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Post by alexandra on Mar 3, 2021 19:04:01 GMT
I've been just where you are in your perspective and understand where you're coming from.
These are things I've found since then:
Once the anger at the ex (which is an important part of the becoming aware process for someone who always self blames) eventually dissipates, it becomes clearer that the "blame" doesn't actually matter. Healthy relationships aren't a power struggle, and the keeping score that comes with insecure attachment, and subsequently the blame, is actually a construct within someone's own mind. From there, getting towards self-acceptance and comfort with making (and learning from) mistakes in general in life becomes really important. Then the semantics don't matter because other people have their opinions and it's no reflection on you, as you always have your own back.
In the meantime, it's important to pay attention to when someone's semantics are triggering, as it indicates what aggravates your fear and insecurities. And that's a tool to identify and rewire them.
This isn't really about anxious versus avoidant, ultimately. It's about acceptance when a dynamic is toxic and that when something doesn't work after adequate communication, it simply doesn't work. It doesn't matter whose fault that is, all that matters is at least one person (or both) can't or doesn't want to make it work. And that often doesn't reflect on the partner, it just *is.* From a neutral standpoint, once you take out the hoping for potential, the needs and wiring of anxious and avoidant together are incompatible unless they're both at almost exactly the same part of their process in becoming more secure. Then you walk away with love and mourn and process the breakup.
Someone having crappy character and being a lousy person on top of insecure attachment issues is a different story. But if an AP wants to heal and not repeat the same attraction, dynamic, and getting triggered over and over that leads to the breakdown of anxious-avoidant relationships -- if they want to choose healthy partners and relationships which is completely within the AP's control, and again a huge contributor in a toxic dynamic is choosing an unavailable partner -- understanding all this on some level (even if it's not consciously in these terms) is very important.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2021 23:53:16 GMT
I agree with both doctora and alexandra. I think there is some truth to what doctora is saying though, and I've felt the same. I also think it's important to recognize that for APs that they tend to overextend themselves and understand that doing so is not always the best course of action. but I think alexandra is on the mark for the next step past recognition of such dynamics. for me personally, it was a recognition and acceptance that I did what I could even if it was clumsily, AND that there are some people who want but cannot meet me, or pretend to but cannot meet me where I was. and that is completely ok - it just *is*. Others may not have the ability to do certain things or be certain things, just as *I* do not have the capabilities to be otherwise. It's fair! In recognizing that, like what alexandra said, it doesn't really matter what attachment styles are involved, what/who is toxic or who does what more at the end of the day. I decide for myself what I think is adequate, set my own boundaries (no matter how arbitrary), work on communication skills by educating myself and practicing them, and then move on when the other person doesn't gel with me when they're in their natural element. I do not try to work on relationships anymore, just on myself and then meet the other person where they are. For APs, the trick is boundarying the willingness to work on relationships (to avoid what doctora is saying), and coupling that with the abilities to be effective communicators, selecting better partners, and ending things more quickly (to avoid being toxic partners themselves). The danger comes in thinking that willingness to work on relationships is to only be lauded, rather than acknowledging it could go out of hand and requires some adulting rules around it to be healthy. |
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simon
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Post by simon on Mar 4, 2021 1:17:10 GMT
I think it is important to acknowledge that in doctora's post, she kept using the word "equal". And to her point, I somewhat agree. As someone that tests as 100% secure and has had some experience both with avoidant and anxious partners, the difference is in the avoidant typically wants to remain ignorant, and the anxious was more curious and open to listening. And as an example, an anxious that I was dating recently was very open to hearing my advice and what I saw in our dynamic, and she acknowledged it and took accountability and wanted to learn more about her underlying constructs, towards a path of healing.
But yes, it takes 2 to tango in the classic dance. And although "blame" can be healthy in the role of "assigning responsibility" for certain behaviors and interactions (see Pete Walker), and to go deeper, to assign healthy blame also ensures the inner child is heard and understood and acknowledged within their pain and experience (so that it doesn't turn into self-blame through the typical projection of an avoidant), there is no point to hold onto that blame after the fact of being accurately assigned. There is a Japanese proverb that goes "Forgiving the unrepentant is like drawing pictures on water". So blame away, assign that responsibility, and then let go of the blame... but doesn't mean you have to "forgive"... that's a personal choice. And I think there is a modern mantra to forgive and forget, and although I align with Buddhist principles, at the same time I think that this can be twisted at times more into emotional repression, rather than allowing the healthy process of anger, empowerment, and grieving. Again, see Pete Walker.
