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Post by dhali on May 7, 2020 22:57:33 GMT
Btw, this seems as appropriate a place on this site as anywhere to put this... how do you have those tough internal dialog conversations in a non threatening, tactful way?
Begin with the phrase- this is the narrative I have in my head....
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Post by annieb on May 7, 2020 23:34:13 GMT
The last time this sort of thing came up with the forums, and a "technique" I've used it the past in dating, is that I "break up" with them in my mind, but don't tell them. So that I can have a level of detachment and stop judging them so harshly. Because, when I think of somebody as my friend, I think of them much more fondly and lovingly. I've yet to execute this method properly myself, as I mm 40 and happily single as well:)
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Post by mehere on May 8, 2020 20:47:12 GMT
Are you referring to the narrative for when I feel like running? Btw, this seems as appropriate a place on this site as anywhere to put this... how do you have those tough internal dialog conversations in a non threatening, tactful way? Begin with the phrase- this is the narrative I have in my head.... |
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Post by dhali on May 12, 2020 17:26:07 GMT
It’s not too important. I start my disagreements with people that way. To illustrate how I’m perceiving the issue. And being humble that I’m prob perceiving it wrongly, so please help me adjust my narrative.
Anyhow, based on what you’ve written, I’m dubious you’re da. You have way too much empathy. The examples you’ve put out there aren’t relationship material so I don’t see that as attachment style as much as bad choices. But that’s a thing too.
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Post by annieb on May 12, 2020 18:35:49 GMT
The OP could be FA, but I think as she moves away from DA she moves towards FA, but maybe without the validation seeking that FA has (she never moves into the AP quadrant). She could be a combination of FA and DA. But I’ve come to a conclusion that it doesn’t really matter. It’s all insecure attachment and their respective coping strategies and it’s all different sides of the same coin. And one can be secure in just about any other area of their lives and insecure in romantic relationships. And even that doesn’t matter. It’s all about internal self validation and maintaining that in different dynamics and if we can manage that then we are basically out of the woods, and although it takes an enormous amount of work and resources, it’s possible to achieve.
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Post by alexandra on May 12, 2020 19:51:21 GMT
Anyhow, based on what you’ve written, I’m dubious you’re da. You have way too much empathy. The examples you’ve put out there aren’t relationship material so I don’t see that as attachment style as much as bad choices. But that’s a thing too. DA don't lack empathy, pathological lack of empathy is personality disorder territory. Basically, any insecurely attached person can wholly disconnect from and lack empathy when triggered (protection mechanism), but I don't think that alone is a good gauge for which attachment style one has. It is still a spectrum dependent on the person. I know DAs who have plenty of empathy and those who really struggle in that area. I also know FAs who have low empathy. But for the most part, avoidants I'm friends with show far more empathy than avoidants I've dated, which I'm sure isn't a coincidence because, to your other point, romantic relationships are far more likely to be frequent triggers than friendships are. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 1:25:20 GMT
So the telling of my last 2 relationships was in response to the question i was asked about what if someone checks more boxes and i am trying a real relationship. Those were times I genuinely wanted that and was giving it a lot of effort. Ive been in a place now for a year where serious relationships make me nauseous and i have zero desire. Im wondering if its because of my DA tendencies and if I work on it will i want that again. I can be SA or DA. *I'm 39 and have never been in love Why am I entertaining what? And what isnt like anything you've come across? In my dating life now I basically run if they want more or first sign of a real issue and keep hurting people inadvertently. Even tho i tell them immediately that I only want to date casually. It doesn't feel good all around. I can usually spot an anxious attachment before we even meet or at most a first date and i dont proceed. Theres a pattern where pretty quickly most men I date seem to spiral or unravel with something that wasn't really or wasn't at all an issue at the beginning. Its very odd and im trying to figure it out. Also the ones i was in a relationship with the "disasters" are ones who made it past my initial screenings of the even bigger disasters and red flags in the dating pool and I start wondering if anyone is actually in a good place to date. Hence feeling judgy. My friends keep telling me to start a podcast with all of my dating stories I've had a lot of real doozies. By the way, I don’t actually see you having done anything strange with regards to that relationship you discussed. That guy is a disaster. I say that empathetically. And you’re more than fine asking someone you’re dating to