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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 20:50:10 GMT
I'm wondering if the posts talking about meditation relate really to the original topic which is an FA poster asking for experiences about the Freeze state specifically. In an open discussion I could see the diversion as appropriate but believe the support section to be set aside for reasons of exploring support topics specifically?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 21:14:49 GMT
dhali If you are used to do a lot of meditation the problem can sometimes be this: The trap/the problem is: Who is watching the observer ? When fine tuning into an object, you can not see/feel yourself and your body. Jean Klein / John J. Prendergast A lot of SE therapists warns about this method I know for me, since a level of freeze is kind of a default state for me I have to practice being very present in my body, my feelings, etc. Some meditation techniques seems to really exacerbate my disconnect and while I can feel blissful and unperturbed it's not the real life "boots on the ground" experience I need to develop more presence and emotional security and connection. I'm super good at detaching- I need to tune in and feel, experience., in order to heal and make progress. |
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Nov 20, 2019 21:16:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 0:35:24 GMT
The problem here is that dhali is not understanding what the word disassociation means. It’s not mindfulness or looking at things objectively. It involves losing touch with your normal perceptions, emotions, etc. I have lots of experience with disassociation and also with meditation and mindfulness etc and can explain how each feels for me if you like. You might want to also Google disassociation, derealization and depersonalization. I think it is very easy to confuse dissociation and mindfulness, because the way both are described is so similar! I used to think I was mindful and just reacting from a place of calm; it was more of dissociation/depersonalization rather than mindfulness. Now when I'm mindful, I still feel my body and see from my physical self though I am able to detach from my emotions and thoughts. I'm still rooted in my own core. My freeze state is being detached from reality so much so that I am not even really feeling myself and my emotions. There's a heightened sense of awareness/wariness without really being rooted in reality/myself. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 3:17:43 GMT
As I go along and I become more aware, I can observe all kinds of things related to deactivation and freeze. Sometimes my attachment diminishes and disappears with no apparent relationship to a noticeable freeze response. If I'm busy or stressed due to some kind of emergent situation, or something that requires my intense focus, I might be rather tuned into that just fine but really feel a disconnect to my attachment.
As far as mindfulness- the best practice for me is mindfulness in daily life and activity, being present to the moment as well as to internal states. If I feel some kind of stress and were to lay down and do some relaxation I would just fall asleep. It's extraordinarily easy for me to get calm. So if I need to pay attention to and resolve something in myself I have to take kind of an active interest in identifying it and really feeling what's going on.
It's been very interesting to become aware and notice and differentiate over time, what works and what doesn't as far as resolving my attachment and nervous system responses. SE therapy obviously has helped a lot. And I have to be aware of what I'm going through the day because slipping into "zen" which is actually dorsal and not ventral can be an issue. Ive actually missed some pretty important things in life with the insulation of the avoidant adaptation. You don't know until you know. It takes time to figure it all out.
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Post by dhali on Nov 21, 2019 4:18:07 GMT
Got it. I’ve never experienced this freeze. And it does sound similar to mindfulness, strangely. Though not welcome. In my extreme forms of mindfulness, I can be unconnected to even physical pain, in a sense. It becomes farily undifferentiated vs any other stimuli that is existing. I’m aware of it, but it’s neither pleasant nor unpleasant. It just is. There’s no focus on caring about it. That’s what I referred to as disassociating. Sorry for creating a circus.
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Post by serenity on Nov 21, 2019 7:03:41 GMT
I can relate, and that would be my take on it too Janedoe.. mindfulness feels like a hyper focus on the moment.. noticing your body, your thoughts, feelings, without judgement. PTSD Dissociation for me is zoning out and numbness due to a flooding of triggers. I don't always know I'm doing it.
I wonder if that's why meditation never really appealed to me? When dissociation is already a problem, I feel `coming back to the moment' is more of a priority than learning to detach?
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 21, 2019 11:46:25 GMT
I did that with B after he broke up with me...he no longer felt “safe”.
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Post by ocarina on Nov 21, 2019 17:55:27 GMT
The OP's description suggested the freeze state was involuntary and that there was a distinct feeling of lack of presence - the meditative state is one of holding emotions with awareness and is an experience of intense presence and ability to feel viscerally and allow feelings to be present without getting lost within them.
As a long term meditator and avoidant I have used meditation to avoid - in that it does enable one to be the dispassionate observer and sometimes this is useful - but it's not the point. I think having wise and very experienced teachers in this realm is really important otherwise meditation can become a portal for detachment which is not the point.
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Post by mrob on Nov 23, 2019 18:40:32 GMT
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Post by ocarina on Nov 24, 2019 7:51:46 GMT
Thank you mrob Hope you are doing well. I found myself getting hooked into these boards and seeing the same old same old and felt it was keeping me in a holding pattern where I was reliving my own "issues" and past hurts. It was useful to be aware, but less useful to get tied into this via other peoples stories. I have come to some kind of realisation that I'm not broken - none of us are. That we tell ourselves these things that embed our past and keep us stuck. Letting go of it has been helpful. By which I mean letting go of the stories rather than embracing reality. With many good wishes to all the posters who's stories I have come to know so well. May you find peace amongst lifes chaos. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2019 13:13:42 GMT
Thank you mrob Hope you are doing well. I found myself getting hooked into these boards and seeing the same old same old and felt it was keeping me in a holding pattern where I was reliving my own "issues" and past hurts. It was useful to be aware, but less useful to get tied into this via other peoples stories. I have come to some kind of realisation that I'm not broken - none of us are. That we tell ourselves these things that embed our past and keep us stuck. Letting go of it has been helpful. By which I mean letting go of the stories rather than embracing reality. With many good wishes to all the posters who's stories I have come to know so well. May you find peace amongst lifes chaos. When you say "we", maybe you could more accurately say "I". Your tendency here does not equal everyone else's tendency. I personally have gained a lot of very useful information and introspection on this forum, by participating in fruitful discussions with other people who are aware of attachment theory and it's real impacts on their life. A lot of very well educated people recognize the impacts of developmental trauma on human functioning in relationships. It is not a matter of being broken; but it is a matter of patterns in the nervous system being on repeat. In my daily life, I encounter no one who is actively engaged in attempting to understand or work with these ingrained patterns and it's very helpful to find that here. Im glad you have found what works and what doesn't work for you, but this post has a distinct sense of dismissive superiority in it, as I read it. Best of luck to you as well, I'm not sure why you felt the need to come here and log in just to dismiss your experience and the experience of others here. |
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Post by ocarina on Nov 24, 2019 22:09:39 GMT
Ouch.
Apologies if it came across that way - I was not intending to dismiss my experience or make any comment on anyone elses process. This board was an important part of my journey for many years and I too gained real insight from interacting here.
I - and again this is very much a personal experience, did find myself getting entrapped in the semantics and the analysis. No right or wrong and no superiority - I haven't found the "answer" just find myself taking a different fork in the path.
Apologies also to the OP - I'll bow out now.
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Post by mrob on Nov 24, 2019 23:13:26 GMT
Fair’s fair @inmourning.... You’ve had times when you’ve had to take a break from this forum, too.
For me, you two have undergone the most vigorous transformations in the time I’ve been here and have been invaluable in lighting the way.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2019 23:25:49 GMT
I get that, but I also feel that the support forum is important and that this OP was trying to address an issue with Freeze not stories. I'm not trying to be horrible but it hit me the wrong way, placement I guess. No hard feelings here!  Thanks ocarina and mrob , I think a lot of good comes from here too. |
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