But in the end, acceptance is key in the present moment... and the ultimate truth is to ensure that the locus of control is internal, not external. And I think this was the point of the others, to make sure you only worry about your own growth and experience, and be very careful about trying to change others or expect more of them, shifting the locus of control for satisfaction outside of yourself.
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Post by doctora on Mar 4, 2021 5:51:48 GMT
yes @shiningstar and simon ...exactly. I do not think the whole point of getting towards self-acceptance and being comfortable with learning from mistakes is to become indifferent to the opinions and words of others, especially on a forum about avoidant attachment, for people recovering from relationships with them. However, to be clear, just because it struck a chord, doesn't mean I'm angry or upset. What is a forum for if not to discuss? @ simon put it, let's just say blame is synonymous here with accountability, responsibility, contribution, fault, etc. I do not think it is "just" a construct in one's own mind. The way people in relationships are expected to relate to each other is informed by societal values, and the way we, as individuals, frame subjective experiences is shaped by external sources - otherwise, we wouldn't have websites like this, or books like Jeb's. As such, I stand by my original point, which is that I do not agree with the statement that, without fail, the anxious partner shoulders equal contribution to the toxic dynamic. It is true that by staying in a toxic dynamic you're contributing to it, and that it serves no one to repeatedly overextend yourself, and get dragged down into even more toxic behavior. It is also true that there's likely something that needs to be healed to begin with from childhood wounds. This is fair and this is correct. It's also not wrong to say that in the end blame doesn't matter. I mean to that end nothing really matters. We're all stardust in the end, right? I'm not sure the whole "equal" blame thing triggers my fears and insecurities so much as it triggers my sense of injustice. I completely, completely agree with the core of what alexandra said, which is, as simon put, that is is essential to shift the locus of control towards yourself, and that's the ultimate truth and the goal of this personal growth. I totally agree. And that in the end you just have to learn the lesson and do better next time with having boundaries and choosing someone who can meet your needs. As @shiningstar said, ' the trick is boundarying the willingness to work on relationships, and coupling that with the abilities to be effective communicators, selecting better partners, and ending things more quickly (to avoid being toxic partners themselves). The danger comes in thinking that willingness to work on relationships is to only be lauded, rather than acknowledging it could go out of hand and requires some adulting rules around it to be healthy.' 100% agree. It becomes way easier to view things with "neutrality" when the anger no longer serves you...and that's an awesome place to be. But just because you're past the anger stage doesn't actually mean that your ex wasn't mostly at fault in what happened with you two. It just means it affects you less now, and so, in hindsight, you can unaffectedly compare your actions then with how you'd behave now when faced with the same situation, and may (mistakenly, IMO) figure you contributed to it equally since you weren't as secure or weren't as aware. This current lack of anger doesn't mean you weren't wronged or treated poorly then. It just means you are over it. You yourself admit that you get my point of view, which I sense meant that at some point when processing your own breakup, you needed to go through a phase where you sensed the injustice in what had happened. This is exactly what simon was saying, with you can assign blame, but let it go... I think that rushing the "letting things go" may accidentally encourage people to repress, or not trust, really valid emotions. I also want to say that keeping score isn't always about insecure attachment, as everyone keeps score to some degree. Family members, friends, roommates, coworkers. It's a subtle but legitimate boundary detection device. I swept my score-keeping under the rug when I was behaving and thinking more anxious-preoccupiedly...with everyone. You say that having a bad character in addition to being a DA is something different altogether. Maybe - but being an extreme DA is so, so often basically synonymous with having a lot of really shitty qualities in interpersonal relationships. Lack of empathy, self absorption, disrespect, lack of follow through with promises, immaturity, the superiority complex, the inability to level with others, the feeling burdened by a loved one's neediness. DAs especially - not FAs, if we're gonna be super categorical, apparently have inflated high self esteem (whether its 'real' or not is irrelevant), and thus, when triggered (which of course is a lot in a romantic relationship) behave narcissistically (even if they don't have full blown personality disorders). When you literally repress pain, guilt, attachment and discomfort, you repress the things that make us grow as humans. So yeah, you're gonna suck after a while. So