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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 15:45:59 GMT
dexter, It seems like it’s very hard for you to accept her choices, assumptions, opinion, words, behavior, truth. And you know why that is, right? It’s because you think they all say something about you, and if you change them it will say something else about you. So you’ve outsourced how you see yourself to how she sees you so that you can change how she sees you and then it will be how you see yourself. We’ve all done it. Heck, I just did it with my last relationship. But all it is and does it’s is prolonging the time that we are not centered and do not hold our esteem within ourselves. Always. Our practice (daily and hourly) is to love ourselves, to hold our esteem within ourselves and to be able to validate ourselves all the time. And if we waiver we have to examine why and get back to center. It’s one of the hardest things to do. That’s why we avoid it. Who wants to work THAT hard. It seems it’s impossible. This relationship as described in the pages of this thread is anything but an equal, mutually chosen, respectful relationship with consistency, trust, and freedom to be authentic, for each partner. Anytime you have one unilaterally pushing for change in the other, it's dead on arrival. There's complimenting with differences and clashing and this seems to be clashing. A power struggle. It's exhausting just to read it. Just because she flakes back into wanting, doesn't mean anything. A flake is a a flake is a flake. Flake left it's all roses and chocolate, flake right and we aren't meant to be. That's her side- the AP side is just as flaky in my opinion, riding the bull thinking you'll tame it. That's fantasy stuff and not built on adult choices, anytime a relationship has you wanting to drink alone you seriously need to get your feet on the ground, get out of the clouds about your own participation in such a roller coaster. That's my take, anyway. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 16:13:13 GMT
I guess to put it simply:
You're insisting you're compatible with a woman who continuously asserts that you're incompatible.
What does this mean to you? You think you are right and you can get her to see it? It's crazy making. And your bar for compatibility is very low if you insist on it against someone else's protests. Sure, she changes her mind. And she changes it again.
I'm only compatible with people who want to be in a relationship with me, and know it, so show it, consistently. That's the only thing that makes sense to me- in business, family, friends, romantic- it doesn't have to be so hard.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 5, 2021 16:32:25 GMT
Incompatibility can absolutely be within attachment styles. You both have totally different fundamental needs that neither of you can meet, neither for each other within the relationship nor within yourselves outside the relationship.
She gets upset and her needs become space and distance. When you're upset your needs are for reconnection. You lean in, she leans out. You believe you crave intimacy, she fears it. She gets nitpicky when threatened. You don't resolve conflicts together properly, you break up and nothing is stable. Ultimately, you do not have the same intimacy needs nor want the same thing in a relationship or it wouldn't be a constant power struggle.
How is that description compatible? All the most important parts of stable commitment and consistent connection aren't there. It isn't compatible. Even if it's 90% day to day compatible and 10% not, the 10% is all the most important foundational stuff for a stable relationship's survival.
I used to get into this thinking trap too. I was AP thinking my FA ex was the most compatible. 95%!! But the 5% made it so hard. I was wrong. We weren't compatible at all, I just wanted us to be and had such a low bar from horrible prior relationships, I almost didn't know better. But our foundation was thoroughly unhealthy. Over time, many years have passed now, we're thoroughly incompatible and have grown in opposite directions, including on values. Combination of his developing differently than mine and the capacity to go that way was always there but he wasn't totally forthcoming or vulnerable about showing me who he was in an effort to keep me around.
Keep going to therapy. You're doing well in that regard, and you'll get somewhere on your journey in one direction or another.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 16:43:43 GMT
Incompatibility can absolutely be within attachment styles. You both have totally different fundamental needs that neither of you can meet, neither for each other within the relationship nor within yourselves outside the relationship. She gets upset and her needs become space and distance. When you're upset your needs are for reconnection. You lean in, she leans out. You believe you crave intimacy, she fears it. She gets nitpicky when threatened. You don't resolve conflicts together properly, you break up and nothing is stable. Ultimately, you do not have the same intimacy needs nor want the same thing in a relationship or it wouldn't be a constant power struggle. How is that description compatible? All the most important parts of stable commitment and consistent connection aren't there. It isn't compatible. Even if it's 90% day to day compatible and 10% not, the 10% is all the most important foundational stuff for a stable relationship's survival. I used to get into this thinking trap too. I was AP thinking my FA ex was the most compatible. 95%!! But the 5% made it so hard. I was wrong. We weren't compatible at all, I just wanted us to be and had such a low bar from horrible prior relationships, I almost didn't know better. But our foundation was thoroughly unhealthy. Over time, many years have passed now, we're thoroughly incompatible and have grown in opposite directions, including on values. Combination of his developing differently than mine and the capacity to go that way was always there but he wasn't totally forthcoming or vulnerable about showing me who he was in an effort to keep me around. Keep going to therapy. You're doing well in that regard, and you'll get somewhere on your journey in one direction or another. ...All the most important parts of stable commitment and consistent connection aren't there. |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Oct 5, 2021 20:01:27 GMT
This relationship as described in the pages of this thread is anything but an equal, mutually chosen, respectful relationship with consistency, trust, and freedom to be authentic, for each partner.
