lilos
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Post by lilos on Dec 19, 2019 0:03:20 GMT
im not sure what I am after here- Maybe I am venting or just looking to process.
I spent so much time so disconnected. coming out of that while staying in a relationship is really hard. My relationship dynamic seems unique in that we are both pretty needless/wantless and if ever anything came up that the other wanted in general it always was fine- but since we are needless/wantless there was never a lot of asking for much- nothing substantial, nothing that might spark conflict. We coasted along in a pretty blah way for so many years but it felt good. Numbness feels kind of good. Living feels better though- highs are higher and lows are lower but it’s so much more vibrant over all.
I don’t want to be numb and I have wants. And I want to express them- I don’t however- want to be contested. I’m struggling with the wanting something and not being able to have it. It sometimes is easier to not want than to want and not get. Maybe that’s my entitlement. Maybe that’s more fear of loss. I know it’s childish but it’s also human. And I haven’t matured past this yet but I’m trying. Maybe humans never really do- how many people really ever like giving up things they want? I know it’s a lot of ego but I’m trying to figure this all out. Coming out of deep freeze is tough and confusing.
I have a lot of resistance to his thoughts, and feelings associated with my thoughts and feelings. I don’t like having to attend to him- I don’t think I know how when I am just starting to try to identify my own and then even feel comfortable expressing them bravely. I don’t like feeling like I have to defend them or explain myself when he doesn’t like them- when they don’t match his and he doesn’t understand. when I get vulnerable and show up as myself and that negatively effects him- I struggle to not get defensive as a way to protect this self I’m trying to hold onto. I know I don’t have to- he can’t take it from me and he doesn’t have to like it- but somehow I still get angry and try to defend it. I think I loose my ability to allow him to have an experience around that- which he is free to have. Maybe it just means I’m doing the same thing. I’m working on my thinking and feeling boundaries from both sides.
I am also having trouble with him needing me. I’m not sure if that’s appropriate or inappropriate. Part of the problem is that I am the only person available to meet his needs. So if he has a need- I’m it. But while I am really struggling to work through things in me and I can’t be there to meet his needs- and I say as much- he has no one else and this now takes a toll on our relationship- because he is expressing it in a passive, subtle, anxious way- but I can feel that energy and I pull away more and it only makes it worse. Maybe I should t be working so hard on me that I neglect him but part of my problem is how I show up in relationships- so ultimately I like to think the work I’m doing is for the good of the relationship even if it doesn’t feel that way on the surface.
Maybe he really can’t have me unavailable to meet his needs. There is no right or wrong here - I know having a relationship means in some ways to meet each other’s needs- but I don’t want to be the only thing someone has. And I actually sometimes find that I don’t want that to be my purpose. Or to have that be others purpose for me- I want my relationships to be a bearing witness to mine and their journey. A champion and a resources if and when and in the ways that We both can. Not asking for more than I need, not expecting the another person to have to meet it, and not offering more than I can give.
I am working to really build up my support network. And to really fill my own bucket first. To be 100% responsible for myself both in how I fulfill myself and how I get fulfillment outside of myself. A balance if you will so all my eggs aren’t in one basket. What if he isn’t doing the same?
I realize that was a lot of thoughts. And I know a lot of it reflect poorly on me- I most certainly have a lot of areas to grow. I may struggle to see or hold them still but I know they are there. Self awareness is a lot of work and I know sometimes I need an outside eye or a place to put it down.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 1:59:17 GMT
I'm curious, what needs are you talking about? Have you explored what you really want? Sometimes relationships end when they are outgrown, especially if they are undertaken in a compromised state, such as freeze. I don't think it's a bad thing to question it and discover if it fits any more, it's just a process.
