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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 14:35:36 GMT
It was suggested that I ask some questions in this forum to limit input from non-supportive posters. I don't see any active DA members but am wondering if any lurking could share what they feel like when they experience stress particularly in relationship. I find the shut down feeling to be somewhat oppressive and it restricts my ability to engage life, obviously. Although temporary, it always seems as if it arises and changes my perspective in a way that feels permanent. I feel powerless against it- and it's like a heavy blanket rather than a surge of emotion or something- it's a surge of absence. ? What I notice is that it it's a survival state. During the time in which I feel this way, I don't feel numb so much as resigned- my feelings of closeness in relationship do feel numb but my feelings of resignation and melancholy are pervasive in all areas- it's like a depression. I don't know that it's well understood that we hurt, or that we feel and respond to betrayal and abandonment. I think we re-write abandonment readily because it's unbearable and scary. I really do. Like we always knew it was the reality and we pretend to adapt to it, ignore it as a possibility. We certainly do know how to survive and take care of ourselves so to speak- to protect ourselves from that horrible emptiness and pain and sadness. I know avoidants in real life who know this feeling well but in literature, I think it's missed.
I think there is a misunderstanding- some people feel overwhelmed by their feelings and maybe don't get that I might feel overwhelmed by a void. Physiology seems to play a part in both, research suggests.
Maybe it's that anxious go to anxiety and dismissives go to depression. Health and environmental factors influence this as well. It's complex but there's a basic direction and it's away from others. So whatever you want to call it it's isolation.
It's hard to see the true motives of others in this state because it's survival, and I'm sure it darkens my perspective, makes it very difficult to trust. It is then that I trust and find comfort in myself. It's a retreat into a little world where I feel protected. But not happy or truly free. Just trying to prevent further pain and events spiraling out of control. Have to manage it! Managing and taking comfort in small successes becomes the priority. It reminds me if someone surviving on an island keeping despair at bay by diligently finding the grubs and drops of water to sustain them. Diligence and self soothing.
It is at this time that I feel lonely, but cannot express it. That's a fathomless pit, hard to approach. Don't even want to step to the edge and look in. I don't know if it's lonely because there is no longing with it. Just an isolation where I can't seem to find comfort in others and I realize something is missing. I'm Over Here. You're Over There. There is a chasm between us. I just observe the distance and breathe. I accept it and don't know what to say. I've seen paintings that portray it. Art does a good job.
This is different from the empowered and productive state a DA is accustomed to operating in. There is an independence that does not feel like isolation and its invigorating. I'm not referring to that here. Man, if we could only feel that always. If I feel oppressed by another, I will wrangle out of that and feel relieved. If I have my heart in and get punched there ... that's something I'm trying to understand and learn how to take care of better.
I don't really expect much interaction here but thought I'd give it a shot with nothing to lose. I'm looking for constructive and supportive input from like minded members or sources that recognize the suffering of avoidants compassionately. This may be too much to expect on the internet but let's have a go.
Maybe this is to vulnerable for you other DA's and I get that. I've had a lot of loss this year and I have fear of more and I'm willing to bounce things around if you are. I love hearing from men as well. Maybe because the avoidant mindset is considered a masculine one which is kind of weird to me, not sure I agree. But I think men are accused of not caring when they are actually super confused and hurt and don't know what to do with that and I guess I relate.
Anyway, I'm not looking to get into debate, I'm looking for some camaraderie or relatability. Also not looking for an Improve Introvert course because I'm just talking about my feelings and pursuing self improvement. I know a little about myself.
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Post by annieb on May 28, 2021 15:01:59 GMT
Hey, I think they call it a freeze response if I’m not mistaken. Experienced it many times and it’s definitely a sort of a nervous system shutdown/ survival mode. It’s an unfortunate state that we have very little power over, but I think little by little with all the other work we are doing we can get away from it.
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Post by annieb on May 28, 2021 15:05:13 GMT
Also I think a lot of these states are basically a reward system in our brain, similar to how addiction works, and is dopamine related. Addiction is an attachment disorder in essence. It’s just that we are not addicted to a substance, but we are addicted to our survival narrative.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 15:12:38 GMT
Hey, I think they call it a freeze response if I’m not mistaken. Experienced it many times and it’s definitely a sort of a nervous system shutdown/ survival mode. It’s an unfortunate state that we have very little power over, but I think little by little with all the other work we are doing we can get away from it. Thank you for responding to me. I think you're right about this post and your other one. I am wanting out of it. That's why I am asking here, at least talk about it. I appreciate it. Do you relate to anything I wrote? Sometimes I wonder if it's just me. Being sensitive doesn't help, I over think.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 15:13:14 GMT
It's pretty refreshing to hear your empathy.
