Question for AP... what is the need for reassurance?

He might not even be aware of the “story”….it can be a bit like a train where you don’t realize things until after you have been hit and the train is far down the track.  But, it is a very good tool to start to get ahead of the story/assumption because then it builds in a “pause” where a decision can be made.

[/quote]Hi krolle , thank you!

I understand and totally believe that an angry woman would/could be difficult to approach! Maybe the couples coach that is being quoted is dealing with couples who are working together in therapy, who have some sort of cueing as a couple to learn how to respond to each other.  It just seems like difficult advice for a couple that isn't actively repairing their relationship in couples therapy. :/

I don't feel afraid, I feel defensive emotionally and angry when he accuses me of not caring enough.  Because he's wrong and I think it's unfair and it makes me feel betrayed by him. I don't then want to be in a position to prove my love by giving a hug to someone who isn't caring about me enough in the moment to even listen to me.  That's just really pushing it sometimes.  I am not Mother Theresa. 😑

My boyfriend is an engineer by profession and likes to see himself as totally rational, linear, logical.  I'm fairly logical myself, and I'm able to present myself pretty reasonably, my first approach when he's been like this has been to describe my thinking and it's probably pretty hard for the logical side of him to argue with! BUT that's the dilemma, I think, for him, that's tied to his escalating reaction.  He's in emotion and feeling out of control and escalated and it isn't logical, or reasonable.  So I think he must feel very raw and vulnerable and defensive (turning to offense) at those times.

How I reinforce my boundaries if he is escalating his voice, or becoming hostile (which I am reading is an anxious reaction to abandonment, either a sad reaction or an angry one... he tends to go toward sarcasm and hostility, a defense..) is to remind him of our agreement to try to handle our conflicts with courtesy and respect.  If he is amping up already, it's likely because in his triggered state he feels I am already being disrespectful, and the conversation becomes, in my mind, a silly tit-for-tat.  That's when it tends to become circular so I just let him know that I'm not going to argue my own mind with him. I will actually tell him he's breaking our fair-fight rules by defining me instead of his own thoughts and feelings.  There have been times he actually shifts into defining his feelings and then I can express care for those and try to move forward that way.  But if he's too far into the anxious tornado I let him storm off because that's his thing.  I don't try to press reality onto him because there's no point.  Then, I'll reach out to bring him back to our agreement that we will take a break and reconnect with kindness and compassion for each other, and he calms down a lot with that phone call.  Then we take a break, I don't know what he does but I recover from the emotional exhaustion, and take good care of myself.  I can't lie and say I feel great and peaceful, during this time.  I feel frustrated and annoyed but known that history has shown we both are committed to learning and growing and repairing and moving on a little better than we were before.  
So that's how I stay sane in his anxious storm.  Thankfully, we are doing something right because they happen far less frequently and aren't as severe as in the past.  I see his pain, I also see his pride, and I am not trying to ding him.  I know he has had to have patience with me, when I'm not at my best also.  

But like you- I just can't and won't participate in a "discussion" where I have absolutely no voice.  It's so disrespectful and unacceptable for anyone to claim they know me and my thoughts, feelings, and motivations better than I know them myself.  People have misunderstandings.  People have different perceptions.  But not once have I been the person he framed me as when he was in an anxious storm.  I won't go there anymore. 


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I agree. Difficult advice on the hugging thing. regardless of gender. I could see it being useful as you said in some sort of therapeutic environment where maybe your faced with tears from your partner or something. But not on your own when basically facing down an aggressive gorilla looking to lash out lol.

I also empathize with the way you said you don't necessarily feel like doing those things to prove your love to someone who basically invalidates anything you say in those moments. I have been there and felt a lot of confusion and shame over that. I'm still not sure if my actions are ethical on that stance. The boundaries on what constitutes emotional abuse are so blurred it seems I find it difficult to know if my actions are reasonable by modern standards. maybe you can relate, I'm no mother Teresa either lol.

An example I might give which is not exactly hugging, but kind of related to your sentiment, is to do with sex. I have been accused of being emotionally abusive before because I "withdrew" sex and affection during conflict times. But it wasn't as some sort of manipulation tactic. Simply because I didn't feel like having sex with someone who invalidated what I had to say and was calling me names. I figured that's a reasonable response, but now I'm not even sure. My ex partner, and several other people I know told me I was being abusive by doing that, and cited several reputable sources(websites) etc. But I can't internalize the ethics of that? So I have to have sex with someone even if I don't feel like it, or it's classed as emotional abuse? isn't that like some kind of pseudo rape? I'm just confused I guess....or being gaslit lol.