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Dec 19, 2019 2:43:34 GMT
I'm curious, what needs are you talking about? Have you explored what you really want? Sometimes relationships end when they are outgrown, especially if they are undertaken in a compromised state, such as freeze. I don't think it's a bad thing to question it and discover if it fits any more, it's just a process. I think ultimately emotional ones. He often said he feels lonely. Said he doesn’t feel connected. But when I would ask specifically where he derives connection from so I could work on that he didn’t know. We did the love languages and all that but the problems I think are deeper than just actions and more a matter of freedom and security and childhood traumas. For me- probably him too but I can’t speak to that for him. In another situation I would easily say the relationship is outgrown and I would reconcile myself to that. We have been together 19 years and have two kids so the effort to work on myself and at least try to re-engage the relationship without my ego, my agenda, and my hang ups seems worth it. What I told my therapist is that if I leave this relationship then I’m going to do this work before I get into another one. I think it’s likely he would do the same but maybe not. Seems to me that we could do the work and try this one too. But I’m only one side of an equation I guess. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 3:00:45 GMT
I'm curious, what needs are you talking about? Have you explored what you really want? Sometimes relationships end when they are outgrown, especially if they are undertaken in a compromised state, such as freeze. I don't think it's a bad thing to question it and discover if it fits any more, it's just a process. I think ultimately emotional ones. He often said he feels lonely. Said he doesn’t feel connected. But when I would ask specifically where he derives connection from so I could work on that he didn’t know. We did the love languages and all that but the problems I think are deeper than just actions and more a matter of freedom and security and childhood traumas. For me- probably him too but I can’t speak to that for him. In another situation I would easily say the relationship is outgrown and I would reconcile myself to that. We have been together 19 years and have two kids so the effort to work on myself and at least try to re-engage the relationship without my ego, my agenda, and my hang ups seems worth it. What I told my therapist is that if I leave this relationship then I’m going to do this work before I get into another one. I think it’s likely he would do the same but maybe not. Seems to me that we could do the work and try this one too. But I’m only one side of an equation I guess. Yes, I understand. Is he willing to pursue growth for himself in the form of some therapy, or self work? I can tell you that SE and attachment work has clarified things a lot for me. Having two partners participating in solutions is critical for happiness and contentment in my opinion, but that isn't always the available option. I know that in or out of relationship I would be doing this work, and it's well worth it, the only way forward for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 16:20:21 GMT
lilos I was thinking more about this. I've been differentiating between shame and embarrassment. The reason why is because as I wake up through somatic therapy , from avoidance into more vulnerability and connection, I feel very uncomfortable. I do not feel unworthy, and I don't feel worthless and not deserving. I feel not safe, when I am vulnerable, to some extent. I feel that I will not be understood, and that negative messages I received about myself during my childhood will persist in the minds of the persons I have become open with,, or that I have reached out to for support. I am still working through this, but I do identify with the sense of feeling like Yes! I have emotional needs. And Yes! I believe they are reasonable. But Yes! I am not skilled at expressing and receiving, and I don't want to be thwarted in this growth by receiving an invalidating response. My needs were viewed negatively when I was a kid and I was mocked for them. So, I did become conditioned to numbing them and insulating and finding ways to meet them myself. I find life much better joining with intimate sources of love and support. But I feel raw and self protective and anticipate being misunderstood or blocked. So for me personally it is about stepping out into risk taking and building trust in my ability to reach out and also in the ability of others to meet me. I don't know if that resonates at all. But I do know that coming out of freeze is no joke, very disorienting and painful. I get that.
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Dec 19, 2019 18:29:24 GMT
I had this moment that was beautiful- a series really- of aha moments as corny as it sounds. Like I finally got it and I was going to be real and expose myself and my thoughts and stop trying to be liked but instead be me. To my husband and my closest friends at least- people I wanted to trust. Even if it was uncomfortable and scary, I could choose to be brave.
So I did.
The results in my close friendships has been amazing, the results in my more superficial ones too, my husband however- got more and more insecure and the more insecure he got the more I pulled back and it became a cycle.
I said to myself that I was going to show up and take the consequences of being me for whatever they are, and I would be ok. And I guess I’m getting them. My interpretation is he doesn’t like me as me, ultimately because it makes him feel unsafe. I get it- I totally empathize with him as someone who wanted security more than freedom. My insecurities and associated anxiety and avoidant tendencies- came out in a lot of ways so I’m not judging, I feel for both him and for the people who choose to share space with me. It’s hard on both sides.
But now- I don’t trust him. It’s not even that completely. Sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between can’t and won’t and what makes sense. Because if he’s going to freak out when I share my perspective and be unable to work through his own anxiety with out making his anxiousness mine to fix I guess it feels a little valid that I then no longer want to try to be emotionally intimate with him. I can’t do his emotional work. I feel like it could benefit him to find heathy and uplifting coping mechanisms. But I guess who am I to say what I think he needs. I guess I need him to do that or I feel like he’s spinning out with no where to land, and trying to control his environment (as in me) as a way to settle rather than look inward and find ways to settle himself. And I don’t like that. It feels icky.