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Post by annieb on May 28, 2021 15:35:50 GMT
Hey, I think they call it a freeze response if I’m not mistaken. Experienced it many times and it’s definitely a sort of a nervous system shutdown/ survival mode. It’s an unfortunate state that we have very little power over, but I think little by little with all the other work we are doing we can get away from it. Thank you for responding to me. I think you're right about this post and your other one. I am wanting out of it. That's why I am asking here, at least talk about it. I appreciate it. Do you relate to anything I wrote? Sometimes I wonder if it's just me. Being sensitive doesn't help, I over think. I absolutely relate to what you wrote. And it doesn’t really matter what the coping strategy is, the feeling is the same. I don’t distinguish personally between DA, FA or AP. They are all avoidants. I test most often FA. With career success I’ve become more DA and with lack of relationship success I’ve leaned AP. It doesn’t really matter as I can’t attach properly in either of these states.. From having talked with secure people in general, I get a sense that they never really feel that dopamine withdrawal. That they had that constant caregiving experience in childhood provided them with a constant flow of those chemicals and they are able to self soothe right away if those chemicals stop for some reason. And that their stress response is less damaging to their other chemicals and hormones vs we can end up in some sort of adrenal exhaustion and then we can’t get out of it. That’s why I’m a big fan of medication (and exercise and healthy lifestyle, don’t get me wrong), but the way we experience stress is different from how a secure experiences stress. One of the things that happens to me is a daydreaming/ crushing response. Where I would either have a long term crush on somebody (that I never act on because deep down I know I actually am not really interested in them), or I would daydream about some experience that is completely ridiculous. Like my funeral and the reading of my will, LOL. All these behaviors seem benign, but they happen during that dissociative state. It’s crazy because I’ve been in therapy now for two solid years and I keep uncovering more and more and it seems like it just doesn’t end. I still have ridiculous coping strategies when under stress and I revert back to them. But one thing that has been constant after I’ve started healing is that I never feel that abandonment dread or fear anymore. In some ways I wonder if I’m simply leaning more DA. In other ways we are also ok just the way we are. So we can’t attach, but I feel like as long as I am not a parent I’m. It hurting anybody 😳 I’ve got some of the most significant responses on this forum, although they are a little slow, they are very astute. Just like you! ☺️
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 15:39:52 GMT
Also I think a lot of these states are basically a reward system in our brain, similar to how addiction works, and is dopamine related. Addiction is an attachment disorder in essence. It’s just that we are not addicted to a substance, but we are addicted to our survival narrative. I think I've come a long way over time and I get this fear sometimes like this is a life sentence and no matter how much progress I make, it's like there is a retractable cord that slams me back. Like I have only so much time before I'm pulled back. It's confusing. I guess perspective is everything and when I view it from inside the shut down so of course it looks discouraging. It's not a balanced perspective. I'm glad that other things go well in spite, like professionally I can still perform and find security and a sense of some "belonging" if you will, in doing my job well, applying myself, and taking care of my physical needs and security. Financially I'm good. So maybe it differs from deep depression in that way as I tend to remain functional and am not paralyzed or unable to cope.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 15:46:27 GMT
Wow this is such a relief to hear from you annie, It means a lot. I'm so glad I was able to articulate things in a way that you relate to. I like your self acceptance and self care. I relate to that. And, I have recently been looking into adrenal exhaustion- with the vitamin D deficiency I'm experiencing I've had to take a good long look at my physical self and how my emotional self needs me to care for my body better. I lost some good habits with the pandemic. Today I am reaching out to people, I'm going to take a walk outdoors in a natural area, and I would like to sunbathe for Vitamin D. Also I am taking adaptogenherbs and nutritional supplements to try to repair my body from the acute stress that was unrelenting this year. Covid sucks but real life kept on with employment issues, death of child close to my family, blah blah blah and I'm feeling the need to heal and recover. Thank you for the encouragement and kind feedback. It's amazing the difference that can make.
