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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 20:04:34 GMT
dismissive avoidants get it from anxious posters also- it's actually quite emotionally and verbally abusive. it's one thing to be hurt, and angry- they may not realize that their behavior may have left the avoidant who left them, hurt and angry also. when you see the vitriol and dehumanizing remarks, it's not hard to imagine how they contribute to the toxic dynamic they have engaged in. if you take a good look at jeb's main sight, you will read how the tendency of an insecure anxiously attached person is to have a paranoid outlook, always detecting intentional harm where none is intended. They tend to interpret the actions of their partner through a lens of fear and impending abandonment. so, understanding this, you can see that you don't need to take that stuff personally even though it's offensive or triggering and without a doubt hateful. It's just anxious acting out. i've left the forum when i grew tired of it before- there's only so much a person needs to tolerate and if it gets unbalanced, it might not be a good place to try to heal. As an FA and an AP, I would say that the difference is that I don't actually cause others harm - if I do hurt anyone (if they express it, act as if they have been hurt or if I can pick that up from them) then I will do my absolute utmost to rectify that. I think pure FA's are unaware or unwilling to take that step - i.e., to be 'brave' enough to speak to the person involved / address the issue. So, it can seem, from an AP POV, extremely self-centred, un-empathic and even cowardly. Just my POV. yes, everyone has their POV, for sure. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 21, 2018 20:17:43 GMT
if you take a good look at jeb's main sight, you will read how the tendency of an insecure anxiously attached person is to have a paranoid outlook, always detecting intentional harm where none is intended. They tend to interpret the actions of their partner through a lens of fear and impending abandonment. I can't speak for others with AP...but this is definately me....I own it and I am not sure if it came from my mom or my dad or was just something in my nature...but distrust to the point of paranoia and fear of abandonment to the point of expecting to be left has run through every single one of my relationships. It is not a pretty aspect and if I am honest, it is extremely draining and tiring.....but I am working to observe it more and own it more as being my issue. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 20:26:26 GMT
if you take a good look at jeb's main sight, you will read how the tendency of an insecure anxiously attached person is to have a paranoid outlook, always detecting intentional harm where none is intended. They tend to interpret the actions of their partner through a lens of fear and impending abandonment. I can't speak for others with AP...but this is definately me....I own it and I am not sure if it came from my mom or my dad or was just something in my nature...but distrust to the point of paranoia and fear of abandonment to the point of expecting to be left has run through every single one of my relationships. It is not a pretty aspect and if I am honest, it is extremely draining and tiring.....but I am working to observe it more and own it more as being my issue. awareness is key- and this underlying AP tendency makes it really sketchy to try to figure out what's in the avoidant's head, there is a lot of negative bias. i think that AP's tend to make themselves suffer even more with the negative story line. this is not to say that these relationships aren't pain for both parties- but the pain is amplified when one person is seen as pure evil! |
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Post by whdavies on Jul 22, 2018 2:04:30 GMT
...as someone who never knew about attachment in adult relationships until 8 weeks ago the past few months have been a genuine revelation.
Ive read a slew of books and a textbook too.
A relationship of 5 years ended.Id always known from super early that my ex couldnt share her time or how she felt with me.It was just absent.
I loved and love her of course.Never known anguish as per a month ago like that.
Boomerangs piece below was really helpful.Deeply helpful infact and thats why i joined and wanted to write and say thankyou.
Overall its just so sad. My ex would look at me sometimes after a glass of wine and if ever ive known anyone loved me deeply i felt it was her.
Any book tips or anything well would be deeply appreciated.
