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Post by mrob on Nov 20, 2019 4:49:24 GMT
Yes, I can relate to that.
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Post by happyidiot on Nov 20, 2019 7:50:26 GMT
Yes, I can certainly relate too. anne12 can probably explain it well.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 9:54:50 GMT
Me too. It feels like my heart froze up and then I depersonalize in the sense that I am not in myself fully but watching myself as a third person. It happens when I was unaware that I was being vulnerable and my partner says something that made me feel I was in danger/embarrassed/ashamed. I close up and freeze them out. I used to hide it a lot better (and thought it was normal) but these days I literally freeze up in order to not lash out and/or run away.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 9:55:07 GMT
Me too. It feels like my heart froze up and then I depersonalize in the sense that I am not in myself fully but watching myself as a third person. It happens when I was unaware that I was being vulnerable and my partner says something that made me feel I was in danger/embarrassed/ashamed. I close up and freeze them out. I used to hide it a lot better (and thought it was normal) but these days I literally freeze up in order to not lash out and/or run away.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 14:05:39 GMT
For me, yes to freeze in varying degrees but no to dissociation and depersonalization as described above.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 18:50:02 GMT
For me, yes to freeze in varying degrees but no to dissociation and depersonalization as described above. What’s the difference? I’m sure there are other threads and I’ve read some but I don’t quite understand, yet. I'm simply making a distinction in what I relate to and how I would describe it. The actual difference may be along the lines of these reactions being on a spectrum. My therapist has said that the freeze response can happen on a spectrum from mildly zenned and zoned out to dissociated. The sympathetic responses also happen on a spectrum- so one could experience a range of sympathetic state reactions- for example ranging from mild anxiety to full panic. Irritation to rage, etc. My guess is that these responses vary by individual due to the unique life events and associations that occur. And many other factors. So the difference will be in what you experience and what you relate to, which could be explained by nervous system activity.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 20, 2019 18:54:21 GMT
What’s the difference? I’m sure there are other threads and I’ve read some but I don’t quite understand, yet. I'm simply making a distinction in what I relate to and how I would describe it. The actual difference may be along the lines of these reactions being on a spectrum. My therapist has said that the freeze response can happen on a spectrum from mildly zenned and zoned out to dissociated. The sympathetic responses also happen on a spectrum- so one could experience a range of sympathetic state reactions- for example ranging from mild anxiety to full panic. Irritation to rage, etc. My guess is that these responses vary by individual due to the unique life events and associations that occur. And many other factors. So the difference will be in what you experience and what you relate to, which could be explained by nervous system activity. In my personal experience, I've also observed disassociation to be primarily an FA thing and not usually a DA thing, and @inmourning is DA. That's anecdotal but I think there's a difference in the learned coping and defense mechanisms that comes from the differences in circumstances and genetic dispositions that lead to someone becoming DA vs FA.
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Post by dhali on Nov 20, 2019 19:24:08 GMT
but watching myself as a third person. It happens when I was unaware that I was being vulnerable and my partner says something that made me feel I was in danger/embarrassed/ashamed. The watching myself from outside myself. I relate also. Recently I feel like I’ve been doing that a lot in many ways. I think this happened to me all the time as a kid on the embarrassment front. I never knew this was abnormal. The ability to watch yourself from the outside and disassociate from your emotions is actually a sign of emotional intelligence and something secures practice a lot of. It also allows you to view the other person that way and have empathy.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 20, 2019 19:30:22 GMT
The watching myself from outside myself. I relate also. Recently I feel like I’ve been doing that a lot in many ways. I think this happened to me all the time as a kid on the embarrassment front. I never knew this was abnormal. The ability to watch yourself from the outside and disassociate from your emotions is actually a sign of emotional intelligence and something secures practice a lot of. It also allows you to view the other person that way and have empathy. Please cite your source for this. Disassociation is a disconnection and detachment from reality to ease internal trauma responses, such as anxiety or stress. It is not an empathetic response, and secures do not do this when being empathetic. Secures can see things from different perspectives to better understand them, but they don't do that by disconnecting from reality.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 19:36:09 GMT
