure can push them along- it will only shut them down. I’m not saying you pressured him- you did everything kind and gentle. It’s just a matter of communicating w a guy who is emotionally unavailable and fearful. Keep trying if you feel he’s worth it. But don’t blame yourself - and I agree w others that setting a time limit for this kind of back and forth relationship is a good idea. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 27, 2019 23:03:27 GMT
caro those are words I find really hard. I conditioned myself to not miss people, so it can seem like an obligation, and a step towards engulfment. serenity The beige loving concept is problematic as well, though. I was with someone recently who ticked most of the boxes, but (I think) is secure leaning a little towards anxious. Very stable. She just wasn’t exciting enough. I’m naturally attracted to crazy people. I find them exciting! So, I have to really watch that one. - Can you begin to challenge your narrative here and view someone saying “I miss you” as a compliment? Not a threat or a bid for anything from you, simply an expression of their appreciation for you as a person? |
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Post by serenity on Oct 28, 2019 6:41:46 GMT
I liked what Teal Swan says about caring behaviours in her videos. Secure caring behaviour is internalising your partners wellbeing as equal to your own. AP behaviour is internalising your partners wellbeing as more important than yours, and dissmissive avoidant behaviour is not internalising your partners wellbeing at all, or considering it beneath your own.
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 28, 2019 12:06:37 GMT
I agree that based on other posts of caro 's it sounds like he has previously admitted that he's scared etc. I was trying to refer to the possibility that @inmourning brought up, that there could be other explanations for his behavior aside from him just feeling super scared and triggered, and was trying to say I don't think the cause of his behavior really matters that much, if someone doesn't want to get together in person and can't even talk about it, regardless of the reason, moving on is the best approach in my opinion. I wouldn't use the term "seeing" when they barely text and almost never see each other. Understanding someone struggles with connection and intimacy doesn't mean that you can make them into a suitable partner. I don't want a partner who struggles with connection and intimacy so greatly that they can't even get together with me in person, and it doesn't sound like that is what caroline is looking for either–correct me if I'm wrong caro He's admitted he's avoidant (not in terms of attachment just in general), that he's scared, not experienced in dating, intimidated by me, and has asked multiple times why I deal with him / would want to deal with someone like him (all screaming with his negative self talk, which he's admitted he's hated himself, etc). He's also always apologized for things, including his distance (outside of this time period of course), and he's acknowledged that I know him / thanking me / etc... so I think to some degree, sometimes at least, he's aware of his actions and does feel regret/guilt about them. I'm fully aware there could be other explanations for his behavior... and I agree, it doesn't totally matter if we can't even get together and talk about it. It also doesn't matter of our connection, my understanding, level of empathy, etc... if he's not willing to even talk to me. Like nyc718 has said (and I agree and am in a similar boat as most of her recent posts): "Well I will not lie and say that fear of loss has not been a motivation for me to stay and try to work things out, but as in many things, it's sometimes a process to walk away from something you want so badly. I have been through loss before, and it is a process for me to accept that this may also end in a loss. But it is what it is and I am doing my best."and "Do I wish he was someone more capable of handling a normal, adult relationship? Of course. Am I afraid of losing him? Yes. I am not ashamed to admit that. Am I working on trying to figure out how to maximize our relationship, knowing he has this personality type? Yes. Do I know that it may not ultimately work out in the end? Very much yes." I'll fully admit I'm not quite there to move on — but am trying to get myself there all while working on myself too. It's especially hard since he did recently reach out so direct then pull away again. To answer the tipsy question— especially since things with him have blown up (internally/depression/anxiety/meds/etc), he's had an even harder time expressing "deeper" things when he's totally sober. Sometimes in August it felt like he even needed a little liquid courage to talk to me. And it's never like disrespectful or sex-focused things... it's more like "thank you for understanding me" etc. During our early months, the one time he had a direct flood of release of feelings for me said outloud, that was the most intoxicated I'd ever seen him. I'm not wording things well tonight, but basically in sum — he's more open when he's been drinking. I'm mostly just feeling sad right now, and I'm trying not to take it personal. I know he has a lot going on, that I've been really kind, patient, and understanding to him, I don't have bad intentions, etc. Regardless of what is causing things, etc, etc, I'm just sad and I wish we could just talk. When I look back, it seems he started deactivating at middle/end of May (which would've been at the end of the 4th month on consistent/good period, which is pretty spot on for FA patterns of after 3rd month from what I've read). And he fought it and now it's just too much. Paired with him going through a ton of stuff and despite me being