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Post by stu on Oct 29, 2019 23:31:02 GMT
We are indeed responsible for our own boundaries. And for what it’s worth, narcissism is a result of childhood trauma as well. And sometimes certain types of brain wiring. But I think no one is biologically born into a narcissist, psychopath, sociopath, etc. There may be different components all going on, the same as people with nuerotransmittor deficiets or overload that make them more prone to violent explosive anger. But each person still has a responsibility of their own awareness and work on themselves to be an adjusted and well meaning persoon of society. No one is exempt from consequences just because they had a different type of hand given to them in life to excuse bad behavior and abuse. |
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Post by dhali on Oct 29, 2019 23:36:12 GMT
Exactly my point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 23:41:02 GMT
We are indeed responsible for our own boundaries. And for what it’s worth, narcissism is a result of childhood trauma as well. And sometimes certain types of brain wiring. But I think no one is biologically born into a narcissist, psychopath, sociopath, etc. There may be different components all going on, the same as people with nuerotransmittor deficiets or overload that make them more prone to violent explosive anger. But each person still has a responsibility of their own awareness and work on themselves to be an adjusted and well meaning persoon of society. No one is exempt from consequences just because they had a different type of hand given to them in life to excuse bad behavior and abuse. Dr. Les Carter made a really great point on the topic of dealing with an abusive narcissist. He mentioned the need to have a mature perspective of the world and human nature, and to recognize if one (self) is in possession of an idealized notion about human nature. My point in this is again, nobody really gets a free pass including those who have an idealistic notion of how they "should" be treated, and instead we all have to be able to adjust our perspectives and boundaries to the reality of very flawed and broken individuals existing around us. Trust has to be established, intimacy takes time, and red flags are real warnings. Its not easy to overcome flawed perceptions and poor boundaries around harmful behaviors. But it's necessary. It's not a shaming view, just a mature one, in my opinion. |
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Post by dhali on Oct 29, 2019 23:47:36 GMT
And sometimes certain types of brain wiring. But I think no one is biologically born into a narcissist, psychopath, sociopath, etc. There may be different components all going on, the same as people with nuerotransmittor deficiets or overload that make them more prone to violent explosive anger. But each person still has a responsibility of their own awareness and work on themselves to be an adjusted and well meaning persoon of society. No one is exempt from consequences just because they had a different type of hand given to them in life to excuse bad behavior and abuse. Dr. Les Carter made a really great point on the topic of dealing with an abusive narcissist. He mentioned the need to have a mature perspective of the world and human nature, and to recognize if one (self) is in possession of an idealized notion about human nature. My point in this is again, nobody really gets a free pass including those who have an idealistic notion of how they "should" be treated, and instead we all have to be able to adjust our perspectives and boundaries to the reality of very flawed and broken individuals existing around us. Trust has to be established, intimacy takes time, and red flags are real warnings. Its not easy to overcome flawed perceptions and poor boundaries around harmful behaviors. But it's necessary. It's not a shaming view, just a mature one, in my opinion. Very well written. And I really like the red flag part. And really the should part should (sic) be a part of that. You have standards of behavior. If your other doesn’t adhere to that, it’s a red flag. That includes intermittent reenforcement. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 23:51:14 GMT
I have seen it written, Ive said it myself, I've heard it with my own ears and I believe fully:
You teach people how to treat you. You really do!
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 29, 2019 23:55:18 GMT
We are indeed responsible for our own boundaries. And for what it’s worth, narcissism is a result of childhood trauma as well. But each person still has a responsibility of their own awareness and work on themselves to be an adjusted and well meaning persoon of society. No one is exempt from consequences just because they had a different type of hand given to them in life to excuse bad behavior and abuse. I completely agree, but we all reach that at different times in our lives for different reasons. I started my journey a long time ago because I recognized that I was self sabotaging with someone who was so great to me and I thought, I really need to change this. Before that relationship though, I didn't know that I had anything to change. Some people don't ever reach that awareness and they may die alone. Some people reach the awareness late in life and it is still too late because their chances of meeting anyone are gone. No one is exempt, but not everyone knows that about themselves, if that makes sense. That doesn't mean I'm giving them a pass, but if they don't know to help themselves, they don't know. They'll continue hurting themselves and others and it will be a miserable life. |
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Post by persephone on Oct 30, 2019 1:14:24 GMT
The precise definition of the word "abuse," like all words, is subjective, and it's a particularly hard to define word. That does not make the action of abuse itself subjective, the person who feels they were abused does not in fact get to decide if it's abuse. Narcissistic abusers themselves often say they are the ones being abused. Does that make them abused? No. Is the definition of abuse "anything that I find hurtful"? No. Sure, someone else could argue about the definition of the word, and say "Well I DO think the word abuse means anything I find hurtful," but then I'm well within my rights to argue that is not what the word means. Words like "affectionate" and "smothering" are more emotional words, about how one perceives an action, whereas abuse is a word that refers to an action itself. This thread has become a big semantics debate. Yes, just being hurtful to your partner may not fit the definition of abuse. But doing it repeatedly (like intermittent reinforcement) seems like can be interpreted as abusive by a lot of people. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 30, 2019 1:33:38 GMT