Thanks again yr postings.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 8:40:46 GMT
Thinking about apologies and fear RE FAs and rectifying/addressing issues...I think APs can have trouble with it, too, when activated. At least, I have. When I dumped on my DA/FA or whatever he is in the spring, I knew the next AM that I had really messed up. But my immediate response was to try to tell him that I did not want to end the relationship. I was totally afraid I had blown it (and yes, as events played out, I had indeed), but my activated response was to try to get him to say that he wouldn't end things with me. To secure his agreement/reassurance. I did not, in that state, come from a place of empathy, I have to say. It took me awhile to realize I had hurt him--a few weeks maybe. That seems so bizarre to me now, as I am not that way in secure relationships with friends. Nor do I dump on friends, either. This was a pure AP (me) DA/FA (him) interaction. So, when I realized it, I did want to apologize and "fix" it. But I was afraid to bring up the negative interaction and remind him as I was afraid it would upset him again and push him away when things were fragile. Fear, fear, fear. I kept thinking that when we had a close moment I would, but that never came. Though we did stay in friendly contact and got together a few times, I never felt that close intimacy to the degree that we had had, so never felt the moment was right. So fast forward 3 months to my most recent meeting with him, when he was cool and detached. I did apologize then, and he was very dismissive of it. Of course, this is what I had been afraid of, right? That it would not be met with acceptance and forgiveness. Which equals, emotionally, rejection for me. So, fear was a huge part of it for me. I wanted to feel safe when I apologized, and we did not have the moment when I felt that way. When I did apologize, finally, I felt I was taking responsibility for hurting him and owning it, and that he would feel relieved, I guess. I still feel horribly guilty for the way I reacted that night. But, he saw it as something I was doing for me "to get closure" and said coldly he never thought about it afterwards. That was then end of that piece of the conversation. Since I thought we were still in a relationship, that is not how I was thinking of it at all. I saw it as a much needed mending, he wasn't interested/didn't react that way. I have reflected on this a lot since I offered my apology. What I see now is that my initial response immediately after I dumped was to try to get my needs met in my activated state. That my inability to apologize in a timely fashion, once I realized later that I had hurt him, was all fear based. And my takeaway is in any relationship, regardless of attachment dynamics, wrongs need to be righted when they are fresh. The only way to honestly own one's actions is to focus on the hurt done to the other, rather than the self and fear of rejection. I didn't do that, and it had real consequences, both for how I felt about myself (guilt, shame, anxiety that I messed up badly, and a sense of operating from a weak and inauthentic place) and for his trust in me. So, I feel I learned something important, but once again, too late for this relationship, which is now over. But, I hope I remember it for next time. The challenge is I always, always make bad decisions/react poorly when I am activated. Even knowing that I am activated, I can't step back and reflect/react from a secure place. Knowledge is the first step, but I have had trouble accessing it when I am activated. Fear is the enemy for all of us, at the core, I think. So, I wonder, what is the path to courage? In my own case (not speaking for others, I know others are making real progress in this respect) I don't see my attachment wounds "healing" as realistic, frankly, as they are a part of me and I feel cannot be undone, only managed. So, I think, there has to be some sort of conscious decision, a way to think, a framework, that can help me act from a secure place, rather than a fearful place. Regardless of the outcome then, I can still feel good about myself. I do not feel good about how I handled this. Hi boomerang - I feel that my last interaction with an extreme FA was actually much, much more Secure. Yes, fear is at the root at most of this stuff. Whilst I am still a WIP, I believe the solution is to find our own self-worth. Learning self-acceptance / self-love teaches you your self-worth and helps define your boundaries...then, you learn to stand up for yourself in a more 'adult' way (rather than a child-like reaction). Also, a lot of repressed / suppressed anger is likely also hidden underneath / inside of you. We were raised / treated in unacceptable ways growing up, but we've never been allowed to even recognise that, let alone express it to those that raised us. Likely, we 'had to' love the carers that were treating us that way, we had no other choice. When you do uncover and release that anger, even fury, under the right, protective circumstances - not at the individuals concerned - everything begins to change. You start to develop your self-worth from there and build on it with self-love. There is a lot of talk of triggers on this forum, which seem to be used an excuse for behaviour - whilst there is some truth in that, the key is learning to value yourself so that you are able to react in a less dramatic way. Other people will always upset you - I used to believe I had to aim for perfection in my responses to others. Then I learned that that is an impossible task. Everyone has their own stuff to deal with daily, we can only really manage our own - holding respect for yourself and the