I don’t know if that’s valid or not??? Am I just a horrible person just won’t compromise? Sometimes it feels that way. Like I’m trying too hard to hold onto a false sense of “me” and a good partner would let that go so he can have his sense of him. I keep saying why can’t we have both?
Sometimes I think I’m just too entitled. Maybe I don’t want to be in any really close relationship at all, because then I have accept the cost (because there always is one of some kind) and maybe it’s too high for me. I’m not sure yet. Again- I know this is immature but it’s also really hard. I don’t necessarily know how to work through it.
Also- I do have an SE therapist. Most recently we started EMDR work. Seeing where that goes.
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Post by mrob on Dec 19, 2019 18:52:38 GMT
Having been in two relationships where people have grown and overtaken me, it’s hard. The status quo is no longer good enough, but how to change? I have compassion for him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 19:05:50 GMT
I don't understand quite what you're saying about entitlement, as I think that evolution toward greater emotional health and secure relationships is a birthright and not an entitlement. I have a different experience in this relationship of growing emotionally, together, and I wouldn't stay if that weren't the case. I don't think any person is obliged to stay in a situation where their increasing emotional health is unsupported and met with increasing dysfunction. I would see entitlement more on the part of the person not adjusting (perhaps incapable, perhaps unwilling, no judgment necessarily) if they hope to continue on their unhealthy and insecure terms. It's a tough situation that can cause a feeling of being stuck. I think a lot of times if change can't happen bilaterally, the relationship deteriorates. As a natural result of arising incompatibility. It happens a lot but I accept that as a part of growth in people, not entitlement. It's just how I see it, having experienced the bilateral growth. It's very good for both of us but I would not impinge my happiness and emotional safety to remain in a situation that couldn't foster and support my blossoming as a person. I wouldn't want to cause pain in someone by becoming healthier, I would also want someone who could celebrate my growth instead of be intimidated by it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 19:24:12 GMT
Also lilos I can really relate to the beautiful experience of being vulnerable and true and receiving an affirming response from people around you. I'm very sorry that didn't happen with your partner. I know what it means to step into who you are and find that acceptance and encouragement, it means a lot to me to have found that myself. I hope that your processes are healing for you and that you find the answers that support you best and make you feel like you're in the right place, the right relationships. I wish all partners could come with us, some can't and don't. Some people stay in limited situations for their own reasons that others can't judge as right or wrong. I hope you find the right answers for YOU. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 19, 2019 22:44:03 GMT
I don't understand quite what you're saying about entitlement, as I think that evolution toward greater emotional health and secure relationships is a birthright and not an entitlement. In most cultures, it’s not. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 23:14:13 GMT
I don't understand quite what you're saying about entitlement, as I think that evolution toward greater emotional health and secure relationships is a birthright and not an entitlement. In most cultures, it’s not. I'm not talking about a cultural right. I am talking about a fundamental human right that a culture may or may not support. My culture is not my guidepost for what I believe, my spiritual life is. My culture has supported the oppression of segments of the human population since it s beginning. I do not. My culture said it's ok if I earn less per hour as a woman for the mere fact that I am a woman. I disagree. My culture still has areas of segregation and discrimination. I don't believe those oppressed are expressing entitlement to want to be treated equally. I also believe that a human's birthright is to find safety and security in their relationships, even if their culture says otherwise. I see it as a human birthright even if the right is denied, the denial doesn't change the inherent right of any human to evolution and emotional health. My culture denies the right in a lot of ways, it's woven into the fabric of my nation to marginalize women and minorities, and to disparage their needs and desires which differ from the class that holds the power. I'm not an activist but I'm not going to deny that I've had my rights trampled by my culture. And still, I think the rights are there. Culture has it wrong in many cases. |
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Dec 19, 2019 23:26:53 GMT
@inmourning I really do appreciate your take on things- your perspective does feel true for me in many aspects. Your assertion that when in a relationship with mutual growth even rings true to me as I have gone through a great degree of this process with a very dear friend and I can only imagine what that would be like with my partner. I have said in many ways that what I have with her is what I looking for in all my close relationships which is perhaps just true emotional intimacy. Seems so sad I don’t have that. Sometimes I think I am not capable but if I have just that with my friend then I know I must be.
