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Post by tnr9 on May 6, 2021 18:37:49 GMT
And oh yes anne12 I am apparently harsh when I don't realize it myself . I am feeling just matter of fact when I confront issues, but apparently that comes off pretty rough. I try to keep it to the facts, I don't insult or anything like that but I just sound hard? I know he is better at being softer. That's true . When he isn't triggered that is. Then he's pretty aggressive. We need to learn how to work with our temperaments I guess. I read that men oftentimes respond better when you start with what you appreciate/like and then speak to the problem....like...”I love when we spend time cuddling while watching a movie. I feel so safe and loved in those moments because we are taking time with each other and that feels very supportive towards me. I notice, however that when we are more intimate with each other it is very quick and I end up feeling a loss of that connection I feel when we are cuddling. I was hoping we could brainstorm together on ways we can bring more time into our intimate moments.”
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Post by tnr9 on May 6, 2021 18:39:44 GMT
Using “us” instead of “you” shows him that you want to collaborate on the issue instead of putting him in a defensive stance. Just a thought,
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Post by alexandra on May 6, 2021 19:08:29 GMT
I'm going to try a stab here at some things to consider. It will be long but I'll attempt to establish a framework for how to divvy up the dynamic so you can think through your side, his side, and the relationship (how both sides combine), which hopefully gives you some ideas for how to deal with this without overfunctioning and taking on more than your share of the responsibility.
I do think you're right that this is a dynamics problem created on both sides. Which doesn't necessarily make it toxic if you're both in earnest open to learning how to hear each other and committed to figuring out how to work through it (even if it involves bigger picture introspecting and probably some change).
I agree that (on the basis of you describing yourself as DA), you're probably holding your needs in without expressing yourself for too long and then when it all comes out at once it can sound surprising and you're already far into an aroused state about whatever issue because it's been stewing for so long. It's a good observation on your part. So that would mean that on your side, the issue has already escalated and will be much more difficult to fix because your partner still has to catch up. In the case of AP or FA, most criticism is very triggering and will create defensiveness to protect the self (which gets layered on top of "catching up") rather than neutral and open-minded problem-solving. Which I believe explains why you fight and then he eventually comes around once his nervous system calms down.
Getting triggered in response to you bringing up an issue is his problem, not yours, and happens for two reasons (neither of which are your fault): 1. Anxious triggering is a flooded nervous system response to a fear of abandonment. No matter what the actual issue is at hand, that fear is generally the underlying problem at the core of it all. In this case, you may be telling him you're not happy with this aspect of your sex life because you want to fix it, but he's probably hearing you say if he can't do a better job then you could leave him. Again, how he hears you isn't your fault if you're just bringing up a problem and not threatening to leave every time you have a disagreement, which I'm sure you're not. But it's very possible someone important earlier in his life DID handle issues that way, which is why he overreacts in fear and also why he's incorrectly learned that can be an appropriate go-to response to fighting (I believe in past posts you said he's threatened to break up before). If I'm right about this happening, he's probably not consciously aware of it and hasn't made the connection yet. So my guess is he doesn't realize he's projecting onto you instead of sticking to the problem at hand when he does this.
2. AP/FA don't trust themselves. They depend on external validation to feel whole and get emotional regulation. Again, this is his problem not yours, but it's the other attachment-related reason he gets triggered by criticism. AP only trust others not themselves, FA don't trust others or themselves but when leaning anxious and triggered that way will still trust others more than themselves in that moment and desperately seek reconnection. Both types learned from inconsistent or scary caretakers earlier in life that others > self, and like DA they both internalized that they deserve not getting their needs met. But unlike DA, they don't get constant neglect. They get intermittent reinforcement of needs met sometimes. So instead of deciding to rely on themselves they learned to respond with, "I can influence the other person if I find the magic formula and control them to get my needs met." In summary, to overcome this mindset and depersonalize conflict so it doesn't feel to them that they'll lose connection with someone which will cause them to feel they'll get abandoned and die, they need to learn how to build self-esteem, self-acceptance, and trust themselves and that they'll be okay even if there's an argument (or a breakup). Which makes it his issue, not yours.
