alli
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Post by alli on Sept 21, 2017 0:49:24 GMT
Hi all,
I've just learned about avoidant tendencies in relationships and I was wondering if you could help me with a couple questions I had regarding my ex.
I believe he is fearful avoidant. We had a long distance relationship and he came to my town for work every few months. We talked every day, had tons in common and had a great time together. He broke it off a few months ago (after a nearly 2 year relationship) out of the blue ... we were planning a trip away together at the time and it just seemed like he panicked. He said he "sees himself as single" and wanted to be friends.
For him, friends meant being exactly as we were, just without the sex and dating other people. It was agony for me. He had always been good at talking through his issues (he tried to break things off about a year earlier, but when I said I didn't think I could be friends, he said he didn't want to lose me), but when I said this transition made no sense to me and if I didn't get more info, I'd have to stop, he retreated for the first time.
My question -- do fearful avoidants actually love? I haven't read that in any of the stories I've found about it. I'm trying to figure out if I should have empathy and work out a way to keep him in my life (I really do miss him and our friendship), or should I cut and run? Did he even care at all? Why would he date me for two years if he saw himself s single all along? I feel like all I'm doing is blaming myself.
He was always great at responding to messages and was always kind to me (he really values kindness), so I don't feel like he's completely like what most fearful avoidants are described to be. And I really do believe he can be friends.
I don't know if I'm making sense. I guess I'm just trying to make sense out of a confusing situation.
Thank you so much.
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Post by serene13 on Sept 21, 2017 2:37:33 GMT
Hi Alli - to answer your question 'do fearful avoidants love?' I think most would say they don't know what love is or feels like. They are having relationships in the way they know how, sort of how they believe they are supposed to occur, without the feeling. They have gone through an internal emotional transformation early in life that shelters them from pain, and they are unaware of how that occurred and how they really differ from others that did not experience that. So, he is experiencing things differently than you. From experience, keeping him in your life, as a friend, will not be easy. He will go on and date others, always feeling like he can move one without feeling emotional hurt, but you will continue to do so. It is very tough. You can try but go in knowing that probably the only one continuing to be hurt will be you.
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alli
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Post by alli on Sept 22, 2017 0:29:17 GMT
Thank you so much, azgirl, for your input. You're right about the friends bit. I could see that being true for me, too. It was hard as it was because I didn't know how to be friends in the same way we were before ... in my mind, why end it to begin with?
If you don't mind a follow up, too, do you think he hurts at all about the end of the relationship? Or liked me at all throughout? (It won't hurt my feelings if the answer is 'no,' I'm just trying to understand what happened). He seemed to be really bothered when I said I didn't think I'd be able to be friends, but could have just been a bruised ego. I was sad I hurt his feelings, but I don't know that I did. I guess I don't understand why he would want to be in a pseudo-relationship at all if he never had any feelings or intentions on continuing things -- seeing himself as single and all.
Anyway, thanks for your help. I really appreciate you putting things in perspective for me.
Best wishes.
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Post by serene13 on Sept 22, 2017 5:41:23 GMT
You're very welcome Alli  - and I think he could very well feel something negative about losing the relationship. I have wondered the same about the avoidant I knew. I do think that they feel justified in what they do when they leave - that they are doing it because they can or they have to. Mine used to claim to never feel a sense of loss or feeling of hurt - but I believe I saw evidence otherwise. They have been - I guess - re-wired to blunt the feelings of hurt. I think they live in weird state of believing they should want the normalcy of a relationship - but it is pretty much like they are simply going through the motions of having one - not really being a true part. Still makes me shake my head though - absolutely one of the toughest things to understand that I've experienced in life. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 5:52:31 GMT
Good question
My ex FA/DA is in torment - but the strange thing is it's not regret for the pain he's caused or real love, instead it's pain at how the failure of our relationship reflected on him, what it means for his future, the sorrow is all about him no longer having the conditions in his life that made him happy - nothing to do with concern for the other person in the relationship.
It's a kind of selfish love - narcissistic, in that it's failure is mourned by feelings on their part that reflect on them - no sense of empathy or compassion for the other person.
When we have separated before I saw his sadness as the real thing - and thought he would genuinely change - now many years down the line and can recognise that it's another symptom of the "all about me" syndrome that was pervasive in our relationship. He's failed and he feels bad about that since it reflects badly on him. He doesn't have any idea or care about what it's done to me - how the behaviours that made our life together difficult affected me. In all his past relationships he makes himself feel better by going onto the next victim (I was one of those) and then rationalises to himself that everything is fine now - despite the fact that I could see tortured exes coming out of the woodwork and looking very definitely not alright.
No blame here - it's a pattern and it's not his fault - I take full responsibility for staying so long, he didn't mean to hurt - but by behaving repeatedly in a heedless way oblivious to the consequences it is a form of abuse - unintentional or not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 5:56:35 GMT
Re the just friends - my ex played that every time - and would reel me in, It caused an immense amount of extra pain at a time when just ripping off the bandaid, accepting it was over and dealing with the pain would have been a healthier thing to do.
