|
Post by serenity on Oct 28, 2019 22:32:53 GMT
I was reading this article today by Teal Swan (I probably found it on this forum somewhere). Theres LOTS of helpful stuff here. Do you feel that intermittent reinforcement is Abuse? tealswan.com/resources/articles/intermittent-reinforcement-why-you-cant-leave-the-relationship-r210/ ``What we have to wake up to is that some of us are in relationships that are based on intermittent reinforcement. In this kind of relationship, the things we need, like love, are only granted inconsistently, unpredictably and occasionally. But the fact that they are granted occasionally, keeps us hooked. We are owned by the relationship. We build up so much despair and starvation that when we get a single scrap, the relief we experience by getting a scrap feels like nirvana and we begin to chase that feeling and do anything we can do to get it. If you are in this kind of a relationship, you are either the scientist tormenting the rat with the potential of pellets or you are the rat in the cage caught in a cycle of torment. No matter what, if you are in an intermittent reinforcement relationship, you are in an abusive relationship. Abuse is usually not the conscious intent, but it is abuse nonetheless. ''
|
|
|
Post by stu on Oct 28, 2019 22:44:47 GMT
The effects on our brain and nervous system are the same. Whether it's someone who is just emotionally unavailable, or directly a narcissist and manipulator. The effects the behavior has on you is still the same. I just like to separate things so that people don't demonize others for their insecure attachment style. If someone is doing something hurtful and damaging, it doesn't matter the reason. It's not okay and is always best to have strong boundaries and protect yourself. The longer you stay the more confused you feel and choatic things can get.
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Oct 28, 2019 22:47:36 GMT
serenity Well "abuse" is hard to define, but I think abuse is a strong word and denotes a pattern of behavior used by one person to gain and maintain control over another through (often knowingly) harmful means. If I have a friend who I only accept plans with once every couple months, am I abusing them? I don't think so. Was my now-ex abusing me by rejecting my sexual advances half the time? I don't think so. Intermittent reinforcement isn't inherently intentional. Not everything that hurts us is abuse.
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Oct 28, 2019 22:52:01 GMT
Yeah, Teal spins the behaviour to be an act of (subconscious) control over someone else. I'm unsure that this is entirely correct outside of relationships with manipulators? The control sought seems to be over their own emotions, not over another person?
Its good to be aware of the effect on your own nervous system in a relationship like this.
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Oct 28, 2019 23:00:30 GMT
I was reading this article today by Teal Swan (I probably found it on this forum somewhere). Theres LOTS of helpful stuff here. Do you feel that intermittent reinforcement is Abuse? tealswan.com/resources/articles/intermittent-reinforcement-why-you-cant-leave-the-relationship-r210/ ``What we have to wake up to is that some of us are in relationships that are based on intermittent reinforcement. In this kind of relationship, the things we need, like love, are only granted inconsistently, unpredictably and occasionally. But the fact that they are granted occasionally, keeps us hooked. We are owned by the relationship. We build up so much despair and starvation that when we get a single scrap, the relief we experience by getting a scrap feels like nirvana and we begin to chase that feeling and do anything we can do to get it. If you are in this kind of a relationship, you are either the scientist tormenting the rat with the potential of pellets or you are the rat in the cage caught in a cycle of torment. No matter what, if you are in an intermittent reinforcement relationship, you are in an abusive relationship. Abuse is usually not the conscious intent, but it is abuse nonetheless. ''
Abuse is abuse, I agree. I have to be honest though and say that I can be more forgiving or otherwise more patient with certain kinds of abuse, such as the abuse I have gotten from my FA bf and his deactivations, though I am getting weary of it, it is wearing me down. With my ex husband, he went through a time when he was being severely emotionally and verbally abusive to me, and at some point I snapped and started spitting fire back at him. I do think a lot of people can relate to how it's not always easy to just walk away from a relationship that has these elements to them. If it were that easy, none of us would be here!
