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Post by krolle on May 17, 2021 6:05:45 GMT
Thank you so much for the input and kind words guys. It means a lot. Even though you don't know me or my specific situation I must admit it's a very nice feeling to talk to people who can at least partially validate your experience and link it to their own. Plus you seem to have an incredibly impressive knowledge around the subjects.
Simon, it would appear our experiences are somewhat similar regarding that relationship you had. Although I didn't say it overtly, I think you seem to have intuitively guessed that my support network is limited here mainly due to moving to a new place. I moved away from home to be with her. And once I was isolated things started to go down hill. But I do think the stress of that, and her increased control of me also brought out the avoidant part of my FA, and that's one of the things I keep going on about blaming myself for. That it was MY deactivating behaviour at fault which triggered her aggressive outbursts, without me even being consciously aware....or maybe I was just gaslit too lol.....I don't even know anymore. Did you find much hostility from her during or after your break up?
With regards to dysfunctional “patterns” across relationships. Then I would say just a fairly obvious, frustrating (for both parties) FA push, pull dynamic many of you are familiar with. This was the first relationship I had been in where I had considered I may have been in serious danger or anything. So nothing ever that hostile.
Regarding your comment on therapy Alexandra . I would love to start. And don't deny it would be a massive help. But unfortunately I can't afford it right now. So I'm trying to do what I can for my mental health with books, scientific journals, podcasts, talking to friends, discussing things with you guys etc, until it's an option. Also looking into meds as discussed with tnr9.
I know that can't substitute working with a genuine mental health practitioner but it's what I have to work with at the moment. And I'm truly very grateful to be able to "soundboard" as you said with other people interested in their personal development. I'm quiet isolated here a ways from home and have been struggling to meet my emotional needs for a while, so it's just nice hearing about your experiences and talking about my own.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2021 13:34:25 GMT
Thank you so much for the input and kind words guys. It means a lot. Even though you don't know me or my specific situation I must admit it's a very nice feeling to talk to people who can at least partially validate your experience and link it to their own. Plus you seem to have an incredibly impressive knowledge around the subjects. Simon, it would appear our experiences are somewhat similar regarding that relationship you had. Although I didn't say it overtly, I think you seem to have intuitively guessed that my support network is limited here mainly due to moving to a new place. I moved away from home to be with her. And once I was isolated things started to go down hill. But I do think the stress of that, and her increased control of me also brought out the avoidant part of my FA, and that's one of the things I keep going on about blaming myself for. That it was MY deactivating behaviour at fault which triggered her aggressive outbursts, without me even being consciously aware....or maybe I was just gaslit too lol.....I don't even know anymore. Did you find much hostility from her during or after your break up? With regards to dysfunctional “patterns” across relationships. Then I would say just a fairly obvious, frustrating (for both parties) FA push, pull dynamic many of you are familiar with. This was the first relationship I had been in where I had considered I may have been in serious danger or anything. So nothing ever that hostile. Regarding your comment on therapy Alexandra . I would love to start. And don't deny it would be a massive help. But unfortunately I can't afford it right now. So I'm trying to do what I can for my mental health with books, scientific journals, podcasts, talking to friends, discussing things with you guys etc, until it's an option. Also looking into meds as discussed with tnr9. I know that can't substitute working with a genuine mental health practitioner but it's what I have to work with at the moment. And I'm truly very grateful to be able to "soundboard" as you said with other people interested in their personal development. I'm quiet isolated here a ways from home and have been struggling to meet my emotional needs for a while, so it's just nice hearing about your experiences and talking about my own. If you are wondering about whether you caused her outbursts, I think learning about boundaries is a great place to begin to make sense of things for yourself, and also an area to strengthen so that situations don't become so confusing. Good information about internal and external boundaries will help you understand when yours are being crossed, recognize the boundaries of others, and also will illuminate personal responsibility of all involved. Unhealthy partners tend to trigger each other, but that isn't to say they are responsible for each other's behaviors. Understanding and growth provides choices to each. We all are responsible for our triggers, reactions, behaviors. Including her. I am sure there are good resources on boundaries in the general forum, and also wanted to point you to a very educational thread there called Healing Disorganized FA style, if you haven't seen it yet. These things can become blurry to any of us working to overcome insecure attachment. There is so much great information and practical help available, so even without a therapist you can make great progress. |
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Post by krolle on May 17, 2021 16:27:02 GMT
I appreciate the input introvert. sensible advice given compassionately is always welcomed. I am currently working my way through that thread you mentioned and the exercises described by annieb (it was recommended earlier in this thread). I will update my experiences on those as I work my way through and give an honest appraisal for the benefit of anyone reading.