show up as an adult, and to share some values. And if they refuse to examine where their values differ from yours, you should feel some sort of revulsion, imo. I don’t think that’s an avoidant thing. In fact, based on what you wrote, and how you handled the situation, that’s not avoidant. I’m more curious on what’s up with even entertaining half of this stuff? This isn’t the stuff of anything I’ve ever come across. I could empathize, but that doesn’t mean I’m there to save anyone. I don’t think an avoidant would have been even close to as empathetic as you were. You attract a person for a reason.. what’s that reason? hi, loving this thread with all the great advice and interesting stories. this post stood out most to me so i feel compelled to add two cents for food for thought. all of this sounds quite familiar to me and applies to myself, with dating doozies and such. if you're someone with alot of dating horror stories, I think it's telling of one's selection criteria and ability of what a good partner is. there is one thing about doing serious relationships that I think gets glossed over: people need to be willing and able to be in a serious relationship, and these 2 facets need different skills/traits/interests to support fully a serious relationship functioning. My insecure friends, including myself, all desire a serious relationship (willing) and they do try very hard to be in one, but I think lacks the ability to select for and be a good partner (ability). Oftentimes, we select the worst partner possible to try to have a serious relationship with, and of course it's a shitstorm, therefore reinforcing the insecurities and the narrative that serious relationships are hard work and terrible and have very little pay off. I've done the very same myself. I had to re-examine the kind of people I was attracted to, redefine what I consider is a good partner, and define for myself what kind of partner I want to be. For me it's like a holy trinity of definitions that has to work together to determine compatibility. The last - definition of what kind of partner I want/can be - is really really important because it defines and decides what I am willing and able to give, and then by definition, determines what kind of people and the needs they have I'm able to meet. it allows me to be honest with myself and other, and also allows me to be fair to what the other party is willing to give in response to that. For example, I had an ex tell me 2 years into the relationship that he is only willing to give me some money and time, and we will not be in a full life partnership; this is of course contrary to my idea and assumptions of what settling down into a serious relationship is. at that time, this all just resulted in tension, resentment and alot of triggered responses, because I had not clearly defined what I wanted, nor check with him nor check him out sufficiently. it is a good thing that you are leaving these relationships as dhali said - they don't sound healthy in the slightest, and not just in the attachment sense. but to paraphrase what dhali said, it's important then to re-examine deeply HOW you are dating and selecting because your current processes aren't working for you too well! |
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Post by mehere on May 13, 2020 2:26:57 GMT
Thank you for reading and commenting! I like how you break down the willingness for serious relationships combined with the skills. I witness mostly people who want one and don't seem to have the skills. I hope im not overshooting my healing here but i feel im the other way around. So far when i decide i do want a serious relationship i seem to exhibit skills its just that it's the wrong person. I for one am not willing right now. Also, if i meet crazies on a first date and identify that within 30 minutes and run for the hills I don't think its exactly fair to say my picker is broken. Ive also dated a slew of very nice people who I was not very attracted to or interested in or we didn't have enough in common. Some wanted more with me and began anxious behaviors and I bailed. However I did start thinking about this as i read what you typed regarding what you observe....when i meet people who seem to be pretty heavy in the wanting of someone serious phase.... im turned off. Its like I can smell the loneliness and desperation. Id rather someone who's happily single as I am, focused on other things and content with coming together as schedules allow to spend time. Id like to think if love happens for me Id be open to it im just really not holding my breath. With that ex, did you assume you both wanted life long partnership? I tell men immediately or before we even meet if its an app match what I'm looking for. Im a very open book. Very insightful thoughts, thank you. Do you mind if i ask where you are currently at with relationships/dating/refraining? So the telling of my last 2 relationships was in response to the question i was asked about what if someone checks more boxes and i am trying a real relationship. Those were times I genuinely wanted that and was giving it a lot of effort. Ive been in a place now for a year where serious relationships make me nauseous and i have zero desire. Im wondering if its because of my DA tendencies and if I work on it will i want that again. I can be SA or DA. *I'm 39 and have never been in love Why am I entertaining what? And what isnt like anything you've come across? In my dating