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Post by annieb on Jul 1, 2020 19:24:34 GMT
He is projecting a lot. Why he does that, it’s his way of maintaining control over the situation. Why he needs control, beats me, some people need to have the illusion of control over others, it’s an insecure attachment thing. Most of us FAs DAs and APs have been there at one point or another, but we all learn it’s annoying and not nice to the other person. I think you’ve shown him where your boundaries lie and he enjoys pushing them as that proves to him he is in control. The big test for you would be to let this one go and block him. This person trust me will be far from an attachment figure if you choose you. You will be relieved beyond belief, when this “friend” is no longer meddling around your life and thoughts.
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 1, 2020 19:39:39 GMT
annieb Projecting. How do you mean? because these were my thoughts as well. The control...I don't ever remember him being like this when we were together because I think I (inadvertently) had the control in our relationship (he was triggered anxious with me). He was always trying to prove to me we were good together long term, and I had doubts but never shared them, so I was always making excuses. I was very unaware back then of this dynamic. He started off doing the same thing in this situation...talking about how well we got along and how he had qualities that worked well with me. It was as soon as I was honest and open with him that he stopped being sincere. The crazy thing is that I got rid of him a long time ago and never thought of him. I only did in terms of understanding myself and what worked well (or didn't) for me. The maturity and honesty in his initial email was so starkly different that I was curious and more open. It's been so long so I wasn't so guarded. I actually didn't have enough boundaries.
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Post by amber on Jul 1, 2020 22:14:45 GMT
This guy sounds nuts to me
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 2, 2020 0:22:07 GMT
This guy sounds nuts to me Probably. I feel nuts for falling for it, again. But I didn't go after him or confess any feelings or tell him I think we should date again. I'm struggling with it and seem to think if I can understand what happened, I can deal with it better.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jul 2, 2020 2:00:30 GMT
This guy sounds nuts to me Probably. I feel nuts for falling for it, again. But I didn't go after him or confess any feelings or tell him I think we should date again. I'm struggling with it and seem to think if I can understand what happened, I can deal with it better. I wouldn't be hard on yourself Alice tbh. The guy made an effort to contact you, showing some sort of reflection. And you kindly, reciprocated, and gave a chance. When someone is legitimately seeking forgiveness and outlining their mistakes and issues, and makes an effort to reconcile, and shows that they have made a genuine effort to change, (which is how he seemingly came across) I would be hard pressed not to accept unless they were a complete and utter scumbag tbh, personally. If it was minor stuff, we're all human at the end of the day. He also shows "after years", he maybe has tried internally to quantify his behaviour, maybe tried to correct it best he could and this is the result? (was he hoping for a "fantasy moment" and you just profess your undying love for him or bust? One has to wonder if this is part of the equation as well, you never reciprocated, he kept prodding, you never fully took the bait, and he's backed off? Could come across as that without knowing details, again still insecure attachment, instead of being sincere and not concerned with "power games") However he still displays "blurred boundaries" and poor communication skills. There is some sort of "ceding of power" thing going on here, maybe he feels "guilt/shame" in letting his guard down a bit? Hence the withdrawal and the "the ball is in your court now to initiate contact, after I have bothered to contact you and be remotely vulnerable" scenario. Which is insecure in nature. You simply do not act like that when secure, because you simply don't care about the "power games", it's not part of the equation. Depends what he told you of course. That's how I read it for what it's worth.
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Post by annieb on Jul 2, 2020 6:58:14 GMT
annieb Projecting. How do you mean? because these were my thoughts as well. The control...I don't ever remember him being like this when we were together because I think I (inadvertently) had the control in our relationship (he was triggered anxious with me). He was always trying to prove to me we were good together long term, and I had doubts but never shared them, so I was always making excuses. I was very unaware back then of this dynamic. He started off doing the same thing in this situation...talking about how well we got along and how he had qualities that worked well with me. It was as soon as I was honest and open with him that he stopped being sincere. The crazy thing is that I got rid of him a long time ago and never thought of him. I only did in terms of understanding myself and what worked well (or didn't) for me. The maturity and honesty in his initial email was so starkly different that I was curious and more open. It's been so long so I wasn't so guarded. I actually didn't have enough boundaries. In short he is projecting his own self hatred onto you so he doesn’t have to own it. He is describing himself, but making it out to be you. Narcissists do this as a coping strategy. So that they can instead hate another person for hating them sort of thing. If you are sincere with this kind of person, it doesn’t fit their narrative, so they will likely fade out, or change, or lie or change the course. I’m not quite sure why they do this and why they insist on this behavior, but it’s likely the only way he know how to act. As others have described this behavior is totally delusional. People like yourself get suckered in because of our own shaky self image. And our own self hatred, they tap into that very manipulatively. By saying you’re the only one who figured him out. Wrong. You’re the only one who didn’t dump him the minute you figured out this guy is loony tunes, because you were wrapped up in your own stuff.