just to be clear, I think all of us are in agreement here about the big points, and I don't disagree with the core of what you're saying. In my own situation, I can honestly say that "keeping score", recognizing that my ex contributed a little more than I did to the shittiness, is not making me more angry at my ex, but LESS. It allows me to be more accepting of the situation and to feel more like I let myself down than anything else. It feels truer to me. So anyway, sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, and I think simon put it, 'there is a modern mantra to forgive and forget, and although I align with Buddhist principles, at the same time I think that this can be twisted at times more into emotional repression, rather than allowing the healthy process of anger, empowerment, and grieving.' This is why this whole thing struck a chord...especially bc theoracle 's breakup seems pretty fresh. I also think it's somewhat important to not assign "equal" blame because the outcome of the breakup is very often not equal...at all. The avoidant partner can behave (and maybe even feel) like they are unscathed by the breakup, whereas the anxious preoccupied partner is often left reeling. Yes, this may even out with time, as everything gets further away in the rear view mirror for both....but not necessarily. |
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Post by anne12 on Mar 4, 2021 7:34:33 GMT
jebkinnison.boards.net/thread/1161/set-free-forgiveI have been studying our relationship with anger for a while. Where I come from anger is put in the shadow. Expecially womens anger. Anger can be a collective shadow It can be a cultural shadow in some countries (Ex. in Northern Europe anger is put in the shadow and people behave more controlled when they are getting angry - some people cant even feel their anger), while people in Southern Europe/Latin America ect. are more expressive with their body and with their anger). It can be a personal shadow (what did you learn about anger in your childhood) It can be because of the way you were raised It can be because of gender differencies. in some countries boys are (only) allowed to show anger (boys dont cry) and girls are (only) allowed to cry/are raised to be a "good girl". Most books and courses mentions how to deal with agressive anger, but theres not much information/books about how to handle passive anger ect. - expecially for women or passive men. There are 4 different types of unhealthy anger. People can have a mix of different anger patterns - with different people, in different situations. Some people have an agressive angerpattern at home with their kids or with their partner, because it is more "safe", and they can have an passive anger pattern at work/with their boss/colleges ect. Some people shows agressive anger when they are driving, because it is more "safe" driving in their car, where they are "protected" and can rage against other drivers in traffic. Leonard Jacobsen decribes an anger meditation in his book the journey into now Maybe you have been the cool girl in your relationship ect. or used spiritual bypassing, blind compassion instead of getting angry and setting boundaries/making your needs clear.... Theres a lot of women who knows about the cool/chill girl in themselves... The cool girl, premature forgiveness, blind compassion, spiritual bypassing jebkinnisonforum.com/post/38962/Or maybe you can see yourself in the passive agressive anger pattern . where you just say fine, whatever, ect. because you dont know how to stand by yourself - you havent learned it as a child? jebkinnisonforum.com/post/24116/
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2021 12:52:46 GMT
yes @shiningstar and simon ...exactly. I do not think the whole point of getting towards self-acceptance and being comfortable with learning from mistakes is to become indifferent to the opinions and words of others, especially on a forum about avoidant attachment, for people recovering from relationships with them. However, to be clear, just because it struck a chord, doesn't mean I'm angry or upset. What is a forum for if not to discuss? @ simon put it, let's just say blame is synonymous here with accountability, responsibility, contribution, fault, etc. I do not think it is "just" a construct in one's own mind. The way people in relationships are expected to relate to each other is informed by societal values, and the way we, as individuals, frame subjective experiences is shaped by external sources - otherwise, we wouldn't have websites like this, or books like Jeb's. As such, I stand by my original point, which is that I do not agree with the statement that, without fail, the anxious partner shoulders equal contribution to the toxic dynamic. It is true that by staying in a toxic dynamic you're contributing to it, and that it serves no one to repeatedly overextend yourself, and get dragged down into even more toxic behavior. It is also true that there's likely something that needs to be healed to begin with from childhood wounds. This is fair and this is correct. It's also not wrong to say that in the end blame doesn't matter. I mean to that end nothing really matters. We're all stardust in the end, right? I'm not sure the whole "equal" blame thing triggers my fears and insecurities so much as it triggers my sense