So for those two reasons, in your approach you can be calm and sensitive in bringing up issues so problems seem less scary and like you're leaving, and you can even say something like "I'm here and not going anywhere" (which should quiet the abandonment fear) "but I also want us to work together to address my valid needs, because I miss you." But you don't want to be doing so much bending over to accommodate those two drivers of anxious triggering because those are the anxious partner's projection and issues that you aren't responsible for. There still needs to be a boundary or you're getting co-dependent trying to regulate them.
Coming back to your side, I'm not avoidant but there's been plenty of other threads on this board discussing avoidants feeling triggered but not necessarily realizing it. That's often described as low energy, tired, sluggish, maybe numbness or some depression, wanting to be alone but due to feeling disconnected from themselves. And eventually realizing something was wrong (which may be life stress and totally unrelated to a relationship), and the avoidant attachment style kicked in with the nervous system shutting down in self-protection to ignore the problem causing it. So let's say this is happening to you and it has zero to do with your romantic relationship. We're still in a very stressful pandemic, and I don't know anything else about your life. But are there other factors draining you, and do you not have good coping mechanisms for that stress so you're detaching from those around you and conserving energy? Or maybe the communication and intimacy issues with him are a problem on top of that and not just a projection of unrelated stress? Just something to think about when you're sorting out how much of the distance between you you're feeling is coming from unrelated aspects in your life and how much is coming from real relationship stressors.
The last point I'll bring up on this already way too many words response is sex can be tricky for insecure attachers in general. It's not even a gendered thing. Anxious leaning attachers may unconsciously use sex to reaffirm to themselves that their partners want them --> their partner is still connected and attached and isn't thinking about leaving them. So sex temporarily quiets anxiety and fear (only temporarily because the real issue is still insecurity within themselves that the partner can't fix), and that may be why it's so important to him... but if he's FA and ALSO fears engulfment then quickies may allow him not to feel overwhelmed by the closeness and shut down or distance avoidantly. Again, if my theory is right, he probably won't be consciously aware of that. But that may be why it seems like he's not listening to you and is in fact pushing more and more quickies when you fight. Because avoidants who are trying to retain some unconscious distance in a long-term relationship also tend to lose interest in sex over time without understanding why (also not conscious, but it can be a common disconnection for DA or an FA leaning avoidant, and if that's happening for you and has even happened for you before with other partners it's on your side to work on), and that can push someone feeling anxious to push harder and harder for sex as reassurance that the relationship isn't deteriorating. Which, of course, makes the other person feel unheard and resentful and pushes them further away... eventually that's a bad boundary dynamic that can become toxic if left unaddressed by both partners.
I'm hoping some of this helps sort out or define which aspects of the dynamics are whose responsibility to address and deal with (the "you" problems that are your issues to deal with, the "him" problems that are on him to deal with and not your responsibility, and the "you together" problems in the dynamic to communicate and problem-solve together with respect). A lot of this is about learning and practicing healthy boundaries and communication at the core, but that goes together with potentially doing individual work to have a healthy sense of self and mutual comfort in feeling secure enough to be either independent or interdependent. It's not as deceptively simple as your sex drives aren't lining up and that's a sensitive topic in our society, but the other good news is you already knew that which is why you are looking for answers.