It's a relationship of an AP with FA/DA, so what do you expect, mr. sherlock?
When I read your posts, I feel guilt and shame, that everything is my fault, and I am responsible for keeping this unhealthy relationship going, when I should let go.
But I know that responsibility of our dynamics is on both sides. For example today evening she just switched so much into being vulnerable and even needy for closeness, without any reason.
I can't respond to all of your posts today guys, I will do it within few days (intense projects at work), but want to say I appreciate all the posts, and some words resonates within me, some not.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 21:05:22 GMT
This relationship as described in the pages of this thread is anything but an equal, mutually chosen, respectful relationship with consistency, trust, and freedom to be authentic, for each partner.
It's a relationship of an AP with FA/DA, so what do you expect, mr. sherlock?
When I read your posts, I feel guilt and shame, that everything is my fault, and I am responsible for keeping this unhealthy relationship going, when I should let go.
But I know that responsibility of our dynamics is on both sides. For example today evening she just switched so much into being vulnerable and even needy for closeness, without any reason.
I can't respond to all of your posts today guys, I will do it within few days (intense projects at work), but want to say I appreciate all the posts, and some words resonates within me, some not.
You asked about compatibility. You describe this woman as the most compatible girlfriend ever. I observe something different. Ive commented, about unhealthy behavior on both sides. If you are triggered by my posts, feeling shame and guilt and as if everything is your fault, I won't share, as not all input will be helpful to you. You are responsible for your part in keeping the dynamic going, and only your part. I don't think that anyone has indicated otherwise here. I do think it's an AP perspective, the self blaming (and then other blaming, shifting back and forth.) It isnt my intention to provoke guilt and shame in you. My intention has been to provide another perspective from the rose colored glasses view you seem to take of her at times, and also the focus on her avoidance at other times. It's been said here so many times in so many ways but apparently my voice stands out as one that triggers you. You two mesh perfectly in the anxious/avoidant trap. As I said, not all input will be helpful to you so I'll refrain and wish you the best of luck. |
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Post by anne12 on Oct 6, 2021 2:39:39 GMT
Whatever happens I think it is sooo important to “delete” / get rid of any topdog/underdog dynamics. It expecially shows when people got some desorganised attatchment style. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/38235/You can also look up the drama triangle “…What I lack is setting boundaries. If I set them, it is too late and I am setting them with anger. I wasn't setting boundaries because I was afraid to loose her.” -It’s never too late to go back and set a boundarie. |
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Post by doctora on Oct 9, 2021 8:29:29 GMT
Incompatibility can absolutely be within attachment styles. You both have totally different fundamental needs that neither of you can meet, neither for each other within the relationship nor within yourselves outside the relationship. She gets upset and her needs become space and distance. When you're upset your needs are for reconnection. You lean in, she leans out. You believe you crave intimacy, she fears it. She gets nitpicky when threatened. You don't resolve conflicts together properly, you break up and nothing is stable. Ultimately, you do not have the same intimacy needs nor want the same thing in a relationship or it wouldn't be a constant power struggle. How is that description compatible? All the most important parts of stable commitment and consistent connection aren't there. It isn't compatible. Even if it's 90% day to day compatible and 10% not, the 10% is all the most important foundational stuff for a stable relationship's survival. I used to get into this thinking trap too. I was AP thinking my FA ex was the most compatible. 95%!! But the 5% made it so hard. I was wrong. We weren't compatible at all, I just wanted us to be and had such a low bar from horrible prior relationships, I almost didn't know better. But our foundation was thoroughly unhealthy. Over time, many years have passed now, we're thoroughly incompatible and have grown in opposite directions, including on values. Combination of his developing differently than mine and the capacity to go that way was always there but he wasn't totally forthcoming or vulnerable about showing me who he was in an effort to keep me around. Keep going to therapy. You're doing well in that regard, and you'll get somewhere on your journey in one direction or another. So, respectfully, I think the word “compatibility” is a moot point, completely useless in this case. Incompatibility and compatibility imply intrinsic characteristics of a connection, and thus it can definitely cause someone to feel shame about trying to make something work when it’s “incompatible.” I strongly believe that the truth is that that word “compatibility” does not apply to DA/FA and AP/secure relationships. Why? Because people with extreme avoidance will deactivate and become incompatible with someone they are compatible with. We all know that. It is not the fault of the AP or secure partner or some combination that they do not consider this back and forth “incompatibility”, 1) because attachments styles can and do change, it is not a fixed characteristic and 2) because the reasons these relationships don’t work is more nuanced and sad. Compatibility is too much of an umbrella term and it can mean too many different things. And ultimately, if it means the willingness of two people to work on a relationship, then an extreme avoidant is incompatible with anyone and everyone. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 12:54:52 GMT
Incompatibility can absolutely be within attachment styles. You both have totally different fundamental needs that neither of you can meet, neither for each other within the relationship nor within yourselves outside the relationship. She gets upset and her needs become space and distance. When you're upset your needs are for reconnection. You lean in, she leans out. You believe you crave intimacy, she fears it. She gets nitpicky when threatened. You don't resolve conflicts together properly, you break up and nothing is stable. Ultimately, you do not have the same intimacy needs nor want the same thing in a relationship or it wouldn't be a constant power struggle. How is that description compatible? All the most important parts of stable commitment and consistent connection aren't there. It isn't compatible. Even if it's 90% day to day compatible and 10% not, the 10% is all the most important foundational stuff for a stable relationship's survival. I used to get into this thinking trap too. I was AP thinking my FA ex was the most compatible. 95%!! But the 5% made it so hard. I was wrong. We weren't compatible at all, I just wanted us to be and had such a low bar from horrible prior relationships, I almost didn't know better. But our foundation was thoroughly unhealthy. Over time, many years have passed now, we're thoroughly incompatible and have grown in opposite directions, including on values. Combination of his developing differently than mine and the capacity to go that way was always there but he wasn't totally forthcoming or vulnerable about showing me who he was in an effort to keep me around. Keep going to therapy. You're doing well in that regard, and you'll get somewhere on your journey in one direction or another. So, respectfully, I think the word “compatibility” is a moot point, completely useless in this case. Incompatibility and compatibility imply intrinsic characteristics of a connection, and thus it can definitely cause someone to feel shame about trying to make something work when it’s “incompatible.” I strongly believe that the truth is that that word “compatibility” does not apply to DA/FA and AP/secure relationships. Why? Because people with extreme avoidance will deactivate and become incompatible with someone they are compatible with. We all know that. It is not the fault of the AP or secure partner or some combination that they do not consider this back and forth “incompatibility”, 1) because attachments styles can and do change, it is not a fixed characteristic and 2) because the reasons these relationships don’t work is more nuanced and sad. Compatibility is too much of an umbrella term and it can mean too many different things. And ultimately, if it means the willingness of two people to work on a relationship, then an extreme avoidant is incompatible with anyone and everyone. I disagree, compatibility is exactly what's at question here, taking into consideration the below definition. If a couple can't maintain the relationship in a satisfying matter for the long term due to issues in communication or any other realm they are incompatible. I refer to the textbook definition of compatibility and take it that alexandra does too- beyond OP's fantasy and into the reality of being incompatible with someone who cannot pass the test of teamwork over time. Also, I needn't beat anyone up to say I am incompatible with them, it doesn't need to be anyone's fault. It just means their way of being is not for me. It takes time to determine such a thing and can't be ascertained in the earliest part of a relationship. I've learned that the hard way too but it's made me better at understanding true compatibility. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_compatibility |
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Post by doctora on Oct 10, 2021 4:09:53 GMT
Well I disagree with you, because according to the definition, it’s ease and comfort of communication… personality and interests. And that’s confusing here because in so many cases, that can be VERY compatible. However, if one person has a built in system that will reject the other for being compatible, then it’s something different. What’s going on here and for many of us, myself included, was far more confusing than compatibility or incompatibility. And I must say, your insistence that it’s not is invalidating and dismissive of many of our - and lemme just speak for myself actually - it’s dismissive of MY experience.