I think that being friends was another symptom of avoidance - so he didn't need to confront the discomfort of being without his support - could see I still loved him but without having to confront his difficulties or make changes.
This time round I have gone NC as far as possible and it's been a good thing for me.
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Post by bravocharlie on Oct 21, 2017 16:48:52 GMT
Much wisdom abounds in this forum... Somewhere in these threads, someone said something like, "What they feel as love one day, they experience as anxiety the next," in regards to how a FA/DA might perceive things. I.e., no--they don't know what love is...or at least don't recognize it when it is present.
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Post by cricket on Oct 27, 2017 3:57:33 GMT
This is a complex topic in my opinion, because the English language uses the word love sort of vaguely, for many different meanings. Some time ago I read how the Greeks have at least 3 words for it: phileo, eros and agape. Yes, we FA can feel phileo towards friends for example. And eros towards the lover/significant other... this is the romantic love, the infatuation, the burning feeling that fades away after some years to give place to a different kind of love: agape, which is unconditional. As a FA myself, I have never felt that last sort of love towards my partner. Reasons may be that I never made it out of the honeymoon years because my relationships never lasted more than 2 years... or that I am not capable of the unconditional love, because I am always expecting something in return. It sucks. I would like to know how it feels to love unconditionally, to the extent to wish the other the best in life even if it does not involve me anymore. But I guess my ego never allowed me to feel such pure thing. I do believe I love some member of my family unconditionally, but they will never play the role of a partner, so it is not fair to compare. Towards a partner, I have never felt more than deep prolongued infatuation mixed with kindness and other stuff. But never unconditional love. sad. Hope I will know this in my life. Hi, I have often thought about this too. I see it differently though. Agape love is that universal unconditional love I have for all beings. And to me agape love will never be romantic love. Romantic love is in it's own separate space. Romantic love is something else. If im going to have a life partner of course there are going to be conditions. I'm not going to romantically love someone who is cheating or who chooses a path that doesn't coincide w my beliefs. I can still have agape love for them but not romantic love. I have agape love for all of my ex's now. If you have agape love for anyone, family member or whatever , then you know it. I don't think it has to be an intimate partner to be fully experience by you. |
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Post by epistasis on Oct 31, 2017 4:22:29 GMT
My FA/DA ex also wanted to remain friends. When I cut him off completely, as it was too hard for me to only see him as a friend, he didn't seem too happy about it. We remained friends after the breakup for quite awhile, and I have to say in some respects he treated me better when there weren't expectations.
I think many avoidants are capable of feeling love, but they can just turn off the emotional distress easier. I do believe they go into physical distress in some cases.
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Post by brokenbiscuit on Jul 20, 2018 22:51:23 GMT
Yes, we are not robots despite what many may think. I fully understand how our actions don't back this up so it can seem we are uncaring or selfish or users or cold. We love but we are afraid of the vulnerabilirt an intimate relationship will bring, and the abandonment that we believe will always inevitably follow. The pain of this is intense and overwhelming so we protect ourself from that risk. This is all done subconsciously and by parts of the brain that trigger the fight or flight response. Flight wins quite often as you all well know. It's a torment and self defeating and we are not happy people. So in answer to the question, yes we feel love, we feel emotion, and we feel it just as much as you do.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 21, 2018 2:55:42 GMT
Anecdotal experience with a small sample size here. Based on my FA ex and on a guy I knew who I'm pretty sure is FA and talked to me extensively about the inner workings of his chaotic and moody dating life, they definitely feel. I think they do feel love. However, the ones I have experience with don't seem to recognize it as such.
What they've described to me as love seems to be when their anxious attachment is being triggered, and they feel overwhelmed and needy, and those needs aren't getting met because they're with partners triggering them for a reason (likely DAs). But those are the situations that make them want to chase and feel passionate and desperate, so they interpret that as love. Situations involving real love, something healthier and more secure, make them feel engulfed and avoidant -- the push. They can't understand why they feel that way and write it off as they don't feel "in love" or it would be like the desperate relationships that made then feel more pull. So they do feel justified in leaving and knowing something is wrong with their part in the experience but they don't understand what... then it's easier to just assume it was not "the one" instead of facing their inner wounds. After all, that's why the FA attachment system developed: to protect them from having to feel the intensity of that wound.
The FA friend had a lot of therapy but it didn't seem to help that much. I didn't realize he was FA when we used to have these talks, so I never asked if his therapist specialized in attachment. However, both the friend and my ex are not happy people, and underneath being self absorbed, they are sensitive and really don't enjoy hurting others. They just haven't figured themselves out enough to change anything (yet?).
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Post by mrob on Jul 21, 2018 16:39:09 GMT
If you want to see how it really looks from an FA perspective, look at mine or Brokenbiscuits' account. Some of us actually know we're the damaged ones and want to do something about it.
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Post by brokenbiscuit on Jul 21, 2018 18:08:35 GMT
Thank you mate. Its tough, and sometimes doesn't help when you read comments online from people who think we are psychopathic or intentionally being monsters. Like we enjoy all this somehow. (not on this message board, but other more generic websites)
I know these are comments from people who have been hurt deeply by our actions, so I can understand their pain and anger. It guilts me dreadfully regarding the pain I have caused.
