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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 13:30:08 GMT
So basically this is similar to what Kittygirl said the other day regarding having the "defences" already in place from childhood and it feeling familiar, and you have the ability to navigate moreso? Would that be an apt description/relevant? Thais Gibson has mentioned F-A's can feel trapped, helpless to the thought of "love". Obviously, I'm probably not the one to answer this! But I know -- unless you have one foot out the door like ALL of my past exes have - and there was TONS of passion, I am inclined to feel instantly smothered, trapped, and miserable (like depressed that my life is over kind of feeling). It's dread. I feel "locked in" - it's really awful. 2 long-term relationships were with men who were very abusive. 1 was with a covert narcissist, who was always "deciding" whether he liked me, and left me for another woman (unfortunately, he and I have a kid together). And a long-term relationship with a guy who was emotionally unavailable (couldn't even tell me he loved me) and cheated! We were together SEVEN YEARS. I've been through A LOT of pain. And I'm in therapy making peace with men, and healing the relationship with my father (and making progress). I recently told my therapist, I want someone who feels cozy to me. Where every min of the relationship isn't about sex and desire and passion. Where it's like friends but with sex and intimacy. But ultimately I have a young girl and want a feeling of family. I've always wanted a family. But if someone comes close to that, it's like my eyeballs swirl into this messed up world of like OMG his hair, his weight, what if this? And I imagine all the ways I'll feel "stuck" with this person and his habits and haircut/weight, way of dressing/voice, etc. Often, that's the part people see of me (the last paragraph) and think I'm a narcissist or really cruel or "super picky" but it's not about that. It's about terror. That's as far as I've got. |
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Post by annieb on Jul 21, 2020 14:16:31 GMT
I’m sure there is some deactivation going on etc etc., but, this is a man you e never met, correct? So this is a complete fantasy for him, to “wish you were here”. I think this may be a fantasy bond for both of you. I would wait to make any decisions until you’ve occupied the same space.
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Post by anne12 on Jul 21, 2020 14:16:56 GMT
seeking What type of therapist are you seeing ? Does she know about desorganised attatchment style and chok trauma to work with this ? (You can still have a mix) It is recommended that the therapist works with the instinktive level first before anything else. When you are in survival mode (fight, flight,freeze) you can't bond properly - you are busy trying to survive. This guy could be wrong for you ....Have you read the dating thread ? Trusting your own intuition can be difficult for someone with some desorganised attatchment style because your Body can cheat on you .. Theres some tips in the thread about what you can do.
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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 15:51:00 GMT
seeking What type of therapist are you seeing ? Does she know about desorganised attatchment style and chok trauma to work with this ? (You can still have a mix) It is recommended that the therapist works with the instinktive level first before anything else. When you are in survival mode (fight, flight,freeze) you can't bond properly - you are busy trying to survive. This guy could be wrong for you ....Have you read the dating thread ? Trusting your own intuition can be difficult for someone with some desorganised attatchment style because your Body can cheat on you .. Theres some tips in the thread about what you can do. She's a somatic experiencing practitioner who works with shock trauma and attachment. |
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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 15:52:05 GMT
I’m sure there is some deactivation going on etc etc., but, this is a man you e never met, correct? So this is a complete fantasy for him, to “wish you were here”. I think this may be a fantasy bond for both of you. I would wait to make any decisions until you’ve occupied the same space. Right, that has been my concern. "Wish you were here" is generally reserved for someone you've ACTUALLY MET. It was a bit of a red flag for me. As well "I miss our conversations." We had one. |
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Post by annieb on Jul 21, 2020 16:35:10 GMT
I’m sure there is some deactivation going on etc etc., but, this is a man you e never met, correct? So this is a complete fantasy for him, to “wish you were here”. I think this may be a fantasy bond for both of you. I would wait to make any decisions until you’ve occupied the same space. Right, that has been my concern. "Wish you were here" is generally reserved for someone you've ACTUALLY MET. It was a bit of a red flag for me. As well "I miss our conversations." We had one. Right, he sounds like he is got carried away. Like you say it’s more about him than about you. I don’t really have any advice for people like that, other than watch his behavior over time. Over time, say six months or so you will see the pattern reveal itself and if it’s something you can live with. It’s probably ok. It’s not a crime to fantasize and get carried away. But if this continues in reality and after real life meetings are regularly happening, and he still is unable to get to know you for you, I would bounce. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jul 22, 2020 1:07:03 GMT