Again, if you want to post on a forum with people who have received inconsistent treatment and then apply a very black and white word that shames them, be my guest. I think you are being dismissive, but what do I know. I only have literally lived this for years.
It’s more complex than compatibility. Implying that it is also seems to suggest that an extreme avoidant can find someone more compatible. I am sorry, but this is not the case. They may be able to have a good relationship one day if they STOP BEING SO AVOIDANT, and thus, are able to be “compatible” with someone. Otherwise, an avoidant is only compatible - meaning, they have ease of communication - with someone they don’t know well, or don’t like that much, or doesn’t like them.
Let be clear - I do not disagree with the essence of what you are saying. (Extreme) Avoidants cannot work as a team. But the use of the word incompatibility with OP implies a failure on his part to recognize something that would never change. This is where the word falls short, because often it’s not clear that’s the case. The back and forth of closeness from the extreme avoidant is perhaps the most confusing and traumatizing part of these relationships because it is NOT clear, and there often is a significant aspect of the relationship that is compatible.
See, until I really felt like nothing would change, which happened recently, I still had hope that the incompatible aspect would become compatible - because apparently it sometimes does with work…now, I have no issue knowing that my ex and I are “incompatible”, because HE is incapable of growth, and thus incompatible with likely everyone he has potential to be romantically close with. It’s not like it HAD to be this way, it wasn’t inevitable - it was his decision to create incompatibility…see even now, the word just falls completely short of describing what actually happened.
Look, go ahead and disagree with me, but look at what OP said to you:
“ When I read your posts, I feel guilt and shame, that everything is my fault, and I am responsible for keeping this unhealthy relationship going, when I should let go.
But I know that responsibility of our dynamics is on both sides. For example today evening she just switched so much into being vulnerable and even needy for closeness, without any reason.”
Do you hear him, @introvert? Or are you going to dismiss his words? And mine? I understand it is not your intention to beat anyone up for anything, you have good intentions. But you said this here:
“ I guess to put it simply:
You're insisting you're compatible with a woman who continuously asserts that you're incompatible. (Because she doesn’t CONSISTENTLY assert this. She likely asserts this when she’s deactivating….at least my ex did this. And when they aren’t deactivating, they can often seem enthralled with their partner and how compatible they are.)
What does this mean to you? You think you are right and you can get her to see it? It's crazy making. And your bar for compatibility is very low if you insist on it against someone else's protests. Sure, she changes her mind. And she changes it again. (Completely dismissive of the partner of an avoidant’s confusion, experience, and whiplash. Dismissive of the fact that the aboidanrs behavior is actually crazy making and more damaging than the partners response.)
I'm only compatible with people who want to be in a relationship with me, and know it, so show it, consistently. That's the only thing that makes sense to me- in business, family, friends, romantic- it doesn't have to be so hard. (Well, it is hard to reach a breaking point, or to understand what the hell is going on. I suggest reading free to attach.com if you haven’t. There wouldn’t be websites and books dedicated to this if it “wasn’t so hard.”)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2021 4:38:01 GMT
Well I disagree with you, because according to the definition, it’s ease and comfort of communication… personality and interests. And that’s confusing here because in so many cases, that can be VERY compatible. However, if one person has a built in system that will reject the other for being compatible, then it’s something different. What’s going on here and for many of us, myself included, was far more confusing than compatibility or incompatibility. And I must say, your insistence that it’s not is invalidating and dismissive of many of our - and lemme just speak for myself actually - it’s dismissive of MY experience. Again, if you want to post on a forum with people who have received inconsistent treatment and then apply a very black and white word that shames them, be my guest. I think you are being dismissive, but what do I know. I only have literally lived this for years. It’s more complex than compatibility. Implying that it is also seems to suggest that an extreme avoidant can find someone more compatible. I am sorry, but this is not the case. They may be able to have a good relationship one day if they STOP BEING SO AVOIDANT, and thus, are able to be “compatible” with someone. Otherwise, an avoidant is only compatible - meaning, they have ease of communication - with someone they don’t know well, or don’t like that much, or doesn’t like them. Let be clear - I do not disagree with the essence of