I'm simply making a distinction in what I relate to and how I would describe it. The actual difference may be along the lines of these reactions being on a spectrum. My therapist has said that the freeze response can happen on a spectrum from mildly zenned and zoned out to dissociated. The sympathetic responses also happen on a spectrum- so one could experience a range of sympathetic state reactions- for example ranging from mild anxiety to full panic. Irritation to rage, etc. My guess is that these responses vary by individual due to the unique life events and associations that occur. And many other factors. So the difference will be in what you experience and what you relate to, which could be explained by nervous system activity. In my personal experience, I've also observed disassociation to be primarily an FA thing and not usually a DA thing, and @inmourning is DA. That's anecdotal but I think there's a difference in the learned coping and defense mechanisms that comes from the differences in circumstances and genetic dispositions that lead to someone becoming DA vs FA. The presence of trauma/unresolved trauma factors in as well. In review of my history, it seems that I've kicked into situational disorganized around traumatic events (which I've dismissed as not that traumatic, go figure) and then returned to avoidant (my therapist doesn't use the terms dismissive he uses avoidant and disorganized.) I am still trying to understand things myself. But what I'm told is that my responses are textbook avoidant in terms of my nervous system/attachment, I can be triggered into other strategies, and my therapist also says pretty much all of us have "pockets" of disorganized even if it's not our main attachment style. That makes sense given the huge list of things that are considered trauma and regarded as such by the nervous system even if we don't cognitively register it as trauma. For instance, I had a major surgery for a very serious emergency that was very sudden. I was hospitalized for several days and it didn't register to me for months afterward how serious it all was. Looking back, I can see that I was separated from the trauma and didn't practice appropriate self care, and wasn't in tune with my self. People around me were frustrated that I was not protecting myself adequately post surgery but seriously, things just didn't register for me and ai thought they've were all over the top with their protective suggestions, none of it was practical, in my mind.. At that time my (then) relationship was chaotic and I felt anxious, for a time, before I just shut down. I would say that all of that was disorganized manifesting. A "pocket". Never though, did I feel depersonalized it as though I was out of my body or anything like that. I just don't experience things the way I have seen them described with acute dissociation. BTW, for fun and perspective --- I texted my therapist the other day to ask him to describe my attachment style and he replied "You're a beautifully resilient wonderful human being, that's your attachment style. Your attachment style is plastic and doesn't define you. Underneath it all, you'll see that you are secure and there are no absolutes except that you're a beautiful person." (That's how a real attachment therapist views all of us, without all the scorn and bitterness. ) Hahaha! Just a reminder to all of us, we've survived a lot and we are going to be ok.
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Post by dhali on Nov 20, 2019 20:08:57 GMT
The ability to watch yourself from the outside and disassociate from your emotions is actually a sign of emotional intelligence and something secures practice a lot of. It also allows you to view the other person that way and have empathy. Please cite your source for this. Disassociation is a disconnection and detachment from reality to ease internal trauma responses, such as anxiety or stress. It is not an empathetic response, and secures do not do this when being empathetic. Secures can see things from different perspectives to better understand them, but they don't do that by disconnecting from reality. What do you think meditation is? The ability to see your emotions and thoughts for what they are, and view it from a 3rd party perspective. And for me, empathy is to be able to get outside of my head and view things in terms of the other person. Also, the solve for anxiety is exactly that. Let it exist. Observe it, but don’t be concerned about it. It’ll pass. You can even look at it out of curiosity. That is not what an FA, a DA, or an AP does.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 20:14:00 GMT
Please cite your source for this. Disassociation is a disconnection and detachment from reality to ease internal trauma responses, such as anxiety or stress. It is not an empathetic response, and secures do not do this when being empathetic. Secures can see things from different perspectives to better understand them, but they don't do that by disconnecting from reality. What do you think meditation is? The ability to see your emotions and thoughts for what they are, and view it from a 3rd party perspective. And for me, empathy is to be able to get outside of my head and view things in terms of the other person. Also, the solve for anxiety is exactly that. Let it exist. Observe it, but don’t be concerned about it. It’ll pass. You can even look at it out of curiosity. That is not what an FA, a DA, or an AP does. That is distinct from the freeze state in the nervous system response. Meditation evokes a parasympathetic relaxed state not a trauma state. This thread is in the support forum, with the intent of understanding the freeze response of insecure attachment. You're mixing apples and oranges.
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Post by dhali on Nov 20, 2019 20:17:38 GMT
What I said was:
“ The ability to watch yourself from the outside and disassociate from your emotions is actually a sign of emotional intelligence and something secures practice a lot of. It also allows you to view the other person that way and have empathy.”
There is nothing about a freeze in there.
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Post by happyidiot on Nov 20, 2019 20:27:05 GMT
The problem here is that dhali is not understanding what the word disassociation means. It’s not mindfulness or looking at things objectively. It involves losing touch with your normal perceptions, emotions, etc. I have lots of experience with disassociation and also with meditation and mindfulness etc and can explain how each feels for me if you like. You might want to also Google disassociation, derealization and depersonalization.
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Post by anne12 on Nov 20, 2019 20:28:36 GMT
dhali If you are used to do a lot of meditation the problem can sometimes be this: The trap/the problem is: Who is watching the observer ? When fine tuning into an object, you can not see/feel yourself and your body. Jean Klein / John J. Prendergast A lot of SE therapists warns about this method
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