|
|
|
Post by stu on Oct 28, 2019 23:06:32 GMT
Yeah, Teal spins the behaviour to be an act of (subconscious) control over someone else. I'm unsure that this is entirely correct outside of relationships with manipulators? The control sought seems to be over their own emotions, not over another person? Its good to be aware of the effect on your own nervous system in a relationship like this. Yes most the time and fa or acoidant is only trying to control their own feelings and sense of self. It's not about directly trying to control and manipulate those around them. There's a big difference in that. But on the outside interminnent reinforcement does cause some changes in dynamics and in the other persons mind. Part of me wonders though. That sometimes a person with insecure attachment does try and also control those around them as well. Such as not being forthright, lying, omission, doing things with another person to avoid feeling a sense of abandonment themselves at the detriment of the other person's autonomy and we'll being. Etc. This happens for example in an insecure that might start dating someone new whilst still in a relationship with another to be able to move on easier and having a lack of respect or care for the other people involved. Or shutting down and giving the silent treatment as a means of punishment, etc many examples of different behaviors that are more common in people with different types of insecure attachment.s
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Oct 28, 2019 23:07:28 GMT
I think it greatly depends on what the behavior is and the context, but there is plenty of intermittent reinforcement that is not an act of control. When I only accept my friend's invitations to do stuff every once in a while, it's purely because I only want to hang out once in a while, not because I'm trying to control her. There are many reasons I don't want to get together more frequently, none of which are about manipulating her. Now if she is secretly AP and it's hurting her every time I say no and confusing and encouraging her every time I say yes, that's not my fault and doesn't make me abusive. If, on the other hand, she has told me repeatedly that this hurts her deeply and she needs more and I refuse to even talk to her about it and just keep doing it, making no decision to either stop being friends with her or make an effort to see her more often, well that makes me an asshole, maybe even abusive, for knowingly hurting someone over and over. I do think it matters whether you are doing the thing knowing it harms the other person.
Everyone is a bit manipulative. The word has gotten an unnecessarily bad rap. We all want to influence people. So I'm not sure what exactly constitutes a "manipulator"? Someone who is highly manipulative with no regard for whether or not they're harming people?
|
|
|
Post by stu on Oct 28, 2019 23:23:03 GMT
I think it greatly depends on what the behavior is and the context, but there is plenty of intermittent reinforcement that is not an act of control. When I only accept my friend's invitations to do stuff every once in a while, it's purely because I only want to hang out once in a while, not because I'm trying to control her. There are many reasons I don't want to get together more frequently, none of which are about manipulating her. Now if she is secretly AP and it's hurting her every time I say no and confusing and encouraging her every time I say yes, that's not my fault and doesn't make me abusive. If, on the other hand, she has told me repeatedly that this hurts her deeply and she needs more and I refuse to even talk to her about it and just keep doing it, making no decision to either stop being friends with her or make an effort to see her more often, well that makes me an asshole, maybe even abusive, for knowingly hurting someone over and over. I do think it matters whether you are doing the thing knowing it harms the other person. Everyone is a bit manipulative. The word has gotten an unnecessarily bad rap. We all want to influence people. So I'm not sure what exactly constitutes a "manipulator"? Someone who is highly manipulative with no regard for whether or not they're harming people? Great points and to answer the last part I think a manipulator in the negative sense is someone who is acting on self interest at the detriment of another knowingly. Basically using others to get their needs met without concern of the others well being or sense of autonomy. Declining invites to hang out and only going every so often is different then interminnent re inforcement where someone rejects emotional bids 90 percent of the time and is acting emotionally neglectful to those around them. This kind of stuff is really situational because you have to use a specific example to differentiate what would be deemed harmful, vs just not having the same needs.
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Oct 28, 2019 23:25:05 GMT
I think it greatly depends on what the behavior is and the context, but there is plenty of intermittent reinforcement that is not an act of control. When I only accept my friend's invitations to do stuff every once in a while, it's purely because I only want to hang out once in a while, not because I'm trying to control her. There are many reasons I don't want to get together more frequently, none of which are about manipulating her. Now if she is secretly AP and it's hurting her every time I say no and confusing and encouraging her every time I say yes, that's not my fault and doesn't make me abusive. If, on the other hand, she has told me repeatedly that this hurts her deeply and she needs more and I refuse to even talk to her about it and just keep doing it, making no decision to either stop being friends with her or make an effort to see her more often, well that makes me an asshole, maybe even abusive, for knowingly hurting someone over and over. I do think it matters whether you are doing the thing knowing it harms the other person. Everyone is a bit manipulative. The word has gotten an unnecessarily bad rap. We all want to influence people. So I'm not sure what exactly constitutes a "manipulator"? Someone who is highly manipulative with no regard for whether or not they're harming people? Teal is talking more in context of intimate romantic relationships, where someone's most important emotional needs supposedly get met. I would think your friend gets her main emotional needs met from either her primary attachment figure, or via a variety of freindships? I agree she would say something if the contact you have is unsatisfying.