In terms of you communicating that you need alone time. I think that is fair. based on your name I'm thinking that, like me, you recharge by being alone. Social situations are enjoyable, but fatiguing, especially when big emotions are involved. HSP on top of that, I feel you. it's sensory overload. And very exhausting. I find spending time in nature helps me. I was awol from the forum for the last 2 weeks or so because I did my annual trip into the wilderness. Do feel somewhat recharged despite sleeping alone, in a tent, and paddling all day for a couple weeks lol. There's a standing joke within my friend group that I do these trips because the bears are safer to be around than many of the women in my life lol.

You sound logical to me. I think what has already been said about a trance like state of your partner has some truth when it comes to communicating when he's activated. I'v heard before that someone who's really triggered is in a type of hypnosis where their actions are basically dictated by the amygdala and the higher brain functions are offline. So in his head you are more like a target than his partner during those times. The only way I have been able to navigate them is to get physical space for a while. Which sounds like what you're doing. perhaps having a pre arranged set up or safe word where you both get temporary distance when your not feeling seen or getting defensive. I guess maybe that's what you meant by the "agreement" you guys have.

It does seem like many of your tactics are working. You obviously both care enough to be doing all this work and I think that bodes well for your ability to relate. not just with him, but in relationships in general. I enjoy reading your posts. They seem open and insightful. Rarely do I sense hostility or blame in your posts regarding your partner. Even if you clarify things he does your unhappy about it's usually with a backdrop of empathy. I am trying to achieve that myself but think you're a little further along.

The quote thing's gone wrong for me in the pas as well hahaha!

I have a lot to respond to in your post, I enjoy your posting as well and the conversation that ensues. Thank you for your kind words. I will likely respond in bits as I reflect, but wanted to say that I feel you are well within your healthy boundaries to not have sex with someone who is verbally abusing you, especially during times of conflict. To expect physical intimacy when the dynamic feels unsafe due to emotional and verbal aggression, is what I would consider narcissistic entitlement. In th case of abuse, the victim is often blamed for self protective responses and that's just more abuse, more bullying. Honor your heart and body on that one krolle, if a woman is coerced with shame and as though she owes her body to someone on demand, that's considered rape. It goes both ways, and I feel angry on your behalf that you have been guilted and shamed into wondering if it's ok to say NO.

Withholding affection to punish as an act of control is abuse, but it's twisted to say that to say no to sex with an unsafe partner is wrong. That's my position, anyway. I know it gets confusing when you have been targeted by a pathological personality. So sorry you've been through that!

krolle forgive the related tagging, I am not good with the quotes either and I'm just responding to the various points. This, in regard to asking for alone time.

My whole point in coming to the forum initially was to explore my side of things, knowing that I am dismissive but not too far gone I have done a lot of therapeutic self reflection and sought outside help where appropriate, for a variety of situations over the years, and it all adds up to healthier functioning, and deeper understanding of self and others.

My need to set boundaries around the AP acting out that my boyfriend displays is an extension of my growth toward emotional honesty, and compassion for myself- as well as for my partner. An unaware response would be simply returning the fight or withdraw, becoming unavailable. The way I see it, creating boundaries around the behavior that is hurtful and crosses the lines of fair fighting, shows care for myself and for the relationship. Communicating clearly what my limits are and what I need in terms of respectful, compassionate communication leaves no ambiguity as to what I am after, and what I am working toward for us. It's not a punishment, it's not an avoidant reflex. It's a bridge toward understanding me and what I need, with an invitation to explain his own feelings and needs so that I can better understand and accommodate him. None of that can happen when he's just triggered and acting out and pushing me away with his narrative and his hostility.. Without a constructive response to his triggered state, this relationship would have ended a while ago. To his credit, he recognized along the way that the arguments were destructive and he has his part (which is a perspective he's still capable of losing when triggered, albeit less and less often). Also, whence is triggered, if I am able to stay regulated myself, and be calm and consistent, he does finally respond in a safer way and moves toward repair with me.