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Post by mrob on Jul 2, 2020 10:26:08 GMT
I think this is a long time distillation of his thinking. A lot of “what ifs” and too much time to oneself. I think you’ve hit it on the head. You’re it..... his phantom ex.
I’ve thought most of those things about one person in particular. Thank goodness most of it has long gone, but I’d never poke my head into her life, let alone take liberties like this.
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Post by lonewolf on Jul 3, 2020 7:11:27 GMT
I am really sorry that it feels awful! I can empathize with you. What a rough dynamic and situation! It sounds like mainly you just listened to him and were passive, while holding boundaries. In other words you did nothing wrong and were healthy. You directed your own life but not his. I don't know much about you just from your post but you sound like a reasonable woman who commands respect for herself. Therefore, the situation is unfair and you feel wronged.
I can say as an FA that one thing I am terrified of when getting close to someone is that I will hurt them. It sounds like this may have happened to you, too. As you become hurt, he realizes he has hurt you and wants to pull away. But he also desires closeness and few people will give it. Therefore, he is now afraid of losing you and instigates being close again. Hence the crazy-making behavior. It is really this dynamic of push-pull that hurts the other person, but few people understand that or are able to sit with their feelings and modify their behavior.
I read "Codependent No More" and some parts of this reminded me of codependency. I would suggest you look up some info about codependency as well as attachment theory.
Another thing was, you didn't say much about your feelings for him. I didn't read anything about his positive qualities. Therefore if I were you, I would really reconsider the relationship. I think your analysis of the push-pull is spot-on "I’m also frustrated that he pushed me away…because HE felt uncomfortable because I know him too well? Instead of seeing that as an asset, he saw it as a liability (his word)." You answered your own question in there--he sees closeness as a liability. I have described it as playing a game you can't win.
You are justified in your anger but I would suggest you not internalize it. You reconnected with an old friend who hadn't changed. Adjust your frame of mind because you're not at fault here.
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 4, 2020 2:27:13 GMT
In short he is projecting his own self hatred onto you so he doesn’t have to own it. He is describing himself, but making it out to be you. Narcissists do this as a coping strategy. So that they can instead hate another person for hating them sort of thing. If you are sincere with this kind of person, it doesn’t fit their narrative, so they will likely fade out, or change, or lie or change the course. I’m not quite sure why they do this and why they insist on this behavior, but it’s likely the only way he know how to act. As others have described this behavior is totally delusional. People like yourself get suckered in because of our own shaky self image. And our own self hatred, they tap into that very manipulatively. By saying you’re the only one who figured him out. Wrong. You’re the only one who didn’t dump him the minute you figured out this guy is loony tunes, because you were wrapped up in your own stuff. Thanks for your perspective annieb. I don't think my ex is a narcissist though. I had a situation with a true narcissist and I know what that kind of situation feels like. I think when our AP side rears its ugly head, we assume the other person is out to get us and does things to us purposely. This can be a confusion for us FAs. I have been accused of purposely bread crumbing, etc. and I never ever hurt anyone or manipulated them purposely. I was only reacting to being overwhelmed by another person's emotions. I can admit, for a bit, I considered narcissism with this particular ex, and I was really mad. This was my AP side flaring up. But in reality, he is dealing with this own issues and unable to be vulnerable so he is reacting. That doesn't mean I excuse his behavior or have to let it go on in my life. I sense your anger and can only guess you have had narcissists in your life, which is horrible, and I'm sorry for that. I also was angry for quite awhile after and reacted the same way to anyone who put up with any kind of crap from any person and would take out my anger on them, essentially, taking it out on myself as I was angry with myself for putting up with it to begin with. But not everyone's situation was like mine. I still do advocate for people to walk when someone is unstable or inconsistent or whose actions are not matching up with their words. But I don't assume that person's behavior is manipulative and purposeful. I still am trying to figure this one out.