The precise definition of the word "abuse," like all words, is subjective, and it's a particularly hard to define word. That does not make the action of abuse itself subjective, the person who feels they were abused does not in fact get to decide if it's abuse. Narcissistic abusers themselves often say they are the ones being abused. Does that make them abused? No. Is the definition of abuse "anything that I find hurtful"? No. Sure, someone else could argue about the definition of the word, and say "Well I DO think the word abuse means anything I find hurtful," but then I'm well within my rights to argue that is not what the word means. Words like "affectionate" and "smothering" are more emotional words, about how one perceives an action, whereas abuse is a word that refers to an action itself. This thread has become a big semantics debate. Yes, just being hurtful to your partner may not fit the definition of abuse. But doing it repeatedly (like intermittent reinforcement) seems like can be interpreted as abusive by a lot of people. Not taking responsibility for abusive behaviour is cop out and doesn't take into account real power imbalances that exist in society. Between parent and child. Employer and employee. Between the financially empowered and the unempowered. The costs to some in setting boundaries is very high compared to the more empowered party. I know easily if I'm being cruel to an animal or a human being. The pain shows. If I do it again, I consider myself being cruel. Some people can do this over and over and over, and come up with all kind of victim blaming and other justifications. I call that lack of empathy. |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 30, 2019 7:37:23 GMT
The thing about intermittent reinforcement is that it’s passive. It’s generally not actively violent (physically or verbally) in the way that we typically categorize abusive situations. It seems to me that it’s in a different category altogether and it does raise questions about what is considered abuse.
And yes - we all have responsibility for ourselves and the way we allow others to treat us, but my concern is this mindset could easily turn into a kind of victim blaming of people who “allow” abuse or “teach” others to abuse them. It seems like a fine line there.
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Post by stu on Oct 30, 2019 10:58:53 GMT
But each person still has a responsibility of their own awareness and work on themselves to be an adjusted and well meaning persoon of society. No one is exempt from consequences just because they had a different type of hand given to them in life to excuse bad behavior and abuse. I completely agree, but we all reach that at different times in our lives for different reasons. I started my journey a long time ago because I recognized that I was self sabotaging with someone who was so great to me and I thought, I really need to change this. Before that relationship though, I didn't know that I had anything to change. Some people don't ever reach that awareness and they may die alone. Some people reach the awareness late in life and it is still too late because their chances of meeting anyone are gone. No one is exempt, but not everyone knows that about themselves, if that makes sense. That doesn't mean I'm giving them a pass, but if they don't know to help themselves, they don't know. They'll continue hurting themselves and others and it will be a miserable life. Well I'm talking about people that are purposedly abusive but I guess it can apply to a spectrum as well. And yes that's extremly true I notice that all the time. Some people like my parents go their entire lives feeling miserable and never changing their patterns and it leads to some really toxic stuff happening . Really you can say this about the human race as a whole. Since now we seem to be talking about the root of suffering and conflict for so many people. I'm glad you were able to recognize those things and move past them that's awesome. It's so liberating to be free of our old conditioning, especially when it causes us and those around us so much aunnecessary pain and suffering. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 11:45:14 GMT
The thing about intermittent reinforcement is that it’s passive. It’s generally not actively violent (physically or verbally) in the way that we typically categorize abusive situations. It seems to me that it’s in a different category altogether and it does raise questions about what is considered abuse. And yes - we all have responsibility for ourselves and the way we allow others to treat us, but my concern is this mindset could easily turn into a kind of victim blaming of people who “allow” abuse or “teach” others to abuse them. It seems like a fine line there. I think that line could only be used to blame a victim by a cruel person. That's not the context of the saying. Anything anyone says can be twisted but doesn't make it reasonable.. Here is what it really psychcentral.com/blog/what-it-means-to-teach-people-how-to-treat-you/ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 11:48:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 11:50:23 GMT
There is the aspect of reinforcing bad behavior by allowing it. That's something a lot people here have learned in a painful way. It doesn't justify the behaviors they allowed- but somehow they did. Do you see that? People can also justify horrible behaviors toward them, and they do it here all the time!
That's reinforcement, and enabling.
A case in point, is here on the forum right now. There is a big discussion on ghosting. Many of us find it abusive, including me.
The members who are tolerating and justifying it are urged to make a boundary, dont toleratr it, but they haven't yet, even though the ghosting has occurred before. It was not confronted.
So, here is a case of bad behavior behind justified and excused by the recipient. I bet a thousand dollars when it ends badly, the people mistreated will feel angry and as though try were abused. They will have been. But, they reinforced it. They defended it even!