So basically this is similar to what Kittygirl said the other day regarding having the "defences" already in place from childhood and it feeling familiar, and you have the ability to navigate moreso? Would that be an apt description/relevant? Thais Gibson has mentioned F-A's can feel trapped, helpless to the thought of "love". Obviously, I'm probably not the one to answer this! But I know -- unless you have one foot out the door like ALL of my past exes have - and there was TONS of passion, I am inclined to feel instantly smothered, trapped, and miserable (like depressed that my life is over kind of feeling). It's dread. I feel "locked in" - it's really awful. 2 long-term relationships were with men who were very abusive. 1 was with a covert narcissist, who was always "deciding" whether he liked me, and left me for another woman (unfortunately, he and I have a kid together). And a long-term relationship with a guy who was emotionally unavailable (couldn't even tell me he loved me) and cheated! We were together SEVEN YEARS. I've been through A LOT of pain. And I'm in therapy making peace with men, and healing the relationship with my father (and making progress). I recently told my therapist, I want someone who feels cozy to me. Where every min of the relationship isn't about sex and desire and passion. Where it's like friends but with sex and intimacy. But ultimately I have a young girl and want a feeling of family. I've always wanted a family. But if someone comes close to that, it's like my eyeballs swirl into this messed up world of like OMG his hair, his weight, what if this? And I imagine all the ways I'll feel "stuck" with this person and his habits and haircut/weight, way of dressing/voice, etc. Often, that's the part people see of me (the last paragraph) and think I'm a narcissist or really cruel or "super picky" but it's not about that. It's about terror. That's as far as I've got. Thanks for sharing Seeking appreciate it. And glad you're aware and moving forward great stuff |
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Post by seeking on Jul 23, 2020 12:19:09 GMT
So what is the difference between trauma bond and fantasy bond?
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Post by alexandra on Jul 25, 2020 0:57:38 GMT
So what is the difference between trauma bond and fantasy bond? A trauma bond is when someone tells you they care about you but also is abusive in some way, which causes cognitive dissonance and probably includes intermittent reinforcement. Often due to an earlier association in life of abuse with love (to stay attached to another figure who was abusing you), there's a tolerance for this familiar feeling -- abuse is received as love.
A fantasy bond is more about projecting roles onto the relationship. For example, staying superficial and idealizing a relationship and your expectations in a certain way, even if they're not actually being met, rather than actually learning about and accepting who the person is in front of you while in turn not being fully open, honest, and vulnerable yourself. So, while the reality doesn't necessarily meet your needs, projections, or idealized fantasy version, you stay at a superficial enough level that you almost see a "substitute" version of what's really in front of you and stick with that version in your head, avoiding issues. Or it can be another way... for example, you're used to your role as the "needy" one and the other person's role as the "strong" one, and you play into behaviors to feed into specific roles (that's more tracking to co-dependence). Fantasy bonding a coping mechanism probably learned earlier in life from having insecure attachment bonds and needing to stay attached to an insecure and inconsistent or unreliable adult.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 25, 2020 18:02:07 GMT
seeking, I agree with annieb 's advice on this (though I think you'll know if he's projecting all over you after actually meeting a few times, if it comes to that, in less time than 6 months... it usually takes me 2-4 meetings in person to decide this, though that's of course not enough time to gauge someone's overall consistency as a person). And I also think there's value to listening to the fact your gut is telling you there's an issue, though you're still sorting out if it's him or you (or both) projecting. But I was thinking more about this and wanted to offer some other ways to expand thinking about someone doing this and, on its own, it not necessarily being a red flag depending on how they handle it. Because lately I'm doing this a little! Even though I'm just thinking it and not saying it out loud to the person. But I'm aware of exactly why and can explain it. I've been talking to someone for a while that I haven't been able to meet yet due to pandemic logistics. May be a different situation than yours because it sounds like my communication with him is more balanced with us both initiating equally. I'm still meeting new people I can see in person (from a distance) as well, but at least for now under these circumstances where the virus is bad where I am and getting to know anyone new right now is very constrained, we have the strongest connection of anyone I'm engaging with. But pandemic dating is strange at best. Anyway, I've found myself sometimes thinking, "wish you were here", then thinking, "that's so weird since we haven't met yet". But the reason it's happening isn't about being needy at all or anything engulfment-related. He and I are both extremely isolated right now, and for me, it's about simply wanting to share experiences with another person again. I haven't really been able to do that for months. And sometimes I happen to see or be doing something I know he'd also enjoy, as he's told me things about himself, and then I'd like to share it with him both because I believe he'd enjoy it (for him) AND because I like being able to share things with other people (for me). The way it's manifesting in actual actions is we send each other photos of scenery and places we are, instead of saying things like, miss you / wish you were here. So I don't know if sending photos without the 'wish you were here' caption sounds different to you than what you're getting from this guy, but in my own head when I'm doing that, I'm basically thinking "wish you were here even though that's a weird thought because I haven't met you yet, but we'll get around to it once the situation allows (or we won't because I'll have met someone else or some other reason), and I'm otherwise living my life to the fullest extent being responsible during a pandemic allows." It's not actually due to having expectations of him or us yet, as I don't know him, just would be really nice to share things in the moment. Again, not defending your guy, or myself! Just trying to offer another perspective on why someone might be doing that while the world is different.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 25, 2020 21:34:12 GMT
Why does my friend want to ENABLE ME?