I also just ordered a book on boundaries from Amazon, so we'll see how that works out.
However, I don't think my boundaries have been TOO bad historically. Sure, they could be better as with many self confessed people pleasers. But, the main practical problem I have found is that your boundaries are only as good as your ability to enforce them.
In my particular situation my boundaries caved frequently because I did not feel I had the recourse to uphold them. One example I could give is getting into arguments during the winter time. As I mentioned in my previous post I moved away from home to be with my partner, so often didn't really have another place to go if things got bad. between the choice of standing up for myself or being kicked out in -20C temperatures I thought it better to simply acquiesce most of the time to the demands placed on me, fair or otherwise.
I'm sure different examples of struggling to uphold boundaries resonate with different people. usually because there's some kind of leverage or control one person has over the other.
I recently commented on tnr9's post which I believe she did a decent job of negotiating boundaries.
Maybe some of you guys have an example of your own to give in which you successfully navigated a difficult boundary situation?
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simon
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Post by simon on May 17, 2021 17:12:14 GMT
Simon, it would appear our experiences are somewhat similar regarding that relationship you had. Although I didn't say it overtly, I think you seem to have intuitively guessed that my support network is limited here mainly due to moving to a new place. Did you find much hostility from her during or after your break up? Yes, extreme hostility and coldness... as there were also multiple abusive and devaluing outbursts along the way (you're disgusting, you're so desperate, I wish I never met you, etc.). Although it doesn't feel good, it's not personal... just a need to deactivate and devalue the person that is a source of pain. Likely coping mechanism from childhood, when the family or those that hurt us didn't seem to care, so if we told ourselves that they weren't important to us, or that we were adopted or from a different family, then we can fool ourselves into thinking that their actions don't hurt us, since we don't care about them. Repetition compulsion. And yes, I can understand the fawning response... not wanting to be kicked out in -20 weather. Damn, that's cold, where are you? And I will echo what introvert said, that although the guide of a therapist is great, there are now so many great resources online that you can do a lot of work yourself, and you seem to be driven and motivated and self-aware in the right ways to make the most of that. |
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Post by anne12 on May 17, 2021 18:10:27 GMT
@introvert Yes theres also something about boundaries and the 4 different unhealthy angerpatterns (aggressive, passive-agressive, passive and projective agressive) ect. in the general forum. How to deal with your own angerpatterns, shame bottoms, other people's angerpatterns and what to do with narcs. Some of the best teaching I have ever had!! jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39239/ - inner/outer boundaries |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2021 18:48:02 GMT
@introvert Yes theres also something about boundaries and the 4 different unhealthy angerpatterns (aggressive, passive-agressive, passive and protective agressive) ect. in the general forum. How to deal with your own angerpatterns, shame bottoms, other people's angerpatterns and what to do with narcs. Some of the best teaching I have ever had!! jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39239/ - inner/outer boundaries I am very very thankful that you share it here. Absolutely life changing stuff. |
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Post by alexandra on May 17, 2021 19:19:41 GMT
Regarding your comment on therapy Alexandra . I would love to start. And don't deny it would be a massive help. But unfortunately I can't afford it right now. So I'm trying to do what I can for my mental health with books, scientific journals, podcasts, talking to friends, discussing things with you guys etc, until it's an option. Also looking into meds as discussed with tnr9. I know that can't substitute working with a genuine mental health practitioner but it's what I have to work with at the moment. I actually overcame my issues without therapy, using online resources and strong commitment to sticking with figuring everything out, it just took longer than I imagine it might have with a good therapist because I didn't know where to start. But my comment on therapy was specifically in regards to whether or not you have a PD. I don't want to tell you you don't have one, even though it sounds to me so far like you don't, but I don't know you. So if that is seriously in question, the only way to know for sure would be get a diagnosis, which would change the treatment and management you'd need versus healing attachment wounding. You can try looking at checklists for BPD and NPD online, and if they're not resonating with you (even if they describe some of your exes), then it makes sense to start your focus on the FA and do what your resources allow. |
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Post by tnr9 on May 17, 2021 20:27:09 GMT
krolle...my first therapist worked on a sliding scale based on income.