there, supportive, etc, it's just too much to have someone know so much / be so close. But like I said, it doesn't much matter right now. It's so helpful to learn about other attachment types in addition to my own, and I do think it's important (if you want) to try to understand areas of human life you don't already and take measures (not eggshells) to communicate best with others you love in a non-threatening style. As I appreciate when people do that with me, and I know some people's style I just can't even handle (aka my mom) and it hurts too much... and some people don't even care (or have the capacity) to try. That's not what I need, and I doubt that's what FAs need neither. Again, not eggshells, but just ways to communicate that are non-threatening, etc. Now all I can do is take care of myself, work on myself, try to move on, etc. Thanks everyone for your input, advice, etc. It is helpful! And def have been thinking about the deadline thing. Thank you caroline What I would love to see more of around here is more support for the PROCESS that it takes to untangle ourselves from the relationships we are trying to figure out our ways from. I see a lot of projected anger towards some of us who aren't in that place yet of completely checking out of a relationship to just GO AHEAD AND PULL THE PLUG ALREADY. Why? Wasn't it a process for you too? Didn't you have to also have to get to that place, wherever it was, before you decided once and for all to end it and not look back? Obviously the relationships we leave behind here share so many similarities of dysfunction, otherwise we wouldn't be here, but we are all still individuals, as are the people we are with, so things may not go EXACTLY the way they went down with your situation. Can you just have some compassion for some of us who are taking the step by steps that we need to take to extricate ourselves from the relationship? We're dealing with enough, we don't need the pile on, especially here, a place where we are all seeking support in one way or another towards peace from otherwise turbulent relationships. I feel like everyone here should understand how difficult it can be to leave a relationship, even one that's not good for us anymore. We are not just leaving the bad parts of the relationship, we are leaving the great parts of the relationship, THAT is the part that hurts, not leaving the bad parts. If there wasn't ANY GOOD in a relationship then it would be easy to leave, but that's not how it is, is it? Humans are complex, therefore, relationships are too. If we were robots with no complex emotions then I suppose life would be so easy, but we aren't robots. so we don't operate like robots. Please stop telling us to operate that way. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 16:16:05 GMT
He's admitted he's avoidant (not in terms of attachment just in general), that he's scared, not experienced in dating, intimidated by me, and has asked multiple times why I deal with him / would want to deal with someone like him (all screaming with his negative self talk, which he's admitted he's hated himself, etc). He's also always apologized for things, including his distance (outside of this time period of course), and he's acknowledged that I know him / thanking me / etc... so I think to some degree, sometimes at least, he's aware of his actions and does feel regret/guilt about them. I'm fully aware there could be other explanations for his behavior... and I agree, it doesn't totally matter if we can't even get together and talk about it. It also doesn't matter of our connection, my understanding, level of empathy, etc... if he's not willing to even talk to me. Like nyc718 has said (and I agree and am in a similar boat as most of her recent posts): "Well I will not lie and say that fear of loss has not been a motivation for me to stay and try to work things out, but as in many things, it's sometimes a process to walk away from something you want so badly. I have been through loss before, and it is a process for me to accept that this may also end in a loss. But it is what it is and I am doing my best."and "Do I wish he was someone more capable of handling a normal, adult relationship? Of course. Am I afraid of losing him? Yes. I am not ashamed to admit that. Am I working on trying to figure out how to maximize our relationship, knowing he has this personality type? Yes. Do I know that it may not ultimately work out in the end? Very much yes." I'll fully admit I'm not quite there to move on — but am trying to get myself there all while working on myself too. It's especially hard since he did recently reach out so direct then pull away again. To answer the tipsy question— especially since things with him have blown up (internally/depression/anxiety/meds/etc), he's had an even harder time expressing "deeper" things when he's totally sober. Sometimes in August it felt like he even needed a little liquid courage to talk to me. And it's never like disrespectful or sex-focused things... it's more like "thank you for understanding me" etc. During our early months, the one time he had a direct flood of release of feelings for me said outloud, that was the most intoxicated I'd ever seen him. I'm not wording things well tonight, but basically in sum — he's more open when he's been drinking. I'm mostly just feeling sad right now, and I'm trying not to take it personal. I know he has a lot going on, that I've been really kind, patient, and understanding to him, I don't have bad intentions, etc. Regardless of what is causing things, etc, etc, I'm just sad and I wish we could just talk. When I look back, it seems he started deactivating at middle/end of May (which would've been at the end of the 4th month on consistent/good period, which is pretty spot on for FA patterns of after 3rd month