One thing that I need, even in a healthy state, is alone time to recharge, as you have described. It's part of my intrinsic nature and not foreign to him, as he enjoys his alone time as well. My problem had become that I fell out of balance as I shifted from being single into relationship. The new stage of the relationship happened during the initial pandemic shutdown, and I had more time on my hands combined with the honeymoon phase- we were together a lot. I was out of my routines, including my solitude routines. As life returned to normal, I became busier and busier, but had essentially lost that quiet me time that had been a real staple for me before I met him. It became habit. With the break we took, I've been able to bring back some of that space, the solitude I need. Again, this has all been communicated clearly and is not a mysterious retreat or a surgical mechanism arising from my own nervous system. It is a conscious, communicated change of my routines in order to accommodate my own personal needs, his needs (by providing the contact and consistency any partner needs and deserves) and being peace to the relationship by taking good care of my mental and emotional state.

I LOVE that you are able to go AWOL into nature. Nature is a very important part of my inner life. I live close to a state park where I spend regular time to be quiet, walk slowly, relax, contemplate, and observe. I got away from this during the pandemic because of all the shifts in my time and attention, but I am making time for this again and fitting it into my schedule. I've got some tweaking to do, but I am coming back to myself in a way that feels really good.

Thank you for sharing about yourself, and for the conversation! Very nice to relate with you here!

krolle , it is like journaling a bit, which works because I don't typically journal... and also I've gotten some great feedback that's helped me a lot! So better than journaling

When you deal with someone with a PD, as you have, you also likely deal with their inner circle which has been molded to a degree by the PD, as well. Personality disorders are like attachment insecurity on steroids, way beyond the typical presentation with some extra cruelty thrown in. So behaviors might resemble simply insecure behaviors to a point, and some of the strategies are similar- but you can't work with a PD like you can with a non-pathological or "normal range" person. The views are going to be very extreme, unchangeable, and only concerned with the wants and expectations of the PD, persistently. It sounds like you've gotten some very imbalanced input from that segment of your associations. It's not uncommon for a person with a PD to take a statement that is true but has nuance , and apply it to their situation inappropriately.

Take stonewalling. Refusing to communicate and refusing to have a conversation and address an issue is stonewalling. Refusing to have a conversation in a disrespectful, abusive way is having boundaries, refusing to have the same conversation 20 times is respect for your own voice and time. Suggesting a return to a heated, unproductive conversation if it can be had according to some basic standards of courtesy is wise and solution oriented. What is the intent? If it's to prevent harm to yourself or the other person, involves clear, responsible communication, and aligns with your personal values, it's the best you can do. If a person chooses to they can walk away from such an effort (or wail and whine that it's abusive) and call it stonewalling.... I'd say adios and better luck for them next time to create the dynamic they want.

My boyfriend and I have evolved through some very difficult and destructive arguments to come to the place we are with trying to solve the root issues. It turns out that his insecure triggers are particularly destructive if he goes auto pilot with them, and for us, strong boundaires applied with compassion have been helpful. It may help him to see that at his worst I don't actually abandon him, which is a root fear. And, that I'm able to demonstrate commitment when it's most trying. He's done the same for me accommodating my issues as I work through and grow as well. So it's a two way street and that's what that other article is about. .

I think the trauma you have suffered with a PD partner warrants a good deal of recovery and regrouping before you go taking risks though, simply because that experience is so disorienting and you have become confused about how to best take care of yourself, and whether or not you have a right to do that. I am so sorry you've been impacted that way, but I know you will be able to repair that stronger than ever.

Something that's been helpful for us is to just take advice from "people who know"- reading articles about how to conduct a successful conflict resolution and taking the advice. It is a guideline but to be able to actualize it, both parties have to commit to growth and responsibility for their side of the fence, whatever issue they struggle with that prevents a fair fight.

Here's an example below ,and there are many more that address fair fighting rules for the boundaries around angry conflict. It's ok to be angry of course- it's in how that is communicated (clearly, using I statements, without blaming and aggressive speech like name calling and derision, etc. )Someone engaging in abusive behaviors is not someone you can successfully resolve conflict with, and if abuse is happening in the relationship then being in it at all should be the first topic to explore, for the person being abused. So that's another discussion- the articles we utilize are written for non abusive relationships.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.self.com/story/fighting-fair/amp


www.verywellmind.com/managing-conflict-in-relationships-communication-tips-3144967

This! This can be true of any of us in anger but is exactly what I see in AP triggered bouts of anger, as experienced in my relationship. And that is not to blame, but to say I can see how it destroys (or would, without a conscious response) what it is my boyfriend wants most of all, which is a safe connection with me. I'd not like to lose that connection myself, and that's my motivation for finding the constructive way through this. I do love him.