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simon
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Post by simon on May 17, 2021 20:59:17 GMT
And Thais Gibson and her Personal Development School have a lot of good resources that many people have used for attachment healing and a wealth of other life aspects, and offer monthly low payment "scholarship" options if you email them and ask.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2021 22:14:42 GMT
From what I'm reading, most of the posters if not al have a rather compassionate view of ALL the insecure attachment styles, not just the one they originally have or have resolved. And, the resources offered have that compassionate, reparative approach as well. As in, it isn't avoidants or anxious or disorganized that are villains- each have their own set of pain and challenges to work through, and none of the insecure types are indicators of underlying PD in themselves.
I have done some reading around and seen plenty of umbrage about one type or another, and people having compassion for only their type in a rather selfish or short sighted way- but the trend SEEMS to be one that is balanced and compassionate and helpful here. ( So, if I ever seem to be delivering information in a way that is hurtful, Id like to explain that I am not intending that. )
I'm avoidant (dismissively so, more than fearfully so) in a relationship that entails a lot of love and growth, with some challenges, with a more anxiously inclined man. So, I see the idea of "work on your issues" from the standpoint of identifying ways in which your original needs weren't met, what your physiological and emotional response was to that, and seek new , gentle, reparative experiences with yourself and with others in order to heal those things up.
We all as humans have the same basic needs and desires, and when those needs are unmet when we are small and vulnerable, things really run amok. But the needs are still there. I'm happy to see this group has given you so much to work with and so much encouragement, and you are so open to it understanding that it comes from a kind place.
Very best to you!
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Post by tnr9 on May 18, 2021 2:20:39 GMT
From what I'm reading, most of the posters if not al have a rather compassionate view of ALL the insecure attachment styles, not just the one they originally have or have resolved. And, the resources offered have that compassionate, reparative approach as well. As in, it isn't avoidants or anxious or disorganized that are villains- each have their own set of pain and challenges to work through, and none of the insecure types are indicators of underlying PD in themselves. I have done some reading around and seen plenty of umbrage about one type or another, and people having compassion for only their type in a rather selfish or short sighted way- but the trend SEEMS to be one that is balanced and compassionate and helpful here. ( So, if I ever seem to be delivering information in a way that is hurtful, Id like to explain that I am not intending that. ) I'm avoidant (dismissively so, more than fearfully so) in a relationship that entails a lot of love and growth, with some challenges, with a more anxiously inclined man. So, I see the idea of "work on your issues" from the standpoint of identifying ways in which your original needs weren't met, what your physiological and emotional response was to that, and seek new , gentle, reparative experiences with yourself and with others in order to heal those things up. We all as humans have the same basic needs and desires, and when those needs are unmet when we are small and vulnerable, things really run amok. But the needs are still there. I'm happy to see this group has given you so much to work with and so much encouragement, and you are so open to it understanding that it comes from a kind place. Very best to you! I think that for me...the more I have grown to understand myself and my insecurities...the more I have compassion for others. Every time I come to the boards...I learn things....but it requires being open and seeing insecurity on a spectrum. |
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simon
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Post by simon on May 18, 2021 4:24:45 GMT
Yes, this is the nature of healing and becoming more secure. Our pain comes from the meaning and stories and traumatic imprints of the past that is triggered from the actions of others. The more secure and healed and "Whole" that we become, the triggers diminish and the meaning fades away, to the point that we can understand others in their own light and experience, and not make their behaviors about ourself... the compassion and empathy and calm and patience naturally flows from there.