other. The solution is understanding that when someone does something that is unfair / wrong, you are allowed to react. But when you are so afraid of the response - which is key to, I believe, all types - it will throw your response off-kilter. When you are connected / tuned into allowing your emotions / accepting them and respecting yourself - and the other person - you will respond accordingly. It also means that if you want to correct an 'over-response' (which will still happen as a secure), you will respect yourself and the other enough to deal with that as soon as you can, however uncomfortable that is. The other thing to remember is that the response of the other person will likely be far off from what you expect or want. But that is theirs to deal with. They may digest and respond differently at a later stage. Understanding what you tolerate as normal - which is not actually normal / acceptable (from a Secure POV) - and un-training yourself to accept this treatment from another is the skill that needs to be learnt, practised and developed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 12:30:06 GMT
Hi boomerang - I feel that my last interaction with an extreme FA was actually much, much more Secure. Yes, fear is at the root at most of this stuff. Whilst I am still a WIP, I believe the solution is to find our own self-worth. Learning self-acceptance / self-love teaches you your self-worth and helps define your boundaries...then, you learn to stand up for yourself in a more 'adult' way (rather than a child-like reaction). Also, a lot of repressed / suppressed anger is likely also hidden underneath / inside of you. We were raised / treated in unacceptable ways growing up, but we've never been allowed to even recognise that, let alone express it to those that raised us. Likely, we 'had to' love the carers that were treating us that way, we had no other choice. When you do uncover and release that anger, even fury, under the right, protective circumstances - not at the individuals concerned - everything begins to change. You start to develop your self-worth from there and build on it with self-love. There is a lot of talk of triggers on this forum, which seem to be used an excuse for behaviour - whilst there is some truth in that, the key is learning to value yourself so that you are able to react in a less dramatic way. Other people will always upset you - I used to believe I had to aim for perfection in my responses to others. Then I learned that that is an impossible task. Everyone has their own stuff to deal with daily, we can only really manage our own - holding respect for yourself and the other. The solution is understanding that when someone does something that is unfair / wrong, you are allowed to react. But when you are so afraid of the response - which is key to, I believe, all types - it will throw your response off-kilter. When you are connected / tuned into allowing your emotions / accepting them and respecting yourself - and the other person - you will respond accordingly. It also means that if you want to correct an 'over-response' (which will still happen as a secure), you will respect yourself and the other enough to deal with that as soon as you can, however uncomfortable that is. The other thing to remember is that the response of the other person will likely be far off from what you expect or want. But that is theirs to deal with. They may digest and respond differently at a later stage. Understanding what you tolerate as normal - which is not actually normal / acceptable (from a Secure POV) - and un-training yourself to accept this treatment from another is the skill that needs to be learnt, practised and developed. Boomerang This post has spoken to my heart so much. What a dignified and honest post it is. Like yourself when I'm activated I lose it, I think in my previous marriage me and my husband gave as good as we got. Because of his alcoholism I felt had the right to speak To him in a very disrespectful manner and he always took it or fought back. I have dragged that attachment style into my last relationship with a sensitive person expecting him to be able to deal with me being upset when he ignored me for hours to game. Well it wasn't ok and it isn't ok to treat another person like that and this is the big lesson at a great cost that has come out of my encounter with an FA. I now know about attachment styles and have started on a big journey of self discovery xx [ @warriorgirl boomerangHelsbellsall of what is written here is so strong and brave and insightful. we all grew up twisted and fighting to survive in one way or another , and it's so great to realize we can lay the weapons down and get vulnerable, as we learn to really love and take care of ourselves. We can drop the big defenses. I went through a similar process in my relationship with my previous partner, we BOTH did, where we turned a corner and stopped fighting, started listening. we started sharing our feelings instead of being so defended. for two dismissive, this was huge and scary. but we were able to share a lot of growth! So, i just want to acknowledge and admire your processes here. i too have been through some humiliation and shame at my own patterns but have found the same freedom you are finding, release from my old self! enjoying the real me, who loves me and others  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 17:16:43 GMT
Juniper - thank you for your response.
I am at a difficult place (including for unrelated reasons to the ex-FA).
Sometimes, writing things on these forums actually makes you process what's bumbling around in your head!
I realise how far I have come - yet I still have an incredible amount of pain.