life now I basically run if they want more or first sign of a real issue and keep hurting people inadvertently. Even tho i tell them immediately that I only want to date casually. It doesn't feel good all around. I can usually spot an anxious attachment before we even meet or at most a first date and i dont proceed. Theres a pattern where pretty quickly most men I date seem to spiral or unravel with something that wasn't really or wasn't at all an issue at the beginning. Its very odd and im trying to figure it out. Also the ones i was in a relationship with the "disasters" are ones who made it past my initial screenings of the even bigger disasters and red flags in the dating pool and I start wondering if anyone is actually in a good place to date. Hence feeling judgy. My friends keep telling me to start a podcast with all of my dating stories I've had a lot of real doozies. hi, loving this thread with all the great advice and interesting stories. this post stood out most to me so i feel compelled to add two cents for food for thought. all of this sounds quite familiar to me and applies to myself, with dating doozies and such. if you're someone with alot of dating horror stories, I think it's telling of one's selection criteria and ability of what a good partner is. there is one thing about doing serious relationships that I think gets glossed over: people need to be willing and able to be in a serious relationship, and these 2 facets need different skills/traits/interests to support fully a serious relationship functioning. My insecure friends, including myself, all desire a serious relationship (willing) and they do try very hard to be in one, but I think lacks the ability to select for and be a good partner (ability). Oftentimes, we select the worst partner possible to try to have a serious relationship with, and of course it's a shitstorm, therefore reinforcing the insecurities and the narrative that serious relationships are hard work and terrible and have very little pay off. I've done the very same myself. I had to re-examine the kind of people I was attracted to, redefine what I consider is a good partner, and define for myself what kind of partner I want to be. For me it's like a holy trinity of definitions that has to work together to determine compatibility. The last - definition of what kind of partner I want/can be - is really really important because it defines and decides what I am willing and able to give, and then by definition, determines what kind of people and the needs they have I'm able to meet. it allows me to be honest with myself and other, and also allows me to be fair to what the other party is willing to give in response to that. For example, I had an ex tell me 2 years into the relationship that he is only willing to give me some money and time, and we will not be in a full life partnership; this is of course contrary to my idea and assumptions of what settling down into a serious relationship is. at that time, this all just resulted in tension, resentment and alot of triggered responses, because I had not clearly defined what I wanted, nor check with him nor check him out sufficiently. it is a good thing that you are leaving these relationships as dhali said - they don't sound healthy in the slightest, and not just in the attachment sense. but to paraphrase what dhali said, it's important then to re-examine deeply HOW you are dating and selecting because your current processes aren't working for you too well! |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 13:20:46 GMT
I've just had a couple of drinks so might be rambling here!
There's quite alot of discussion on these boards on how insecures are generally turned off/bored/disinterested in those who seem boring/want a serious relationship. You might call it loneliness and desperation, but might it be that they are just clear on what they want? I'm not disagreeing with you though.. I've met those who are only interested in me as a potential partner and not as a person, and that completely turns me off (because I don't feel seen as an individual). I've realised it's so hard to differentiate these things because it's so subjective sometimes! Also, I don't think that your picker is that broken that you'd pick someone who is completely unhealthy, BUT it might not be completely oriented towards those who are actually suitable for settling down in a secure, serious, stable, interdependent relationship, if that is something that you are looking for.
with that ex, we both said that we wanted to settle down into a peaceful life with a partner. turns out we define what and how that looks like very differently. So these days, i make sure I understand the definition and operationalization of any technical terms that might be thrown around (e.g., partner, marriage, commitment, dating, interdependence) so that no such misunderstandings can happen again. It is also why i think very carefully about defining the conditions i can provide/receive.
I'm currently in a secure serious relationship with someone we suspect was a DA (he doesn't know anything about attachment style pre-me and we just discussed that when we first started dating). We've both moved towards secure independently i.e., before we met each other, and when we met we've worked through alot of our own issues and separately decided that we did want a stable, secure, loving life partnership and that is what we looked for. We've been together a year now.