Ghosting could be seen as the most passive abuse possible. And it's also preventable the second time and every time going forward, by refusing to justify, and excuse it.
If you read the thread, you will see hostility on the part of one of the individuals ghosted, toward people on the thread calling it abuse, and encouraging her to not tolerate it. It's a perfect example of this point, and the futility of even discussing the problem in some cases.
So, there really is a blurry line but it's not only in one place.
Just an example of what is meant by the saying. In a case of power difference, violence, anything of that nature where an individual is overpowered and not able to make boundaries and find safety this saying is inappropriate which is common sense to most decent people I think.
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 30, 2019 13:27:41 GMT
There is the aspect of reinforcing bad behavior by allowing it. That's something a lot people here have learned in a painful way. It doesn't justify the behaviors they allowed- but somehow they did. Do you see that? People can also justify horrible behaviors toward them, and they do it here all the time! That's reinforcement, and enabling. A case in point, is here on the forum right now. There is a big discussion on ghosting. Many of us find it abusive, including me. The members who are tolerating and justifying it are urged to make a boundary, dont toleratr it, but they haven't yet, even though the ghosting has occurred before. It was not confronted. So, here is a case of bad behavior behind justified and excused by the recipient. I bet a thousand dollars when it ends badly, the people mistreated will feel angry and as though try were abused. They will have been. But, they reinforced it. They defended it even! Ghosting could be seen as the most passive abuse possible. And it's also preventable the second time and every time going forward, by refusing to justify, and excuse it. If you read the thread, you will see hostility on the part of one of the individuals ghosted, toward people on the thread calling it abuse, and encouraging her to not tolerate it. It's a perfect example of this point, and the futility of even discussing the problem in some cases. So, there really is a blurry line but it's not only in one place. Just an example of what is meant by the saying. In a case of power difference, violence, anything of that nature where an individual is overpowered and not able to make boundaries and find safety this saying is inappropriate which is common sense to most decent people I think. Can we define what ghosting means? Does it mean not making consistent contact, or not contacting forever? I'd like to know. Because when an FA is deactivating, I find that very different from say a DA who really just can't deal at all and ghosts forever. FAs in my experience circle back around eventually. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but I am saying it speaks a lot to how their minds think, as many articles I have read talk about it. Also, some people take ghosting harder than others for whatever reasons. When the DA in my life ghosted me, I was bummed but it wasn't too long that I realized it was a gigantic blessing in disguise. He was a lonely loser who didn't deserve anyone good in his life anyway and I'm glad he did me the favor of shutting me out. NO love lost. Another FA checked out on me, but would cycle back in and out, until I finally shut it down for good. So what does ghosting mean to people here? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 13:37:24 GMT
There is the aspect of reinforcing bad behavior by allowing it. That's something a lot people here have learned in a painful way. It doesn't justify the behaviors they allowed- but somehow they did. Do you see that? People can also justify horrible behaviors toward them, and they do it here all the time! That's reinforcement, and enabling. A case in point, is here on the forum right now. There is a big discussion on ghosting. Many of us find it abusive, including me. The members who are tolerating and justifying it are urged to make a boundary, dont toleratr it, but they haven't yet, even though the ghosting has occurred before. It was not confronted. So, here is a case of bad behavior behind justified and excused by the recipient. I bet a thousand dollars when it ends badly, the people mistreated will feel angry and as though try were abused. They will have been. But, they reinforced it. They defended it even! Ghosting could be seen as the most passive abuse possible. And it's also preventable the second time and every time going forward, by refusing to justify, and excuse it. If you read the thread, you will see hostility on the part of one of the individuals ghosted, toward people on the thread calling it abuse, and encouraging her to not tolerate it. It's a perfect example of this point, and the futility of even discussing the problem in some cases. So, there really is a blurry line but it's not only in one place. Just an example of what is meant by the saying. In a case of power difference, violence, anything of that nature where an individual is overpowered and not able to make boundaries and find safety this saying is inappropriate which is common sense to most decent people I think. Can we define what ghosting means? Does it mean not making consistent contact, or not contacting forever? I'd like to know. Because when an FA is deactivating, I find that very different from say a DA who really just can't deal at all and ghosts forever. FAs in my experience circle back around eventually. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but I am saying it speaks a lot to how their minds think, as many articles I have read talk about it. Also, some people take ghosting harder than others for whatever reasons. When the DA in my life ghosted me, I was bummed but it wasn't too long that I realized it was a gigantic blessing in disguise. He was a lonely loser who didn't deserve anyone good in his life anyway and I'm glad he did me the favor of shutting me out. NO love lost. Another FA checked out on me, but would cycle back in and out, until I finally shut it down for good. So what does ghosting mean to people here? To the title of this thread, some would see cyclical disappearance / reappearance as a form of intermittent reinforcement. Intermittently available. Intermittently not. |
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