I grew up with humiliation and then encountered it repeatedly as an adult ... but there is also an over-sensitivity involved.
Humiliation was used as a control tactic (as well as other psychological and very, very physical abuse and neglect) in my 'caring' and 'nurturing'.
It almost feels, to have come out the other side, that I gave up my security - but that security had a huge cost (humiliation being one).
I was told by someone wise, that once I had 'woken', that I would meet others 'on the other side'. This is true - plus I also encounter those behind the dreadful fence / barrier that I try to 'save', try to show them the way out.
I don't know if I'm making sense, just expressing myself when I am at such a low, low point (which is OK!).
Anyway - your response, and that of others on this forum, means the world to me.
With tears, thank you xx
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 18:27:35 GMT
[ @warriorgirl boomerangHelsbellsall of what is written here is so strong and brave and insightful. we all grew up twisted and fighting to survive in one way or another , and it's so great to realize we can lay the weapons down and get vulnerable, as we learn to really love and take care of ourselves. We can drop the big defenses. I went through a similar process in my relationship with my previous partner, we BOTH did, where we turned a corner and stopped fighting, started listening. we started sharing our feelings instead of being so defended. for two dismissive, this was huge and scary. but we were able to share a lot of growth! So, i just want to acknowledge and admire your processes here. i too have been through some humiliation and shame at my own patterns but have found the same freedom you are finding, release from my old self! enjoying the real me, who loves me and others Thanks warrior girl And juniper for all your support. I can't wait for the gut wrenching feeling to go, it's been 8weeks and I am fed up with waking up every morning with stomach ache 😥 @warriorgirl boomerangHelsbells i have found, (and this is me from the dismissive point of view, some of it might not be relatable, i am unsure) is that it takes a lot of diligence to keep up the work part- the disciplines of identifying our patterns, habitual ways of thinking and behaving; becoming vulnerable to safe people instead of hiding; making the time to stop and listen to my difficult feelings and thoughts, to nurture and take care of them as they are without fixing them; to be brave and speak my truth instead of shielding, deflecting, avoiding, denying; to redirect my attention away from distractions they keep me stuck, and willfully train myself to new activities or ways of being. these are just a few of the disciplines i have had to re-train myself in, and keep at until they became new habits. i made a promise to myself (and internally to my partner) to keep at it every day as of my life depended on it, because i wanted to be a better friend to myself and to him. it took a long time and was so frustrating, at times. i did it even when i didn't feel good and it seemed like i was not only not making progress, it seemed like i was going further into the hole. But! over time, incrementally, i have healed a lot. sometimes it was in leaps and bounds. sometimes, it was like crawling through broken glass. but i am not the same person i was two years ago. I just got off the phone with my previous partner, whom i am still loving and caring for, even while we are not romantically involved. We were reminiscing about how we changed and grew and bonded, how we have gained such deep respect for each other that allows us to set agendas aside and support the greater good, for both of us. It was all a process that hasn't got us in the place we'd like to be (outside influences weigh heavy at this point and indefinitely) BUT- the tremendous progress as individuals is precious and will always be celebrated between us. i continue to grow as i let go of outcomes and expectations and develop an even bigger heart for the greater good of all involved in our situation. our relationship has changed but is still a big part of my journey. What i am saying is, even when we don't get what we think we want, llife has a way of making sure we get what we truly need when our heart is really set on growth and taking care of ourselves with love. This forum has been very helpful at times, for me to weigh out what is inside of me, remind me of things i am learning and growing into, and to give and receive encouragement and wisdom from others of any attachment style who are dedicated to healing and growing, |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 19:00:03 GMT
...as someone who never knew about attachment in adult relationships until 8 weeks ago the past few months have been a genuine revelation. Ive read a slew of books and a textbook too. A relationship of 5 years ended.Id always known from super early that my ex couldnt share her time or how she felt with me.It was just absent. I loved and love her of course.Never known anguish as per a month ago like that. Boomerangs piece below was really helpful.Deeply helpful infact and thats why i joined and wanted to write and say thankyou. Overall its just so sad. My ex would look at me sometimes after a glass of wine and if ever ive known anyone loved me deeply i felt it was her. Any book tips or anything well would be deeply appreciated. Thanks again yr postings. welcome to the forum 🌸 |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 23:14:15 GMT