from what I've read). And he fought it and now it's just too much. Paired with him going through a ton of stuff and despite me being there, supportive, etc, it's just too much to have someone know so much / be so close. But like I said, it doesn't much matter right now. It's so helpful to learn about other attachment types in addition to my own, and I do think it's important (if you want) to try to understand areas of human life you don't already and take measures (not eggshells) to communicate best with others you love in a non-threatening style. As I appreciate when people do that with me, and I know some people's style I just can't even handle (aka my mom) and it hurts too much... and some people don't even care (or have the capacity) to try. That's not what I need, and I doubt that's what FAs need neither. Again, not eggshells, but just ways to communicate that are non-threatening, etc. Now all I can do is take care of myself, work on myself, try to move on, etc. Thanks everyone for your input, advice, etc. It is helpful! And def have been thinking about the deadline thing. Thank you caroline What I would love to see more of around here is more support for the PROCESS that it takes to untangle ourselves from the relationships we are trying to figure out our ways from. I see a lot of projected anger towards some of us who aren't in that place yet of completely checking out of a relationship to just GO AHEAD AND PULL THE PLUG ALREADY. Why? Wasn't it a process for you too? Didn't you have to also have to get to that place, wherever it was, before you decided once and for all to end it and not look back? Obviously the relationships we leave behind here share so many similarities of dysfunction, otherwise we wouldn't be here, but we are all still individuals, as are the people we are with, so things may not go EXACTLY the way they went down with your situation. Can you just have some compassion for some of us who are taking the step by steps that we need to take to extricate ourselves from the relationship? We're dealing with enough, we don't need the pile on, especially here, a place where we are all seeking support in one way or another towards peace from otherwise turbulent relationships. I feel like everyone here should understand how difficult it can be to leave a relationship, even one that's not good for us anymore. We are not just leaving the bad parts of the relationship, we are leaving the great parts of the relationship, THAT is the part that hurts, not leaving the bad parts. If there wasn't ANY GOOD in a relationship then it would be easy to leave, but that's not how it is, is it? Humans are complex, therefore, relationships are too. If we were robots with no complex emotions then I suppose life would be so easy, but we aren't robots. so we don't operate like robots. Please stop telling us to operate that way. I haven't read what seems like anger directed at either of you. And, I've seen a lot of people describe their own experiences. I think it's reasonable to see everyone here as human that have gone through processes, and many have shared them or referenced accounts of processes in their postings all over the board. Ive seen most people be quite open about the difficulty of leaving a relationship, and that it has typically had to get quite painful in order to make the changes needed to become healthier. Lots of posters here have been able to make a clean break after a long painful process, and have shared that on your threads and throughout the board. I don't see it as being anyone's intention to invalidate your process, but if you need a specific kind of support you could definitely post more specifically in a support forum and set out what you're looking for from the beginning. There is a lot of hard won wisdom, strength and experience here that could meet you where you're at, but in the open forums people are discussing things they have to say about the topics, and utilizing the forum in a general way. |
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 28, 2019 18:23:35 GMT
Thank you caroline What I would love to see more of around here is more support for the PROCESS that it takes to untangle ourselves from the relationships we are trying to figure out our ways from. I see a lot of projected anger towards some of us who aren't in that place yet of completely checking out of a relationship to just GO AHEAD AND PULL THE PLUG ALREADY. Why? Wasn't it a process for you too? Didn't you have to also have to get to that place, wherever it was, before you decided once and for all to end it and not look back? Obviously the relationships we leave behind here share so many similarities of dysfunction, otherwise we wouldn't be here, but we are all still individuals, as are the people we are with, so things may not go EXACTLY the way they went down with your situation. Can you just have some compassion for some of us who are taking the step by steps that we need to take to extricate ourselves from the relationship? We're dealing with enough, we don't need the pile on, especially here, a place where we are all seeking support in one way or another towards peace from otherwise turbulent relationships. I feel like everyone here should understand how difficult it can be to leave a relationship, even one that's not good for us anymore. We are not just leaving the bad parts of the relationship, we are leaving the great parts of the relationship, THAT is the part that hurts, not leaving the bad parts. If there wasn't ANY GOOD in a relationship then it would be easy to leave, but that's not how it is, is it? Humans are complex, therefore, relationships are too. If we were robots with no complex emotions then I suppose life would be so easy, but we aren't robots. so we don't operate like robots. Please stop telling us to operate that way. I haven't read what seems like anger directed at either of you. I didn't mean directed at me personally, just to clear that up. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 28, 2019 21:59:37 GMT