Also going back now to catch up on your other messages and questions.
This one first because it's easiest. I say like often attracts like. Unaware insecurely attached people often attract other insecurely attached people. This isn't limited to romantic partners, it's true of friend circles as well. Your friend is probably not intentionally enabling you but is likely not giving you an objective or secure perspective because the friend probably has an insecure attachment style as well.
I'm glad the other long post I wrote was helpful for you.
"My therapist said you are like a rescue dog. Lol. Someone has to have the stamina and their physiology has to be so that you're not constantly triggering THEIR abandonment wounds with your stuff.
...
Isn't it then a good idea to have someone who triggers a bit of the wounds so they can be healed and there can be enough there to stick with it? Not like full-scale, but like a couple "doses" of it to create the bond? Or is that just like junkee thinking?"
It sounds like your therapist is suggesting you date someone secure, which is the general recommendation anyway, so that you don't get in a situation where you have two insecures constantly triggering each other and distracting each other from individual growth into security. Otherwise, you get stuck in the toxic anxious-avoidant dance.
Which is exactly why it's not good to have someone trigger the wounds. That is junkie thinking (because you get triggered high and then low). Those wounds are there ALL the time. You don't need a partner to trigger them for them to be there, because your partner didn't cause them initially so your partner isn't going to heal them by keeping you in a triggered space either. It is up to you to dig into them, confront them, face the pain and fear, and heal. And it sounds like you're in the middle of doing this work by having a therapist and being on this board and whatever else you're doing for yourself, which is great. You don't need an unhealthy partner to be in the middle of that, getting you stuck in cycles and sending you backwards. I've been there, done that. The times unhealthy partners "helped" me by driving me insane with anxiety was when they sent me towards such a painful emotional rock bottom that I was motivated to take responsibility to change my life and stay committed to doing the self-work. It was not because they triggered the f--- out of me in a positive way! It was because I'd finally had enough of feeling that way and took initiative on my own.
The other problem with this is you equate (anxious) triggering with bonding and attachment. That's totally normal for having an insecure attachment style, I used to make that same mistake. But that's not what healthy attachment is. That doesn't create the bond. That creates anxiety, projection, instability, and being trapped in patterns. Healthy attachment comes from getting to know someone over time, consistency, honesty, trust, vulnerability, and calmness (that comes from inherent confidence in the stability of the relationship) in both good and bad times. It's easy, when you're still struggling with your own issues and identity and trust in yourself, to assume this feels like... nothing. Because you're not triggered anxious or avoidant and have to sit with yourself. Which is nearly impossible to do when you're actually disconnected from yourself due to the attachment issues. Until I started giving more stable people a chance and not getting ahead of myself, I had no sense of this being a core reason all my relationships were totally chaotic. I thought the overwhelm from the triggering, the chaos, was what society told me love is... that's not healthy romantic relationship love, though, it turns out.
Deactivation in this case means being triggered avoidant and your nervous system shutting down to deal with emotional overwhelm (and fear of engulfment), versus getting triggered anxious and your nervous system getting flooded with anxiety and desire for reconnection (fear of abandonment). FAs go through both triggers.
"So I don't want to like him." "I am going to try with this guy. But I know what's going to happen. If he's already this into me, and I haven't even done anything yet, we'll meet once and he'll start "falling in love" --- and I will be long gone and hurt him. So what's the point?"
This goes back to what I said about love and commitment being a choice. If you don't want to like someone, you've already decided you're not open to it, and you won't let them in. That's your choice. That choice might be about someone being a poor and incompatible match, but it might also be out of fear and wanting to protect yourself from letting anyone in. And some people will be the wrong ones to let you whom you can't trust. But not everyone. And working on feeling more stable and trusting in yourself will eventually allow you to tell the difference more confidently. But you will sabotage things with this guy before it goes anywhere if this is your attitude going in, which is why I'm suggesting you may want to focus on your therapy for longer before you jump back into the dating pool. Otherwise, you're not going to give anyone healthy (again, not that I'm saying this guy is healthy, I don't know!) a chance.