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Post by alexandra on May 6, 2021 19:13:22 GMT
One other thought. That's in part due to the long length of my message lol. When FA get triggered, they can have difficulty focusing due to getting overwhelmed. So simple, direct, and calm communication helps. A wall of words does not
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Post by alexandra on May 7, 2021 0:54:39 GMT
I think it's good that you're trying to objectively recognize and take ownership for habits or defense mechanisms you may have that are not productive for the kind of romantic relationship you want. It's difficult for all three insecure attachment styles to be vulnerable, authentic, and straightforward without practice (which helps recondition the nervous system). My suggestion of where to start if you're DA is, there were probably times in your life that you tried to speak up and it never helped because the people you were speaking to couldn't receive whatever you were saying. Maybe they ignored it, maybe they didn't give you the chance to express yourself in the first place, maybe they reacted with anger or passive aggressive disapproval... but you learned speaking up didn't get you what you needed so why continue to put yourself out there trying if it just hurt every time without accomplishing anything? Especially if you were a kid going through that, it's easier to disconnect from your needs or assume you need to fill them all yourself rather than risking more pain and rejection every time. So you may stop speaking up honestly, or if you do speak up you don't tell the whole truth about your needs, as maybe it's less painful that way because your needs can't be fully rejected if they aren't shared so there's less risk-- and then that becomes your norm and your muscles for minimizing your needs get flexed while being vulnerable and feeling connected to yourself and the other person falls out of practice.
That all being said, I again don't think it's fair for you to take on all the blame here. Yes, you know you have some stuff to work on and you're figuring out what that is, which is GREAT! But if your partner has an insecure attachment style too, he is very likely to still get defensive about issues no matter how you express yourself until he too does the level of introspecting about himself and healthy problem-solving and communication that you're currently doing. So you two need to be able to navigate this and grow together, you can't shift the needle and dynamic entirely by changing yourself. Though any changes you make may give him the space and inspiration to respond accordingly and hopefully your conversations will get less mutually triggering in turn.
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Post by alexandra on May 8, 2021 17:59:38 GMT
I'd really like for him to feel secure but of course I can understand why he doesn't. That's where I get into trouble, I tend to project that. For some reason I think everyone around me is avoidant unless they are really OTT and obviously needy. I'm always surprised to find out they aren't just like me. Catching up on the last couple pages, I'm glad you're really digging in to this and having some good (what I like to call) epiphanies! I agree that therapy doesn't always work if you haven't found the right therapist, and I also personally found a lot more use in becoming secure through internet resources. I think knowing how to ask the questions you need help with can really help someone finally find the right therapist, and I had zero idea where to even start before finding certain internet resources so my experience with therapy wasn't helpful. Though I also think if I'd tried again with a good professional once I knew what I was seeking help with would have made my process much faster! I wanted to make a couple comments though, especially on the above quotes. First, going back to what I'd replied earlier. You'd mentioned you didn't know your bf's attachment style but maybe it was FA, so I went with that. But I knew from your descriptions of how he gets triggered, the way he argues, how he repairs things with you after, and that he's broken up with you multiple times and is always concerned you'll break up with him that he definitely has some sort of anxious attachment style (whether AP or FA). A secure person wouldn't handle conflict the way he does. That's why I wrote a bunch about the anxious side of things. That being said, this goes back to not overly blaming yourself. One reason I didn't mention about why it's important not to do that is taking on more than one's fair share of responsibility for interpersonal conflict results in one believing one has more control over the situation than one actually does. Ie if this is all my fault, then it's all within my control to fix it. You may be triggering your boyfriend with your avoidance, but he had an insecure attachment style before he met you. The reasons he doesn't feel secure are not all related to you and existed well before you met. You are not making him insecure, he makes himself insecure. The way you've worded that you understand why he doesn't feel secure implies you think he'd be more secure if you are and change your behavior. That's only half the story, though. I think what you're introspecting here overall is valuable and can only help you if you do change somewhat and incorporate it into your life, if you're becoming more secure within yourself. But you see how that's all internally driven from you, even if you're inspired by your relationship to start that work. You're trying to sort through and heal your own pain and improve your relationship so that it's less painful. He's going to need to do the same. I'm not saying this to be harsh or minimize your process. I'm saying this because part of healing insecure attachment