One comment I read from another website had somebody say something along the lines of "all strongly avoidant men are damaged, selfish and evil. If I had my way they would all be put into a camp and kept away from society forever" followed by about fifty upvotes liking the comment! The absurdity of the comment is pretty funny tbh but the malice and lack of understanding towards why we do what we do cuts a bit, but then again I don't expect people to understand our inner workings. I didn't either until a few months ago. But last thing my already crippled self esteem needs is to be told I'm best off in an imaginary Internet concentration camp! 😁
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 18:32:22 GMT
Thank you mate. Its tough, and sometimes doesn't help when you read comments online from people who think we are psychopathic or intentionally being monsters. Like we enjoy all this somehow. (not on this message board, but other more generic websites) I know these are comments from people who have been hurt deeply by our actions, so I can understand their pain and anger. It guilts me dreadfully regarding the pain I have caused. One comment I read from another website had somebody say something along the lines of "all strongly avoidant men are damaged, selfish and evil. If I had my way they would all be put into a camp and kept away from society forever" followed by about fifty upvotes liking the comment! The absurdity of the comment is pretty funny tbh but the malice and lack of understanding towards why we do what we do cuts a bit, but then again I don't expect people to understand our inner workings. I didn't either until a few months ago. But last thing my already crippled self esteem needs is to be told I'm best off in an imaginary Internet concentration camp! 😁 dismissive avoidants get it from anxious posters also- it's actually quite emotionally and verbally abusive. it's one thing to be hurt, and angry- they may not realize that their behavior may have left the avoidant who left them, hurt and angry also. when you see the vitriol and dehumanizing remarks, it's not hard to imagine how they contribute to the toxic dynamic they have engaged in. if you take a good look at jeb's main sight, you will read how the tendency of an insecure anxiously attached person is to have a paranoid outlook, always detecting intentional harm where none is intended. They tend to interpret the actions of their partner through a lens of fear and impending abandonment. so, understanding this, you can see that you don't need to take that stuff personally even though it's offensive or triggering and without a doubt hateful. It's just anxious acting out. i've left the forum when i grew tired of it before- there's only so much a person needs to tolerate and if it gets unbalanced, it might not be a good place to try to heal. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 19:02:19 GMT
Thank you mate. Its tough, and sometimes doesn't help when you read comments online from people who think we are psychopathic or intentionally being monsters. Like we enjoy all this somehow. (not on this message board, but other more generic websites) I know these are comments from people who have been hurt deeply by our actions, so I can understand their pain and anger. It guilts me dreadfully regarding the pain I have caused. One comment I read from another website had somebody say something along the lines of "all strongly avoidant men are damaged, selfish and evil. If I had my way they would all be put into a camp and kept away from society forever" followed by about fifty upvotes liking the comment! The absurdity of the comment is pretty funny tbh but the malice and lack of understanding towards why we do what we do cuts a bit, but then again I don't expect people to understand our inner workings. I didn't either until a few months ago. But last thing my already crippled self esteem needs is to be told I'm best off in an imaginary Internet concentration camp! 😁 dismissive avoidants get it from anxious posters also- it's actually quite emotionally and verbally abusive. it's one thing to be hurt, and angry- they may not realize that their behavior may have left the avoidant who left them, hurt and angry also. when you see the vitriol and dehumanizing remarks, it's not hard to imagine how they contribute to the toxic dynamic they have engaged in. if you take a good look at jeb's main sight, you will read how the tendency of an insecure anxiously attached person is to have a paranoid outlook, always detecting intentional harm where none is intended. They tend to interpret the actions of their partner through a lens of fear and impending abandonment. so, understanding this, you can see that you don't need to take that stuff personally even though it's offensive or triggering and without a doubt hateful. It's just anxious acting out. i've left the forum when i grew tired of it before- there's only so much a person needs to tolerate and if it gets unbalanced, it might not be a good place to try to heal. As an FA and an AP, I would say that the difference is that I don't actually cause others harm - if I do hurt anyone (if they express it, act as if they have been hurt or if I can pick that up from them) then I will do my absolute utmost to rectify that. I think pure FA's are unaware or unwilling to take that step - i.e., to be 'brave' enough to speak to the person involved / address the issue. So, it can seem, from an AP POV, extremely self-centred, un-empathic and even cowardly. Just my POV. |
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- and I think he could very well feel something negative about losing the relationship. I have wondered the same about the avoidant I knew. I do think that they feel justified in what they do when they leave - that they are doing it because they can or they have to. Mine used to claim to never feel a sense of loss or feeling of hurt - but I believe I saw evidence otherwise. They have been - I guess - re-wired to blunt the feelings of hurt. I think they live in weird state of believing they should want the normalcy of a relationship - but it is pretty much like they are simply going through the motions of having one - not really being a true part. Still makes me shake my head though - absolutely one of the toughest things to understand that I've experienced in life.