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 4, 2020 4:47:42 GMT
I wouldn't be hard on yourself Alice tbh. The guy made an effort to contact you, showing some sort of reflection. And you kindly, reciprocated, and gave a chance. When someone is legitimately seeking forgiveness and outlining their mistakes and issues, and makes an effort to reconcile, and shows that they have made a genuine effort to change, (which is how he seemingly came across) I would be hard pressed not to accept unless they were a complete and utter scumbag tbh, personally. If it was minor stuff, we're all human at the end of the day. He also shows "after years", he maybe has tried internally to quantify his behaviour, maybe tried to correct it best he could and this is the result? (was he hoping for a "fantasy moment" and you just profess your undying love for him or bust? One has to wonder if this is part of the equation as well, you never reciprocated, he kept prodding, you never fully took the bait, and he's backed off? Could come across as that without knowing details, again still insecure attachment, instead of being sincere and not concerned with "power games") However he still displays "blurred boundaries" and poor communication skills. There is some sort of "ceding of power" thing going on here, maybe he feels "guilt/shame" in letting his guard down a bit? Hence the withdrawal and the "the ball is in your court now to initiate contact, after I have bothered to contact you and be remotely vulnerable" scenario. Which is insecure in nature. You simply do not act like that when secure, because you simply don't care about the "power games", it's not part of the equation. Depends what he told you of course. That's how I read it for what it's worth. For one, thanks for your kindness. I AM being pretty hard on myself because it's take two with him...though many many years later. His initial email to me was...so sincere and very different for him. But at some point it flipped back to how he was after we broke up many years ago. And it threw me for a loop. I do think he gets defensive with me. I wonder if he thinks he's not good enough for me. But then part of me thinks he likes that chase. He doesn't like to be the bad guy. That is a huge thing for him. He tried to defend himself years ago with me about not being the bad guy, but he never took responsibility for what he did, so I did not accept anything he said. This recent thing was different, and he took responsibility. What I think happened is he started to act the same way and had to cover it up and turn it around on me. It's disappointing that his ego is the most important thing. I think actually he sensed some reciprocation (I got emotional once when we discussed some things from the past) and lost interest and so he had to emphasize over and over that he had no intentions after he clearly did. I've become more secure since we last dated. I'm wondering now if he is AP and he didn't have to do enough to win me over. I never proclaimed some undying love for him, but I would say he sensed my openness and availability. I do like your version better though. I thought about it for awhile. It would be less hurtful.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jul 4, 2020 6:27:03 GMT
I wouldn't be hard on yourself Alice tbh. The guy made an effort to contact you, showing some sort of reflection. And you kindly, reciprocated, and gave a chance. When someone is legitimately seeking forgiveness and outlining their mistakes and issues, and makes an effort to reconcile, and shows that they have made a genuine effort to change, (which is how he seemingly came across) I would be hard pressed not to accept unless they were a complete and utter scumbag tbh, personally. If it was minor stuff, we're all human at the end of the day. He also shows "after years", he maybe has tried internally to quantify his behaviour, maybe tried to correct it best he could and this is the result? (was he hoping for a "fantasy moment" and you just profess your undying love for him or bust? One has to wonder if this is part of the equation as well, you never reciprocated, he kept prodding, you never fully took the bait, and he's backed off? Could come across as that without knowing details, again still insecure attachment, instead of being sincere and not concerned with "power games") However he still displays "blurred boundaries" and poor communication skills. There is some sort of "ceding of power" thing going on here, maybe he feels "guilt/shame" in letting his guard down a bit? Hence the withdrawal and the "the ball is in your court now to initiate contact, after I have bothered to contact you and be remotely vulnerable" scenario. Which is insecure in nature. You simply do not act like that when secure, because you simply don't care about the "power games", it's not part of the equation. Depends what he told you of course. That's how I read it for what it's worth. For one, thanks for your kindness. I AM being pretty hard on myself because it's take two with him...though many many years later. His initial email to me was...so sincere and very different for him. But at some point it flipped back to how he was after we broke up many years ago. And it threw me for a loop. I do think he gets defensive with me. I wonder if he thinks he's not good enough for me. But then part of me thinks he likes that chase. He doesn't like to be the bad guy. That is a huge thing for him. He tried to defend himself years ago with me about not being the bad guy, but he never took responsibility for what he did, so I did not accept anything he said. This recent thing was different, and he took responsibility. What I think happened is he started to act the same way and had to cover it up and turn it around on me. It's disappointing that his ego is the most important thing. I think actually he sensed some reciprocation (I got emotional once when we discussed some things from the past) and lost interest and so he had to emphasize over and over that he had no intentions after he clearly did. I've become more secure since we last dated. I'm wondering now if he is AP and he didn't have to do enough to win me over. I never proclaimed some undying love for him, but I would say he sensed my openness and availability. I do like your version better though. I thought about it for awhile. It would be less hurtful. No problems Alice. Look hard to diagnose who he is or what his motivations truly are, can only surmise at best tbh, without literally being there. It's just very hard. If he's a bad influence on your life, then he may not be worth having around, that is literally the long and short of it. There truly is no "push-pull" in a healthy secure relationship, it just doesn't happen. You literally sit and discuss the issues at hand openly, honestly and without any fear of anything. Like I say, from your wording he is seemingly screwing around a bit with who has the "perceived power" as the relationship moves forward. You just seriously want to be having a laugh and fun, not worrying who has "the power". Life's too short. It's good you gave him a chance. I guess you can be friends, see what he says over time, if he doesn't upset you too much that is. You want to surround yourself with people who lift you up, not bring you down. All the best.