is accepting what you do have control of and responsibility for (your own agency, behavior, and responses) and what you don't (pretty much everything else). That's important in establishing a healthier sense of self. It's also extremely, extremely important to be able to accept yourself and where you are, and that's a struggle for all attachment styles. Where you are right now isn't perfect and may be painful, which is why you seek to change. But it's also okay to be where you are and not beat yourself up about it and take on too much blame or give yourself an illusion of more control than you have. There's reasons, no fault of your own, that you developed an insecure attachment style, and yes, in a way that does create a handicap until you work through it. That style didn't develop overnight, it took years, and it takes time to undo as well. That doesn't mean that as soon as you come into awareness you need to take on all the blame and feel terrible. Feeling bad may help be motivating to continue your journey, which is good, but just sharing my personal experience that accepting where you are at any given point and it being okay to be you (even as you strive for change) is also important. My other comment on the above is your second realization I quoted is also really important, and I did the same thing and it unlocked another big step towards security for me. I also had a mindset that I assumed everyone had the same motivations as me. As AP, I assumed everyone prioritized relationships and finding love and companionship as much as I did, and that everyone would act in kind because most people have an inner logic and act rationally within that. I know not everyone is the same and have different characters and personalities, but I thought the main drivers of the human condition were all the same, and everyone would share a mindset that I know now is actually AP. And since I only dated avoidants, this confused the heck out of me because I couldn't make sense of the behaviors and our conflicts if we all just wanted the same thing. I really sat down with my FA ex and had a lot of conversations about how he thinks about things, approaches things, what he wanted, and I listened, and it was SO different than mine. That opened the door for me to start to truly understand different attachment style mindsets and how all the styles interact with each other, the patterned dynamics that come out of different pairings and why. Which in turn eventually helped me depersonalize issues and helped me with better communication and conflict resolution with each style. So I'm emphasizing how important your discovery is! I'm not in agreement about the enneagram paper. I think it's trying too hard to overgeneralize and map against something I have too many anecdotal examples doesn't work. It lists my enneagram as DA, and I've always had incredibly low avoidance (but I used to be textbook AP). My boyfriend's is listed as FA, and he's secure but used to be DA. From my experience dating textbook FAs, he's not FA at all. If it works for your current situation and is helping, run with it, but I'd limit using the paper to categorize others. If it's giving you a better general sense of the interactions and dynamics between insecure attachment style types, that's the value I'd take out of it instead of using it to map attachment styles to those enneagram types. My two cents. I also think this entire thread will be helpful for others and hope you don't delete it
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Post by alexandra on May 9, 2021 0:38:04 GMT
Sometimes if people threaten to break up without meaning it, it's called a protest behavior. This basically means they're indirectly hoping you'll show you won't abandon them by chasing them back, reassuring you want them, and soothing their fears. It's a show of pushing you away in hopes it'll do the opposite and force a reconnection. This probably was learned earlier in life, when the only way to get some family member's attention was acting out or acting angry. It's a very dysfunctional tactic, and rewarding it creates a co-dependent dynamic, which you don't want. So it's good that you laid out a boundary, that his go to for a fight can't be to threaten breaking up as it erodes your trust and relationship foundation.
You can look up "protest behaviors" and learn some more. But you should also be talking to your boyfriend about this. You're clearly doing your half of the work, is he also doing his? If you find a list of protest behaviors, for example, can you go through together (at a neutral time, not when either of you is already triggered), and identify which seem familiar that either one of you does? Then you can add something to the rules about maybe calling out if it happens during a disagreement and having a time out at that point to calm down. I'm not sure if that's the best idea, since I'm not a therapist, but asking us to read his mind so you can anticipate him won't be as useful as him being as actively engaged in working on himself and the relationship as you are.
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Post by alexandra on May 9, 2021 0:42:18 GMT
You can also both each try taking an online attachment assessment so you can feel more confident about the dynamic and not position yourself as the only problem in your relationships. Insecure attachers usually attract and are attracted to other insecure attachers, it feels familiar. This one is good, ~60%+ secure means an overall secure attachment style. dianepooleheller.com/attachment-test/Edit: even if he is secure, positioning yourself as less than anyone else is not fair to you or anyone else, just because you may have to learn some better tools doesn't make you less than anyone. Test link is just to help you identify the dynamic you're trying to address properly.