Can I ask you if your partner is on board with you, to better your relationship. I really think with my ex there was just to much for me to cope with. His gaming his drinking, no intimacy, no sex, he never introduced me to his family and friends, he didn't just refuse my friend request on FB he completely blocked me and this is suppose to be a loving relationship. I was getting a complex like he must have been embarrassed about me. My self esteem was at rock bottom. And the few times I called him out he packed and left me in tears, and then would text me the next day and send a photo of a lovely meal he had cooked in a beautiful camping spot, whilst I could just about pick myself up of the floor. I didn't eat or wash I was so destraught and he would tell me to keep my chin up. Is the avoidant behaviour or something else. I really don't know what I have been put through. On top of this I was still grieving for my husband. I appreciate all the time you are putting into your posts and at the moment this forum and people like yourself are my life line because no one understands what I've been thru, but you all do. I was also aware of outside influences weighing me down. My parents are very judge mental and my mum would say, god can't you pick someone normal . Were not going to go through all this again. Fair enough I haven't had a healthy relationship, but it hurts and I wanted to protect my ex from being judged badly, but he wasn't being a very good bf. I appreciate all the material you are giving, lots of tools to get on board with, so thank you so much. Blessings to you all Xx My partner and i wished to grow together. We are two formerly deeply avoidant people who became involved in a casual manner (typical avoidant) and unexpectedly bonded emotionally over time. In order to be good to one another, we needed to transform over time. At one point, he said our broken parts fit together and our quirks helped us understand each other more than anyone he had known before. I agreed. it's been a mixed bag, lol. I became aware of attachment theory when i had to confront our dynamic, i never cared about someone as much as i care about him but i kept throwing walls up. (!) i noticed i was lying about what i really felt, and since i really felt a lot, i needed to stop, it was all new to me. this, after years of work to just get past trauma and PTSD from a devastating upbringing. anyway- he has his own avoidant issues and dynamic but i have only focused on mine. wanting to be good to him caused me to uncover (discover) myself a little at a time , and he began to reciprocate. i do not know his internal process with it. what i experience is the emotional honesty, progression of trust and authenticity, and mutual agreements we have been able to make as we navigate this whole thing. I only focus on my own health and honesty and vulnerability, and nurturing those things. So, it turns out that there is a lot of glue holding our souls together it seems, and we don't hurt each other. but we aren't romantically joined now. we both made effort and did not have an Ap/DA dynamic, nor are there addictions involved. We tend to resolve issues as we go instead of confronting the same ones over and over. My biggest thing has been emotional honesty, vulnerability, and overcoming total debilitating deactivation. There are things he and i cannot control but have to make realistic choices about, which have made a romantic relationship too much, for now and perhaps for a very long time, maybe forever, i do not know. I can not compare this relationship to your relationship as i see it as apples and oranges really. The end of our romantic involvement came about due to a very important and sad circumstance in his life that requires his full dedication and commitment in order to do what he needs to do for his soul work. It's something i consider sacred that i do not share here. without that circumstance i am certain we would continue to progress. But, reality prevails. my growth into authenticity in my (separated) relationship with him continues , as we negotiate new terms of involvement and share emotional intimacy without engaging in a romantic relationship. This is our mutual choice to continue this way, as neither of us wishes to say goodbye. We grew too much together to part , and have opted to change instead of dissolve. It took time to process my negative feelings and conflictedbess to be able to get to this point after i made the choice to leave the romantic relationship with him. I have no idea what the future holds and do not concern myself with it, as today is enough to concern myself with, i always have work to do in myself, as i think we all do. I have chosen to grasp the growth instead of the person, i guess is how i would put it. It still requires letting go, but it's good, and i see the beauty in it. I continue to be active here because i'm on a mission to not stop evolving. also, because i value supporting others who suffer the way i have, even if they are very different from me in attachment style. we are all humans who hurt and cut ourselves off from love until we learn how to stop doing that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 0:04:16 GMT