I'm going to read your post again and reply later. Honestly I jumped on it and read it fast because I was surprised. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 15:51:15 GMT
Oh and hey I used to crush but it was in the avoidant way- Thais Gibson has a video on how avoidants experience limmerance (sp). Feels so pathetic. Ha. I don't do that anymore actually it was when I was more avoidant. Total escape. I have more relationships in my life today and also I'm in a serious romantic relationship. I shut down after a recent trip with my SO. Stressors happened. I blame the stressors but how much is just me getting overwhelmed. That's what I mean. It gets confusing.
BUT, I'm coming to a better place and I'm doing the right things to get there. Just rough. I cried today. Hormones or attachment exhaustion, or a combo. Anyway it's nice to just be a part of what everyone else is going through to. That's a nice feeling even if it sucks.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 15:54:59 GMT
I used to imagine laying dead and being at my funeral too. Why was that comforting? Thank you for sharing. I mean, it was completely isolating but surrounded by people. I think of that and feel sad. But it was somehow comforting... like I am alone in death and it can't be helped but - at least I am not alone.
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Post by annieb on May 28, 2021 17:23:11 GMT
I used to imagine laying dead and being at my funeral too. Why was that comforting? Thank you for sharing. I mean, it was completely isolating but surrounded by people. I think of that and feel sad. But it was somehow comforting... like I am alone in death and it can't be helped but - at least I am not alone. That’s too funny - I wonder what that means? Perhaps laying there dead is the ultimate DA dream - you can’t have me now anymore. I’m not sure why reading my will was a part of this. Perhaps my AP side was manipulating the poor funeral guests from the grave 😂. I really am a sicko.
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Post by annieb on May 28, 2021 17:36:17 GMT
Also I think a lot of these states are basically a reward system in our brain, similar to how addiction works, and is dopamine related. Addiction is an attachment disorder in essence. It’s just that we are not addicted to a substance, but we are addicted to our survival narrative. I think I've come a long way over time and I get this fear sometimes like this is a life sentence and no matter how much progress I make, it's like there is a retractable cord that slams me back. Like I have only so much time before I'm pulled back. It's confusing. I guess perspective is everything and when I view it from inside the shut down so of course it looks discouraging. It's not a balanced perspective. I'm glad that other things go well in spite, like professionally I can still perform and find security and a sense of some "belonging" if you will, in doing my job well, applying myself, and taking care of my physical needs and security. Financially I'm good. So maybe it differs from deep depression in that way as I tend to remain functional and am not paralyzed or unable to cope. I get the life sentence thing, and sometimes I wish I was addicted to a substance so that I could quit it and have an identity in that besides this actually being who I am. But alas, no such luck. I was adamant to not get into drugs or alcohol excessively because of my mom’s addiction issues, but I feel it would have been better almost. I agree that the depression isn’t always “deep” with us and it’s functional. My friends always point out that me being in a depressive state and still showering and going to work and taking care of things and myself is how most people would dream of being “depressed”. I feel like I’ve snapped out of the depression so many times that it probably wasn’t a chemical depression that other people experience. I am on medication currently - Wellbutrin - and what it’s done for me I get less if the daydreaming and more of the getting up and go. It’s providing enough dopamine without having to fantasize up a pleasurable disassociative experience to make the dopamine. I’m not sure where I was going with this, oh, that it’s a life sentence. Yes, I believe it is, and we only have so much time left to get better, and it takes so much time, years, to change. But maybe that’s our journey. Maybe our life’s goal is to learn compassion for ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 18:04:33 GMT
I used to imagine laying dead and being at my funeral too. Why was that comforting? Thank you for sharing. I mean, it was completely isolating but surrounded by people. I think of that and feel sad. But it was somehow comforting... like I am alone in death and it can't be helped but - at least I am not alone. That’s too funny - I wonder what that means? Perhaps laying there dead is the ultimate DA dream - you can’t have me now anymore. I’m not sure why reading my will was a part of this. Perhaps my AP side was manipulating the poor funeral guests from the grave 😂. I really am a sicko. For me, I think it was giving up. Trying to survive but not feeling able to. The ultimate defense proving fatal perhaps, and grief.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 18:25:13 GMT