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Post by alexandra on May 9, 2021 1:43:14 GMT
@introvert, that makes sense. You should poke around the support boards here for AP and FA and skim through some of those posts and responses to get a start. I'd also recommend looking up Thais Gibson's videos on YouTube on anxious attachment.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2021 2:48:07 GMT
Thank you alexandra! I will check it out. Do you mind if I ask questions as I go?
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Post by tnr9 on May 9, 2021 3:31:35 GMT
Sometimes if people threaten to break up without meaning it, it's called a protest behavior. This basically means they're indirectly hoping you'll show you won't abandon them by chasing them back, reassuring you want them, and soothing their fears. It's a show of pushing you away in hopes it'll do the opposite and force a reconnection. This probably was learned earlier in life, when the only way to get some family member's attention was acting out or acting angry. It's a very dysfunctional tactic, and rewarding it creates a co-dependent dynamic, which you don't want. So it's good that you laid out a boundary, that his go to for a fight can't be to threaten breaking up as it erodes your trust and relationship foundation. You can look up "protest behaviors" and learn some more. But you should also be talking to your boyfriend about this. You're clearly doing your half of the work, is he also doing his? If you find a list of protest behaviors, for example, can you go through together (at a neutral time, not when either of you is already triggered), and identify which seem familiar that either one of you does? Then you can add something to the rules about maybe calling out if it happens during a disagreement and having a time out at that point to calm down. I'm not sure if that's the best idea, since I'm not a therapist, but asking us to read his mind so you can anticipate him won't be as useful as him being as actively engaged in working on himself and the relationship as you are. Yes, he is working on his stuff too. We had agreed to find and print out a list of fair fighting rules and that's an example of how we are trying to work together . Of course threatening the relationship was on that list- as were some behaviors of mine and some of his. Some we both do. He's been forthcoming in owning what's his in that regard. I came here to do some inner work specifically on my avoidance and blind spots. I anticipate having further conversation with him about attachment. However, before I do I wonder if I can bounce things around here so I understand enough to support but not enable. I don't have a clear view of what it's like to be AP and I think it might be helpful to gain some understanding from aware AP's so that I can understand and maybe see what I'm not seeing. I don't want to read his mind so much as understand how my avoidance interplays with anxiousness, from an AP point of view. Does that make sense? I look forward to having these convos with him, also. I am an AP leaning FA so I can help with questions you may have.
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Post by alexandra on May 9, 2021 4:28:09 GMT
Thank you alexandra! I will check it out. Do you mind if I ask questions as I go? Of course, people are always happy to help here.
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Post by anne12 on May 9, 2021 17:56:38 GMT
well, you are introverted and he is extroverted The sensitivity to loud noices and many people can be a hsp trait - jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39781/ - jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39808/ (maybe you already know this ?) You are parasympathetic leaning, he is sympathetic leaning (also when having sex) His a night owl you are a morning person or ? He is half death and you are overly sensitive to sounds.... Opposite attracts
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 0:47:13 GMT
well, you are introverted and he is extroverted The sensitivity to loud noices and many people can be a hsp trait - jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39781/ - jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39808/ (maybe you already know this ?) You are parasympathetic leaning, he is sympathetic leaning (also when having sex) His a night owl you are a morning person or ? He is half death and you are overly sensitive to sounds.... Opposite attracts So true! And maybe HSP, I'm not sure what that entails. I will have to see.
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Post by alexandra on May 10, 2021 6:14:49 GMT
I know someone both HSP and AP. Even though that's a more common combination, the two pieces are still separate and interact rather than one causing another. In that specific example, their HSP is tied to being mildly on the autism spectrum. I like how Anne put that "Your attatchment style is an adapted behavior. Your hsp trait is something that you are born with." That accurately describes this person as well.
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