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Post by seeking on Jul 26, 2020 1:56:18 GMT
Well, Alexandra, that is FASCINATING and probably explains how certain people I've been really curious about even cope!
I was in a relationship with a covert narcissist, and it definitely fell under the trauma bonding category (for me). I don't think I'm capable of fantasy bonding b/c I need things "to be real" all the time, and I think the last person I was in a relationship with wanted that. I was a "stand in" for him to project all his feelings of love and attachment on and we could just be in "roles" (we each had children - man/woman - etc). But I can see how that happens. I think my sister is like this with her husband, and I always am amazed how things continue. But I guess this really explains it.
And I think my ex and his GF are like this. Which, again, explains how they are even still together. People are amazed.
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Post by seeking on Jul 27, 2020 0:53:25 GMT
Alexandra that makes sense about your experience. I think dating under pandemic is really different for people.
I haven't heard from the guy, though. I'm okay with that for now.
Though I did have this weird thought the other night-- not "weird" per se, but I guess unique for me.
I was doing some IFS (internal family systems) work on myself and just realizing that the my daughter's dad didn't care about my heart at all. And I told myself, I want the next guy to "care about my heart." And then I thought of the guy I'm writing about here - I guess he's that type, to sort of make it his business to care about the heart of the person he's with. I know he's a pretty good guy, and a stand-up guy. Sadly, that doesn't make me want to call him urgently, but I'm trying to want to.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 28, 2020 2:46:29 GMT
seeking, you also can't force it and shouldn't, and that's okay. You can give yourself more time to get to know someone better, but if that's not changing anything, it also reflects where you are in your own process of becoming more secure. And that's not something you can rush. But I will tell you that the more secure you get in general, the more secure the partners you'll be attracted to. It just happens naturally as part of that process!
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Post by seeking on Jul 29, 2020 2:51:02 GMT
seeking , you also can't force it and shouldn't, and that's okay. You can give yourself more time to get to know someone better, but if that's not changing anything, it also reflects where you are in your own process of becoming more secure. And that's not something you can rush. But I will tell you that the more secure you get in general, the more secure the partners you'll be attracted to. It just happens naturally as part of that process! That make sense. Been wanting to post here and say more about your longer post above, but been a busy few days. A few nights ago, I looked the guy up on FB. I was alarmed that he tagged his ex-wife (who apparently cheated in him) on quite a few posts and then saw that she liked pretty much every signle one of his posts. That to me just spells out poor boundaries, which was my feeling about him from the start. not in a really negative way just not my thing. Anyway, that night I had really intense dreams about him to the point where I felt disturbed all the next day. It was this weird "terror" and I suspect that might be at the heart of a lot of my attachment stuff. It was almost as though spending a bunch of time right before bed looking through his FB profile on my phone and then dreaming about him (or someone I imagine to be him) alllll night made me feel very engulfed, and it was disturbing. Also, I hate to say this but from what I can tell, he's not my equal. I know that sounds judgey and superior. But I have a masters degree, have traveled, read a lot of books, follow stuff going on in the world, have my own career etc, and he worked at Applebees not that long ago. It was just like "not my person" Though the concept of deactivation/activation is really fascinating to me and I still do get a little confused about when I do that or when someone just isn't right. So I will be keeping that in mind. I can also see that that is EXACTLY what the guy did who I was dating when all this recent look at my attachment stuff, back in therapy, etc. started. Things were fine, going along, and boom, gone. Like he suddenly shut down and disappeared. And so of course I always think about texting him. I've been noting how lately I've been really triggered by so many things - a guy online not writing me back (two actually) that I thought had good potential. Feeling alone and like I'm never going to meet anyone. Seeing people who are partnered, etc. Feeling alone and unsupported. Etc. etc. And I either want to eat sugar, have a drink, escape travel, or text this guy ...(the deactivated one) so that's been something I'm watching. It gets painful and intense, but I don't do the behaviors (I've been there done that too many times to know it leads me nowhere good) - but I'll admit it's been really hard. And so I'm just trying to manage my triggers, and when I can attend to them/those wounded parts of me. Unfortunately I had to stop therapy b/c I have to put some money toward my business right now ... but I plan to continue doing my self-work. I really do know what I need to do, I think I just get triggered when I see guys online that seem like someone I'd want to get to know/am attracted to in some ways, but don't write me/etc. and I feel left with a slew of not great choices and find myself sifting among them trying to see if I can salvage one. I really would love to just attract what I know I want. But it feels like it's rare/scarce, and that's been frustrating. In the meantime I am working on me, bettering me, but still.... it would be nice to get one or two occasional positive bit of feedback/reflection of that in the universe! So I'm generally pretty triggered these days but learning ... |
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