When I speak on my entitlement i refer to I guess that I want what I want and I don’t want any complications. Maybe- I guess I don’t think that is true at my core but sometimes I feel like my problem is that I am too uncompromising. My husband tells me everything is on my terms. Maybe it is. Now that I’m starting to define what my terms are I maybe more rigid than is ideal. I think sometimes I am too caught up in it to know if that is real or my distorted thinking. I know I am codependent and I know I often have trouble trusting myself and my version of reality. I was told I was crazy a lot and really I was just a kid managing some huge emotional things alone. Even still I have a reflex that says I’m just crazy or tells me not to be so crazy or fears someone will see me and think I am. I know I’m in a process of evolution though and even if I’m sticking too hard now as I work through things it will lessen. And if it never does I’m ok with myself just as I am. I feel good about that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 23:36:30 GMT
@inmourning I really do appreciate your take on things- your perspective does feel true for me in many aspects. Your assertion that when in a relationship with mutual growth even rings true to me as I have gone through a great degree of this process with a very dear friend and I can only imagine what that would be like with my partner. I have said in many ways that what I have with her is what I looking for in all my close relationships which is perhaps just true emotional intimacy. Seems so sad I don’t have that. Sometimes I think I am not capable but if I have just that with my friend then I know I must be. When I speak on my entitlement i refer to I guess that I want what I want and I don’t want any complications. Maybe- I guess I don’t think that is true at my core but sometimes I feel like my problem is that I am too uncompromising. My husband tells me everything is on my terms. Maybe it is. Now that I’m starting to define what my terms are I maybe more rigid than is ideal. I think sometimes I am too caught up in it to know if that is real or my distorted thinking. I know I am codependent and I know I often have trouble trusting myself and my version of reality. I was told I was crazy a lot and really I was just a kid managing some huge emotional things alone. Even still I have a reflex that says I’m just crazy or tells me not to be so crazy or fears someone will see me and think I am. I know I’m in a process of evolution though and even if I’m sticking too hard now as I work through things it will lessen. And if it never does I’m ok with myself just as I am. I feel good about that. I love the way you have your back though. I do. We don't come out of all this perfect- we come out going the right direction lol. It's common I would think to swing the pendulum too hard and too far when we realize where we've missed out, or denied ourselves. Balance comes. Some relationships grew with me, some fell away. My bff and my partner are speaking the language of growth and awareness and insight into oneself. There is a celebration of this growth- it isn't resented. I always take steps forward with the risk of losing something but the bones get stronger, not weaker. That's what I love. I feel unbound. I love that feeling. And I get along best with people who are seeking freedom and peace for themselves and those they love. We are on the same wavelength and it's been beautiful. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 20, 2019 3:08:21 GMT
...and this is why I wonder why anyone would get married in this day and age. Changes happen, people move on. I think we’re the first generation removed enough from tradition and stigma to have to deal with any of this.
One thing I would say is that he probably doesn’t get the seriousness of what’s going on for you. If you can do some sort of couples counselling before this gets to a walk away stage for you, it might help you to reassess together. If you’re changing and he’s not, he will see it as on your terms and, like I did, become a sulky, confused bloke.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 3:26:06 GMT
...and this is why I wonder why anyone would get married in this day and age. Changes happen, people move on. I think we’re the first generation removed enough from tradition and stigma to have to deal with any of this. One thing I would say is that he probably doesn’t get the seriousness of what’s going on for you. If you can do some sort of couples counselling before this gets to a walk away stage for you, it might help you to reassess together. If you’re changing and he’s not, he will see it as on your terms and, like I did, become a sulky, confused bloke. I agree! And I think it's excellent advice. I got a lot of blowback from unhealthy people when I stepped into more health. I wish we could have gotten healthier together. But some people do grow , move on, become dissatisfied with a less-than life. It's here at midlife thst I am just now learning how to be healthy and true to myself and available. That's what I want to associate with now- people on that road. I've looked back and see people who haven't changed one iota and still create chaos in the exact same ways they used to blame on me. I don't want to be stuck like that. |
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