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Post by mehere on May 14, 2020 20:45:10 GMT
Listened to a video on object constancy and cant say i resonated with it at all. It talks about intense despair and fear and irrational acting out when for example a partner goes out of town. A lack of context of a relationship. Ive never experienced anything like what was described an intense fear of abandonment that if partner is out of sight they may never return. It sounds awful. Interesting to know what it is now tho! Thank you so much for sharing all of that. Would you mind explaining "object constancy"? I'm not familiar. Something ive done which helps in the short term at least is making list of the man's positive qualities and focusing on those. Its a tug of war tho as my mind just wants to keep going with reasons we aren't compatible or why its not working and won't work. I'll likely need to seek coaching next time im "in it" with someone but hoping to do as much work while single as i can. I honestly never regret ending it a single time tho. I feel relieved and happy and never miss them or try to get them back. I feel sad and disappointed but ready to move on. I end it with eyes wide open not out of lashing out or over reacting or feeling triggered. I really think of them as lovely but for someone else. So I'm not sure. I think you don’t miss them because of the negative projections. It’s a relief that they are gone obviously “with all their negative shit”, and you can thrive now. I guess it’s a fallacy of sorts. The object constancy is a term I stumbled on on my research on my last DA (narcissist), which is basically is an ability to perceive and believe that a relationship is intact despite the presence of setbacks and conflict. This sort of thing is what a child develops when they are a toddler, but also later. That despite them throwing a tantrum or pooping their pants, their parents are still there. And of course if a person has a broken family or a parent was absent, alcoholic, etc., a child does not develop this, and instead they develop fear of abandonment. When I read online then indeed making lists of positives and positive scrapbook helped some people to develop object constancy. Apparently one can develop this in adulthood with proper therapy. One thing that hinders this whole thing in my opinion is that while with friends and family this is easier to develop as you know they will pretty much always be there on the periphery even if you don’t talk to them, but with romantic relationships at least I find that my own fear of abandonment is a lot more acute, and I think it’s because of the finality of a potential breakup. |
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Post by annieb on May 14, 2020 21:28:41 GMT
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Post by alexandra on May 15, 2020 1:46:13 GMT
mehere, but have you ever experienced that when someone has left, they're suddenly out of sight out of mind and you feel like you don't really care while they're gone? I think object constancy for someone who tends anxious would be what you describe, their nervous system freaks out because they lack object constancy yet have a healthy fear of abandonment. An avoidant person, with a nervous system that shuts down, would be more likely to experience that constancy disconnection as a loss of feelings, as their primary conscious fear is engulfment.
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Post by mehere on May 15, 2020 16:29:45 GMT
So my primary attachment style is secure.. But I have to answer quiz questions thinking back to when I'm actually willing to be in a serious relationship which I'm not currently. And my 2ndary is DA. I'm working on the DA stuff and treating it as primary since I have zero desire currently to commit. I just generally don't get attached to anyone romantically. I can have a great time with someone even over months but also not care much if I ever see them again. Family, friends, pets Id be upset tho. Not sure how to relate that to object constancy. mehere, but have you ever experienced that when someone has left, they're suddenly out of sight out of mind and you feel like you don't really care while they're gone? I think object constancy for someone who tends anxious would be what you describe, their nervous system freaks out because they lack object constancy yet have a healthy fear of abandonment. An avoidant person, with a nervous system that shuts down, would be more likely to experience that constancy disconnection as a loss of feelings, as their primary conscious fear is engulfment. |
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Post by mehere on May 15, 2020 16:42:35 GMT
I don't see people as all good or all bad and i don't get mad hardly ever or argue or engage in fights. If someone is continually trying to fight with me I'll simply end the relationship tho. Ive been around that enough in my life I'm not willing to fight with anyone. Even if i end things with someone its not hasty and is well thought out and whatever is happening is a genuine deal breaker for me. Im able to understand they are a good person and would probably make a great partner for someone else and can appreciate our time together and know they didn't mistreat me its just not a match. I do however tend towards reasons its not working and when I start that cycle the list does help. Thats also why for a year now I'm not even willing to try a serious relationship. I can feel turned off and annoyed whether I'm with them or not tho. Actually its when im with them that I'll feel it the most if its really not working. |
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Post by alexandra on May 15, 2020 18:26:44 GMT
So my primary attachment style is secure.. But I have to answer quiz questions thinking back to when I'm actually willing to be in a serious relationship which I'm not currently. And my 2ndary is DA. I'm working on the DA stuff and treating it as primary since I have zero desire currently to commit. Did you take the Poole Heller test? If so, the percentage don't necessarily translate the way you think of as primary. Best I can tell, if you score under about a 60% secure and the majority of the leftover amounts in another style, let's say 30% DA, then your primary style is actually DA. If you score in quarters, about 20-30% in each style including secure, that's actually typical of FA. If you're approximately 60%+ in secure, then you actually have a secure attachment style. |
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