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 6, 2020 5:06:10 GMT
I can say as an FA that one thing I am terrified of when getting close to someone is that I will hurt them. It sounds like this may have happened to you, too. As you become hurt, he realizes he has hurt you and wants to pull away. But he also desires closeness and few people will give it. Therefore, he is now afraid of losing you and instigates being close again. Hence the crazy-making behavior. It is really this dynamic of push-pull that hurts the other person, but few people understand that or are able to sit with their feelings and modify their behavior. This is one possibility I thought of also. He flipped after one conversation where I was more vulnerable with him about the past and how it hurt me. I'm not entirely sure. Part of me thinks the phantom ex aspect is at play also where he is just lonely and enjoyed the fantasy and longing more than the real thing.
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Post by annieb on Jul 8, 2020 14:39:12 GMT
In short he is projecting his own self hatred onto you so he doesn’t have to own it. He is describing himself, but making it out to be you. Narcissists do this as a coping strategy. So that they can instead hate another person for hating them sort of thing. If you are sincere with this kind of person, it doesn’t fit their narrative, so they will likely fade out, or change, or lie or change the course. I’m not quite sure why they do this and why they insist on this behavior, but it’s likely the only way he know how to act. As others have described this behavior is totally delusional. People like yourself get suckered in because of our own shaky self image. And our own self hatred, they tap into that very manipulatively. By saying you’re the only one who figured him out. Wrong. You’re the only one who didn’t dump him the minute you figured out this guy is loony tunes, because you were wrapped up in your own stuff. Thanks for your perspective annieb. I don't think my ex is a narcissist though. I had a situation with a true narcissist and I know what that kind of situation feels like. I think when our AP side rears its ugly head, we assume the other person is out to get us and does things to us purposely. This can be a confusion for us FAs. I have been accused of purposely bread crumbing, etc. and I never ever hurt anyone or manipulated them purposely. I was only reacting to being overwhelmed by another person's emotions. I can admit, for a bit, I considered narcissism with this particular ex, and I was really mad. This was my AP side flaring up. But in reality, he is dealing with this own issues and unable to be vulnerable so he is reacting. That doesn't mean I excuse his behavior or have to let it go on in my life. I sense your anger and can only guess you have had narcissists in your life, which is horrible, and I'm sorry for that. I also was angry for quite awhile after and reacted the same way to anyone who put up with any kind of crap from any person and would take out my anger on them, essentially, taking it out on myself as I was angry with myself for putting up with it to begin with. But not everyone's situation was like mine. I still do advocate for people to walk when someone is unstable or inconsistent or whose actions are not matching up with their words. But I don't assume that person's behavior is manipulative and purposeful. I still am trying to figure this one out. Thanks, alice! I’m most certainly affected by narcissists in my life and I am most definitely angry at them and what they do to others. And if I sense a narcissistic abuse, I get extremely angry and vigilant. It’s definitely a man FA/ AP thing for me. I do not think that manipulation has to be purposeful and a lot of these people manipulate almost unconsciously. I understand they are the way they are because of their past abuse. I’m sorry if my advice came a cross as angry and personal. I guess I was really trying to get my point accross:)
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 12, 2020 1:57:22 GMT
I think this is a long time distillation of his thinking. A lot of “what ifs” and too much time to oneself. I think you’ve hit it on the head. You’re it..... his phantom ex. I’ve thought most of those things about one person in particular. Thank goodness most of it has long gone, but I’d never poke my head into her life, let alone take liberties like this. Thank you, I appreciate that you are more considerate of the feelings of others. Do you have an opinion on what happened after he acted on that distillation? I feel like he was turned off...and the way he spoke, part of it may have been him feeling bad about himself and the way he acted with me in the past. I'm not certain, but I was beyond over him, and the way he triggered me was definitely a liberty he should not have taken.
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Post by mrob on Jul 12, 2020 8:04:48 GMT
I think you experienced a mini cycle. Typical FA behaviour. Anxious rumination, then it becomes all real, then running for the hills. One thing I would say, alice is that your triggers are your responsibility, not his. For example, I don’t follow my phantom ex’s FB page. There was one woman who used to ring me In the middle of the night drunk. I blocked her number after asking her not to. It’s up to me to know what affects me and to protect myself. I’m not passive in any of this. My attachment style is a contributor to a dynamic.
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