of injustice. I completely, completely agree with the core of what alexandra said, which is, as simon put, that is is essential to shift the locus of control towards yourself, and that's the ultimate truth and the goal of this personal growth. I totally agree. And that in the end you just have to learn the lesson and do better next time with having boundaries and choosing someone who can meet your needs. As @shiningstar said, ' the trick is boundarying the willingness to work on relationships, and coupling that with the abilities to be effective communicators, selecting better partners, and ending things more quickly (to avoid being toxic partners themselves). The danger comes in thinking that willingness to work on relationships is to only be lauded, rather than acknowledging it could go out of hand and requires some adulting rules around it to be healthy.' 100% agree. It becomes way easier to view things with "neutrality" when the anger no longer serves you...and that's an awesome place to be. But just because you're past the anger stage doesn't actually mean that your ex wasn't mostly at fault in what happened with you two. It just means it affects you less now, and so, in hindsight, you can unaffectedly compare your actions then with how you'd behave now when faced with the same situation, and may (mistakenly, IMO) figure you contributed to it equally since you weren't as secure or weren't as aware. This current lack of anger doesn't mean you weren't wronged or treated poorly then. It just means you are over it. You yourself admit that you get my point of view, which I sense meant that at some point when processing your own breakup, you needed to go through a phase where you sensed the injustice in what had happened. This is exactly what simon was saying, with you can assign blame, but let it go... I think that rushing the "letting things go" may accidentally encourage people to repress, or not trust, really valid emotions. I also want to say that keeping score isn't always about insecure attachment, as everyone keeps score to some degree. Family members, friends, roommates, coworkers. It's a subtle but legitimate boundary detection device. I swept my score-keeping under the rug when I was behaving and thinking more anxious-preoccupiedly...with everyone. You say that having a bad character in addition to being a DA is something different altogether. Maybe - but being an extreme DA is so, so often basically synonymous with having a lot of really shitty qualities in interpersonal relationships. Lack of empathy, self absorption, disrespect, lack of follow through with promises, immaturity, the superiority complex, the inability to level with others, the feeling burdened by a loved one's neediness. DAs especially - not FAs, if we're gonna be super categorical, apparently have inflated high self esteem (whether its 'real' or not is irrelevant), and thus, when triggered (which of course is a lot in a romantic relationship) behave narcissistically (even if they don't have full blown personality disorders). When you literally repress pain, guilt, attachment and discomfort, you repress the things that make us grow as humans. So yeah, you're gonna suck after a while. So just to be clear, I think all of us are in agreement here about the big points, and I don't disagree with the core of what you're saying. In my own situation, I can honestly say that "keeping score", recognizing that my ex contributed a little more than I did to the shittiness, is not making me more angry at my ex, but LESS. It allows me to be more accepting of the situation and to feel more like I let myself down than anything else. It feels truer to me. So anyway, sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, and I think simon put it, 'there is a modern mantra to forgive and forget, and although I align with Buddhist principles, at the same time I think that this can be twisted at times more into emotional repression, rather than allowing the healthy process of anger, empowerment, and grieving.' This is why this whole thing struck a chord...especially bc theoracle 's breakup seems pretty fresh. I also think it's somewhat important to not assign "equal" blame because the outcome of the breakup is very often not equal...at all. The avoidant partner can behave (and maybe even feel) like they are unscathed by the breakup, whereas the anxious preoccupied partner is often left reeling. Yes, this may even out with time, as everything gets further away in the rear view mirror for both....but not necessarily. I do think that every step of what we've discussed is important in itself. Feeling anger, getting over it, forgiving and forgetting, assigning responsibility, and accepting responsibility - they all have value. I don't think I could be where I am today if I did not fully let myself learn about insecure attachment, felt the anger, blamed him, and also blamed myself. It's true that focusing on the self is KEY to evolving and improving, but I personally would not be able to do that if I haven't undergone that process first. The process allowed me to feel and understand the pointlessness of it all because i've covered all bases - knowledge (attachment styles and interactions, childhood trauma etc), emotion (anger, fear, sadness) and logic (blame, responsibility, rehashing reactions and situation). But