Thank you caroline What I would love to see more of around here is more support for the PROCESS that it takes to untangle ourselves from the relationships we are trying to figure out our ways from. I see a lot of projected anger towards some of us who aren't in that place yet of completely checking out of a relationship to just GO AHEAD AND PULL THE PLUG ALREADY. Why? Wasn't it a process for you too? Didn't you have to also have to get to that place, wherever it was, before you decided once and for all to end it and not look back? Obviously the relationships we leave behind here share so many similarities of dysfunction, otherwise we wouldn't be here, but we are all still individuals, as are the people we are with, so things may not go EXACTLY the way they went down with your situation. Can you just have some compassion for some of us who are taking the step by steps that we need to take to extricate ourselves from the relationship? We're dealing with enough, we don't need the pile on, especially here, a place where we are all seeking support in one way or another towards peace from otherwise turbulent relationships. I feel like everyone here should understand how difficult it can be to leave a relationship, even one that's not good for us anymore. We are not just leaving the bad parts of the relationship, we are leaving the great parts of the relationship, THAT is the part that hurts, not leaving the bad parts. If there wasn't ANY GOOD in a relationship then it would be easy to leave, but that's not how it is, is it? Humans are complex, therefore, relationships are too. If we were robots with no complex emotions then I suppose life would be so easy, but we aren't robots. so we don't operate like robots. Please stop telling us to operate that way. I agree that listening and patient support for someone's process is far more helpful. Its better to fully resolve whatever hooks have kept you stuck in an unsatisfying relationship, or you are vulnerable to repeating the same dynamic in new relationships. Its difficult for some people I guess, because our relationships are triggering for them; they trigger second hand trauma because of their own backgrounds . Second hand trauma affects people in various ways; it can make people victim blame you, outright disbelieve you, desire to fix or rescue you. It can be hard to sit with someone else's pain. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 28, 2019 22:27:47 GMT
Anyway, maybe this is a bit off topic, but I came to reply specifically to clarify the altering communication styles. Maybe some of you can relate with how you were raised or by how a key attachment figure has spoke to you. We're all just trying to survive, and I'm thankful for any sort of community that helps with that. Hey Caroline ! <3 Something I believe is not every social skill we learn in childhood is `wrong' just because we learned those skills because of difficult caregivers. Charm, consideration for others, adaptability, compassionate well-timed communication etc promote secure adult relationships, and are beneficial in the workforce as well. Avoidants behave the way they do because of their own issues, not because of our communication style. |
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 28, 2019 22:29:11 GMT
Thank you caroline What I would love to see more of around here is more support for the PROCESS that it takes to untangle ourselves from the relationships we are trying to figure out our ways from. I see a lot of projected anger towards some of us who aren't in that place yet of completely checking out of a relationship to just GO AHEAD AND PULL THE PLUG ALREADY. Why? Wasn't it a process for you too? Didn't you have to also have to get to that place, wherever it was, before you decided once and for all to end it and not look back? Obviously the relationships we leave behind here share so many similarities of dysfunction, otherwise we wouldn't be here, but we are all still individuals, as are the people we are with, so things may not go EXACTLY the way they went down with your situation. Can you just have some compassion for some of us who are taking the step by steps that we need to take to extricate ourselves from the relationship? We're dealing with enough, we don't need the pile on, especially here, a place where we are all seeking support in one way or another towards peace from otherwise turbulent relationships. I feel like everyone here should understand how difficult it can be to leave a relationship, even one that's not good for us anymore. We are not just leaving the bad parts of the relationship, we are leaving the great parts of the relationship, THAT is the part that hurts, not leaving the bad parts. If there wasn't ANY GOOD in a relationship then it would be easy to leave, but that's not how it is, is it? Humans are complex, therefore, relationships are too. If we were robots with no complex emotions then I suppose life would be so easy, but we aren't robots. so we don't operate like robots. Please stop telling us to operate that way. Its difficult for some people I guess, because our relationships are triggering for them; they trigger second hand trauma because of their own backgrounds . Second hand trauma affects people in various ways; it can make people victim blame you, outright disbelieve you, desire to fix or rescue you. It can be hard to sit with someone else's pain. I agree, and I feel like there is one particular person that it definitely triggers, who then turns things around on a person seeking support. |
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