I think I've come a long way over time and I get this fear sometimes like this is a life sentence and no matter how much progress I make, it's like there is a retractable cord that slams me back. Like I have only so much time before I'm pulled back. It's confusing. I guess perspective is everything and when I view it from inside the shut down so of course it looks discouraging. It's not a balanced perspective. I'm glad that other things go well in spite, like professionally I can still perform and find security and a sense of some "belonging" if you will, in doing my job well, applying myself, and taking care of my physical needs and security. Financially I'm good. So maybe it differs from deep depression in that way as I tend to remain functional and am not paralyzed or unable to cope. I get the life sentence thing, and sometimes I wish I was addicted to a substance so that I could quit it and have an identity in that besides this actually being who I am. But alas, no such luck. I was adamant to not get into drugs or alcohol excessively because of my mom’s addiction issues, but I feel it would have been better almost. I agree that the depression isn’t always “deep” with us and it’s functional. My friends always point out that me being in a depressive state and still showering and going to work and taking care of things and myself is how most people would dream of being “depressed”. I feel like I’ve snapped out of the depression so many times that it probably wasn’t a chemical depression that other people experience. I am on medication currently - Wellbutrin - and what it’s done for me I get less if the daydreaming and more of the getting up and go. It’s providing enough dopamine without having to fantasize up a pleasurable disassociative experience to make the dopamine. I’m not sure where I was going with this, oh, that it’s a life sentence. Yes, I believe it is, and we only have so much time left to get better, and it takes so much time, years, to change. But maybe that’s our journey. Maybe our life’s goal is to learn compassion for ourselves. Yeah, I like where you went with this. So many people suffer from attachment wounding. Half the population or so, right? Why turn against ourselves and each other. That's enough of that. I can say I don't envy anxious people. Not like Ivenever had anxiety... but it's been situational and hormonal and temporary. That urgent need to survive, do something, fret, hurt, prevent bad things, fear bad things, all in an intense way. The need to act. When I get stressed all I have to do is lay down and die inside. Really- it's not easy but it's resignation and that's past the point of action. But still- a condition I wouldn't wish on anyone,either way. What's very hard is losing perspective in my relationship. If I shut down I simply cannot understand what is right, true, helpful, etc. I do feel angry, resentful, hurt, not blank. It's like all these feelings that make me question if I've been wrong all along. I'm finding though that if I just give in to the possibility that I'm skewed, open just a little bit to a softer gentler view, give some grace to me and him (thank you anne12 for your personal advice) then things seem to clear again like clouds giving way to the blue. Maybe it's learning to trust life and the world and people a little bit. It's a matter of riding it out to the new possibilities I actively created in my "normal times!" that are waiting for me on the other side. I've made new things in my life and I work on them- my relationships and new habits are still there for me when I come out of the grey. So, it's a feeling of grace but still sadness that this is a thing. BUT everybody struggles in some way, it's a human thing so just remembering to not get stuck on it and move forward is important. And compassion is a huge part of the answer to all of it. I have to have compassion for my SO also , he struggles too. It's so easy to become self centered but that's what survival is. Sometimes we are not just surviving we are really living and that shouldn't be forgotten or dismissed. Right? It's not all bad and if there is growth then it's a good thing.
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Post by maryisback on Jun 11, 2021 22:03:57 GMT
@introvert, I think you have much more of a grasp on feeling your feelings than I ever had or will have. I am definitely all DA. I've stop on this forum, from time to time. I don't feel lonely or depression. I've been to therapy which helped me realize that I just don't recognize my feelings, but it's kind of like, if you can't hear the tree fall, does it really exist? I know a large part of me becoming DA was from neglect as a child, so I have the ultimate self soothing mechanisms. I love being social, but I don't need it. I can be alone and not be lonely. Has it's pros and cons. I'm super self sufficient, so I don't need others, which also means I don't attach to others.
I think the fact that you can recognize your loneliness or depression means you are on the path and it may not be a lifelong sentence for you.
"If I shut down I simply cannot understand what is right, true, helpful, etc" - I can totally relate to this. I always say I don't have an emotional guide, therefore I only act on the logical. The logical doesn't always give you the right answer. Sometimes I ask people questions that probably seem simple to them, but hard for me to relate. It has helped me in business, but not in relationships, that's for sure.
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