after covering all of it, nothing has changed and will change unless I change - that is where my turning point is. I just decided that I'll be different from that moment on cos I'm done exploring the past and there's nothing left to do. I think that many of us who felt that we've completed this process, in hindsight, didn't need to have undergone it because it was pretty pointless. Hence the standard reply of focusing on ourselves, and highlighting thoughts/actions that are actually more constructive. But I think you are right in the risks of rushing the process - not having undergone the process to release the emotions and thoughts that trap us in that insecure state only traps us in false positivity and enlightenment, without truly developing empathy and respect for the other party (even if you blame them, like I do haha). However, without the constant reminders of the elders of the forum  , the risk is getting trapped in the process and not evolving. |
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Post by serenity on Mar 5, 2021 4:05:03 GMT
This is such an incredible thread; I read through it all today and just wanted to say that you guys feel like family to me...we've all endured so much pain, more than most of us were ever equipped to deal with. And look at us...we're like Iron Butterflies, transforming extreme pain into wisdom, strength, and compassion; not allowing ourselves to become victims. I think these are rare qualities BTW, and I am so proud of every one of you <3
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 5, 2021 15:59:01 GMT
I think @shiningstar has raised some incredibly valid points. I only started to make progress when I let go of “blame” and started to view myself from a place of compassion and curiosity. I was not completely over B and I still to this day have moments where I “miss” what he represented, but I no longer look at the relationship from a perspective of score keeping...I can see clearly where he and I both triggered each other and how each of us brought our past fears into the dynamic. My journey has been to look back at where it all started for me....with my mom and dad...and as I have learned about the dysfunction that existed in those relationships...I have been able to add new tools to address triggers. It really has helped in all my relationships.
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Post by theoracle on Sept 17, 2021 15:52:29 GMT
I’m not sad at all, I’m really not. Just baffled. Turns out my darling ex moved in with his new partner already after being together for 6 months.. The only thing I really feel is anger. How can someone who led me on for 3 years and someone who escaped two days after moving in together be so committed to this new person so fast. It makes it look like I was the problem and he just didn’t want to be with me but stuck around and wasted my time anyway.
Sorry for the rant guys, I just wanted to share cos it’s super confusing.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 17, 2021 16:27:20 GMT
theoracle, his continued behavior really doesn't reflect on you at all. I think it's right in line with what an unaware FA would do, be all over the place in a way. Things with you weren't right for him and he never handled or communicated that in a healthy or respectful way and yes, wasted your time. Now he's either with someone more avoidant than you and swinging anxious AND / OR he's with someone that maybe things do seem like they're going better with... so, being incredibly reactive (as most unaware FAs are) and continuing to have lousy / unhealthy boundaries, he jumps in fast and hard. I've seen this before, and it rarely lasts long-term. Occasionally, but rarely. And even if it does last, it doesn't mean it's healthy or functional or what you'd have even wanted in a romantic relationship. It's really crappy and perfectly okay to feel angry. But try to remember to depersonalize his behavior because it's about him not you.
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 17, 2021 16:27:45 GMT
I’m not sad at all, I’m really not. Just baffled. Turns out my darling ex moved in with his new partner already after being together for 6 months.. The only thing I really feel is anger. How can someone who led me on for 3 years and someone who escaped two days after moving in together be so committed to this new person so fast. It makes it look like I was the problem and he just didn’t want to be with me but stuck around and wasted my time anyway. Sorry for the rant guys, I just wanted to share cos it’s super confusing. Just because he moved in with her doesn’t mean he is committed….it also has no statement about your relationship with him unless you interpret it that way. The guy I dated for 10 months who had 1 foot in and 1 foot out…married the next woman he dated. At first, I too got caught up in comparisons of why could he do that with her and not with me and what that said about my ability to keep a relationship…but then I realized that all of that was in my head…..and in the end…it says nothing about me…it just shows that he and I were not a good match. How do you hear updates about your ex? Maybe you need to cut all those avenues and simply move forward. |
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, the risk is getting trapped in the process and not evolving. 