It sounds like such a beautiful relationship that is clearly working for you both. I haven't really scratched the surface so to speak on my recovery. All I need to be is willing to do whatever it takes to find some love and peace and value for myself. I have already learnt so much in such a short time. It's funny because I've been talking to different colleges at work about attachment theories and what I have learnt and nobody like myself up until recently as heard of such a thing. It's crazy as its so important to know this stuff. it's been very valuable, but not without plenty of the pain that accompanies evolution. i think only two avoidants could tolerate the ambiguity, but the reality is, that is what we are and i find growth in my reality. i test and live at the border of dismissive/secure in romantic relationship but do still have many avoidant quirks and have to confront deactivation in intimate relationship. so, it's a unique path for sure. you have made more progress than you think. it takes the heart a long time sometimes to catch up with new knowledge. it's true that you are at the beginning of awakening but that is better than being in the nightmare of ignorance. Just keep going. you can try to go back to the blindness but you would fall down so hard you'd give it up in search of a better way eventually. you won't get totally lost on this path you've chosen -to learn and grow and change - but it will feel like it because it's unfamiliar and shocking sometimes, and you're still raw and bleeding from where you have been. just keep going. one day at a time, thought by thought and feeling by feeling is how the change happens. you can only take each moment as it comes, gut it out, and be willing to take a different step than you took before. dont fret about the destination. you'll get there if you take this step by step which is what you're doing. it's going to pay off. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 9:53:42 GMT
It sounds like such a beautiful relationship that is clearly working for you both. I haven't really scratched the surface so to speak on my recovery. All I need to be is willing to do whatever it takes to find some love and peace and value for myself. I have already learnt so much in such a short time. It's funny because I've been talking to different colleges at work about attachment theories and what I have learnt and nobody like myself up until recently as heard of such a thing. It's crazy as its so important to know this stuff. it's been very valuable, but not without plenty of the pain that accompanies evolution. i think only two avoidants could tolerate the ambiguity, but the reality is, that is what we are and i find growth in my reality. i test and live at the border of dismissive/secure in romantic relationship but do still have many avoidant quirks and have to confront deactivation in intimate relationship. so, it's a unique path for sure. you have made more progress than you think. it takes the heart a long time sometimes to catch up with new knowledge. it's true that you are at the beginning of awakening but that is better than being in the nightmare of ignorance. Just keep going. you can try to go back to the blindness but you would fall down so hard you'd give it up in search of a better way eventually. you won't get totally lost on this path you've chosen -to learn and grow and change - but it will feel like it because it's unfamiliar and shocking sometimes, and you're still raw and bleeding from where you have been. just keep going. one day at a time, thought by thought and feeling by feeling is how the change happens. you can only take each moment as it comes, gut it out, and be willing to take a different step than you took before. dont fret about the destination. you'll get there if you take this step by step which is what you're doing. it's going to pay off. Awesome! When you 'see' something (attachment theory), you can never 'unseen' it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 11:59:20 GMT
we are very fortunate to live in a time of such awareness, with the ability to connect with each other over the internet and through other means, in order to understand and heal these things. So, in my opinion, we should remember to be thankful and make the very most of this opportunity. It wasn't extended to our parents, or grandparents, who surely suffered also. i do this for myself and my children so we don't have to continue this legacy. we really don't. awareness and insight can be handed down. i see the power of change in my own family and it's real.
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Post by whdavies on Jul 24, 2018 2:09:34 GMT
Can any folks here suggest any books please ?
Ive read Attached and Tatkins books and Shavers textbook.
I'm trying to understand my ex and also to see if it'll be possible to be friends with her in some undefined way.
Any suggestions or comments would be deeply appreciated.
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 24, 2018 2:38:57 GMT
Can any folks here suggest any books please ? Ive read Attached and Tatkins books and Shavers textbook. I'm trying to understand my ex and also to see if it'll be possible to be friends with her in some undefined way. Any suggestions or comments would be deeply appreciated. I have learned so much more about the various attachment styles from the members of this forum over any book I have read. What attachment style are you trying to understand? Also...Annie12 has some good articles in the general section. |
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