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Post by krolle on May 20, 2021 4:33:47 GMT
From what I'm reading, most of the posters if not al have a rather compassionate view of ALL the insecure attachment styles, not just the one they originally have or have resolved. And, the resources offered have that compassionate, reparative approach as well. As in, it isn't avoidants or anxious or disorganized that are villains- each have their own set of pain and challenges to work through, and none of the insecure types are indicators of underlying PD in themselves. I have done some reading around and seen plenty of umbrage about one type or another, and people having compassion for only their type in a rather selfish or short sighted way- but the trend SEEMS to be one that is balanced and compassionate and helpful here. ( So, if I ever seem to be delivering information in a way that is hurtful, Id like to explain that I am not intending that. ) I'm avoidant (dismissively so, more than fearfully so) in a relationship that entails a lot of love and growth, with some challenges, with a more anxiously inclined man. So, I see the idea of "work on your issues" from the standpoint of identifying ways in which your original needs weren't met, what your physiological and emotional response was to that, and seek new , gentle, reparative experiences with yourself and with others in order to heal those things up. We all as humans have the same basic needs and desires, and when those needs are unmet when we are small and vulnerable, things really run amok. But the needs are still there. I'm happy to see this group has given you so much to work with and so much encouragement, and you are so open to it understanding that it comes from a kind place. Very best to you! Thankyou for the advice again guys, I'm looking into more affordable types of therapy. And just by introducing me to the phrase "fawning response" has really been an eye opener. Basically describes my life over the past 5 years lol. I think the nice thing about this forum for the most part is that the goal seems to be to understand and discuss. Both ourselves and our loved ones/ former loved ones. I don't get the sense that there is a strong desire to just assign blame in order play the victim and escape responsibility, which is all too common in relationships and society at large these days. But rather there seems a drive toward curiosity and improvement of our behaviours. Having said that I have noticed in my own posts the desire to get my suffering validated, perhaps that's childish of me or simply human nature. But it's rarely out of the desire to assign blame. I hope others can relate to that. These days when I meet someone I often find insight, self reflection and accountability to be really attractive qualities. Regardless of a certain attachment type or some other personality struggle. As long as you have awareness and honesty, especially to yourself about it, I find that very endearing. Many on this forum seem to demonstrate these qualities. I will say I have noticed a general trend toward avoidants being seen as the 'bad guys' in many places. Even in popular literature. The book 'Attached' for example. As much as I really like the book I got the sense that the author portrayed a slight negative bias toward avoidants. Just out of interest what were some of you guys first introductions into the world of attachment styles? How did you come across it? why? I know some of you have told a little bit already. But I am curious and would be interested to read. |
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Post by tnr9 on May 20, 2021 7:56:10 GMT
From what I'm reading, most of the posters if not al have a rather compassionate view of ALL the insecure attachment styles, not just the one they originally have or have resolved. And, the resources offered have that compassionate, reparative approach as well. As in, it isn't avoidants or anxious or disorganized that are villains- each have their own set of pain and challenges to work through, and none of the insecure types are indicators of underlying PD in themselves. I have done some reading around and seen plenty of umbrage about one type or another, and people having compassion for only their type in a rather selfish or short sighted way- but the trend SEEMS to be one that is balanced and compassionate and helpful here. ( So, if I ever seem to be delivering information in a way that is hurtful, Id like to explain that I am not intending that. ) I'm avoidant (dismissively so, more than fearfully so) in a relationship that entails a lot of love and growth, with some challenges, with a more anxiously inclined man. So, I see the idea of "work on your issues" from the standpoint of identifying ways in which your original needs weren't met, what your physiological and emotional response was to that, and seek new , gentle, reparative experiences with yourself and with others in order to heal those things up. We all as humans have the same basic needs and desires, and when those needs are unmet when we are small and vulnerable, things really run amok. But the needs are still there. I'm happy to see this group has given you so much to work with and so much encouragement, and you are so open to it understanding that it comes from a kind place. Very best to you! Thankyou for