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Oct 28, 2019 23:26:06 GMT
I would call callousness, contempt, and aloofness to be done with no regard for the people being harmed. No?
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Oct 28, 2019 23:42:53 GMT
I do think a lot of people can relate to how it's not always easy to just walk away from a relationship that has these elements to them. If it were that easy, none of us would be here! Exactly. Your brain chemistry and nervous system works against you, and most articles stress that its one of the hardest relationship dynamics to break out of. And they don't start out this way They start out as consistent and loving for many months before the switch flips.
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Oct 28, 2019 23:50:04 GMT
While I've seen a few good things from Teal Swan on attachment, be careful with her. From an older thread in the support for AP board: A word of warning - I came across Teal Swan (the woman in the video) again today and found some disturbing stuff. I watched this video when it was first posted and really liked it at first - she is saying a lot of stuff that makes sense, and in a very captivating and convincing way. But something bothered me about the way she handled her guests and audience. She is telling them how they are feeling and thinking. She said to that avoidant man "you become abusive" - how could she say such thing? She doesn't know him. And she really takes the attention of her audience, it's like the point is her performance. The focus is on her, not on her guests. YouTube started to suggest more videos from her and I watched a few of them. Some really weird videos started to emerge - "Spirit Animals", "Why Don't We Remember Past Lives" ... I googled her. She calls herself a "spiritual teacher". Critics call her a cult leader. She claims to have supernatural powers and to have been abused for years in satanic rituals. She claims to get her information from God, not from books - even though she has been accused of plagiarism, presenting other people's work in her videos without reference. She's also said sometimes it's good to commit suicide because that's how you "reset life". Yet she has a huge amount of fanatic followers who defend her. She's presenting herself as a trauma expert without any kind of education or licence. This is also why she has no accountability. I really recommend not watching her videos at all. Her videos may have some good stuff but it's used for a bad purpose. The more views she gets, the more her cult spreads. Sources: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teal_Swantealswanblog.wordpress.com/psychotherapy/www.jessicaschab.com/exposing.html
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 0:02:10 GMT
alexandra I have run across that info about her also, she's very sketchy from what I can see. Much prefer the more neuro approach of DPH and Peter Levine, it's not all drama and victimhood, about any of the styles.
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Oct 29, 2019 0:37:25 GMT
lol ``why we don't remember past lives''.
I think this article about intermittent reinforcement is especially good, and is based on well researched pavlovian scientific experiments and operand conditioning (all legit science). Her assertion about the motives for the behaviour is what I question personally (desire to control others)
|
|
|
Post by persephone on Oct 29, 2019 1:25:05 GMT
I told my therapist last week about the things my ex FA did to me. She said some considered those actions to be abusive. I was quite shocked as I had never thought of what he did qualified as abusive because as an AP, I minimalised the bad things he did. Why? Because APs do not have strong boundaries, we desperately are trying to bend over backwards so our partners would will love us. BUT, that “intermittent reinforcement” did come into play; he would do something bad and then if I pushed away, he’d be sweet and loving. So, every time he gave me a breadcrumb, it would be the most amazing thing ever.
A Secure person would see abusive behaviour as it is and not tolerate it. Frankly, that is the right thing to do, because it can help FA/ DAs identify what they’re doing is hurting their partners. (Unfortunately, when I tried to explain I was hurt by something in the most civil way I could, my ex FA simply concluded I didn’t love him for who he was).
The point is, if all APs stood their ground and acted like Secures would, maybe FA/ DAs can become aware sooner... Even if it means they will be single for a very, very long time.
|
|