the advice again guys, I'm looking into more affordable types of therapy. And just by introducing me to the phrase "fawning response" has really been an eye opener. Basically describes my life over the past 5 years lol. I think the nice thing about this forum for the most part is that the goal seems to be to understand and discuss. Both ourselves and our loved ones/ former loved ones. I don't get the sense that there is a strong desire to just assign blame in order play the victim and escape responsibility, which is all too common in relationships and society at large these days. But rather there seems a drive toward curiosity and improvement of our behaviours. Having said that I have noticed in my own posts the desire to get my suffering validated, perhaps that's childish of me or simply human nature. But it's rarely out of the desire to assign blame. I hope others can relate to that. These days when I meet someone I often find insight, self reflection and accountability to be really attractive qualities. Regardless of a certain attachment type or some other personality struggle. As long as you have awareness and honesty, especially to yourself about it, I find that very endearing. Many on this forum seem to demonstrate these qualities. I will say I have noticed a general trend toward avoidants being seen as the 'bad guys' in many places. Even in popular literature. The book 'Attached' for example. As much as I really like the book I got the sense that the author portrayed a slight negative bias toward avoidants. Just out of interest what were some of you guys first introductions into the world of attachment styles? How did you come across it? why? I know some of you have told a little bit already. But I am curious and would be interested to read. Great questions....I honestly can’t say when I “officially” started talking about attachment styles with my prior therapist...although it was likely around the same time as I started dating the NPD. The interesting thing is, that I considered myself to be AP....and I tested as AP. It never even dawned on me that I had any avoidance in me at all until I was in a Christian based class on attachment and found that I was avoidant with God and Jesus. It did not fit at all with my understanding of myself and that is when a few astute people on this forum suggested that perhaps I was not AP but an AP leaning FA. Looking back, I had either strong attractions to or against men and women. Either it was no boundaries or huge walls. The “why” for the Christian based class on also joining these boards was trying to understand and (motive) win back my last boyfriend who I was having just the hardest time with letting go. You are welcome to go through my earliest posts...they speak to the desperation I was having with trying to understand why he broke up with me, what “I” did wrong (I would self blame rather then blame someone I loved....did that with both my parents actually) and how I needed to change in order to win him back. I read the entire FA section...taking notes. I honestly believed if I had just done things “differently”...been more chill, been more flexible...I could still have been with him. It was a huge victory when I started to consider that he wasn’t “perfect”....I knew about his avoidance issues but would justify every one of them. It was a bigger victory when I started to look at myself with compassion. I no longer keep in touch with him...the last time I saw him was a disaster for many reasons. The other day I was able to speak to my therapist about the relationship without getting caught up in self blame or putting him on a pedestal. We came to the conclusion that B was just incredibly good at “holding” me and that was something that had been lacking for me growing up..and as such,I latched on, despite the poor prognosis for the relationship as a whole. We are exploring why I fall so hard and fast over “potential” and how that can blind me from reading the other’s statements, feelings and actions correctly. I lose my ability to “mirror” and to “pace myself” because I am “all in” right from the beginning. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 12:34:28 GMT
krolle , regarding avoidants being villianized... I think that has to do with what simon said- as people reach a level of healing they reach compassion for themselves and others. There are lots of professionals who have a very empathetic stance toward all styles. Some of them are listed in anne12 threads. As for Jeb himself, I read he identifies as FA and he says in his own short writings that he is part DA. He is a scientist, and therefore a certain type of thinker. He sounds overly condemning and quite off the mark in a lot of ways, (for me as an insider) but I appreciate his writing on relationships in terms of solutions. And, he must have found some solutions, I think he and his husband have been together 12 years and recently welcomed a newborn child. Maybe running into the challenges of parenting which aren't solved the same way as issues at MIT, will soften him up a bit  Honestly though, I find that people who haven't come into full awareness of themselves really hammer other people. Hopefully they will get to a softer place with them selves and others to gain REAL understanding and empathy.
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