what you are saying. (Extreme) Avoidants cannot work as a team. But the use of the word incompatibility with OP implies a failure on his part to recognize something that would never change. This is where the word falls short, because often it’s not clear that’s the case. The back and forth of closeness from the extreme avoidant is perhaps the most confusing and traumatizing part of these relationships because it is NOT clear, and there often is a significant aspect of the relationship that is compatible. See, until I really felt like nothing would change, which happened recently, I still had hope that the incompatible aspect would become compatible - because apparently it sometimes does with work…now, I have no issue knowing that my ex and I are “incompatible”, because HE is incapable of growth, and thus incompatible with likely everyone he has potential to be romantically close with. It’s not like it HAD to be this way, it wasn’t inevitable - it was his decision to create incompatibility…see even now, the word just falls completely short of describing what actually happened. Look, go ahead and disagree with me, but look at what OP said to you: “ When I read your posts, I feel guilt and shame, that everything is my fault, and I am responsible for keeping this unhealthy relationship going, when I should let go. But I know that responsibility of our dynamics is on both sides. For example today evening she just switched so much into being vulnerable and even needy for closeness, without any reason.” Do you hear him, @introvert? Or are you going to dismiss his words? And mine? I understand it is not your intention to beat anyone up for anything, you have good intentions. But you said this here: “ I guess to put it simply: You're insisting you're compatible with a woman who continuously asserts that you're incompatible. (Because she doesn’t CONSISTENTLY assert this. She likely asserts this when she’s deactivating….at least my ex did this. And when they aren’t deactivating, they can often seem enthralled with their partner and how compatible they are.) What does this mean to you? You think you are right and you can get her to see it? It's crazy making. And your bar for compatibility is very low if you insist on it against someone else's protests. Sure, she changes her mind. And she changes it again. (Completely dismissive of the partner of an avoidant’s confusion, experience, and whiplash. Dismissive of the fact that the aboidanrs behavior is actually crazy making and more damaging than the partners response.) I'm only compatible with people who want to be in a relationship with me, and know it, so show it, consistently. That's the only thing that makes sense to me- in business, family, friends, romantic- it doesn't have to be so hard. (Well, it is hard to reach a breaking point, or to understand what the hell is going on. I suggest reading free to attach.com if you haven’t. There wouldn’t be websites and books dedicated to this if it “wasn’t so hard.”) Feel free to disagree and block if offended. |
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Post by doctora on Oct 10, 2021 5:10:17 GMT
Why would I block? That makes no sense. Did I say something wrong? I don’t think I minced words. I mean, I wrote a whole long post, you seem to not want to respond to any of it and that’s fine, but I wrote it for a reason, and that reason is that you are dismissive of OPs and by proxy, my experience, and that’s a stand alone fact. It’s not that you offended me. But I think for people who are trying to heal from these types of relationships, what you wrote could potentially hurt instead of help. This is a discussion/support forum, is it not?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2021 5:20:56 GMT
Why would I block? That makes no sense. Did I say something wrong? I don’t think I minced words. I mean, I wrote a whole long post, you seem to not want to respond to any of it and that’s fine, but I wrote it for a reason, and that reason is that you are dismissive of OPs and by proxy, my experience, and that’s a stand alone fact. It’s not that you offended me. But I think for people who are trying to heal from these types of relationships, what you wrote could potentially hurt instead of help. This is a discussion/support forum, is it not? You've interpreted my words not as I intended, but I don't wish to get into a long discussion about that. If what I have said does not resonate please disregard, and allow differences of opinion and perspective. We disagree on some things and that is normal for discussion boards. |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Oct 20, 2021 9:08:17 GMT
It’s more complex than compatibility. Implying that it is also seems to suggest that an extreme avoidant can find someone more compatible. I am sorry, but this is not the case. They may be able to have a good relationship one day if they STOP BEING SO AVOIDANT, and thus, are able to be “compatible” with someone. Otherwise, an avoidant is only compatible - meaning, they have ease of communication - with someone they don’t know well, or don’t like that much, or doesn’t like them.
[...]
Avoidants cannot work as a team. But the use of the word incompatibility with OP implies a failure on his part to recognize something that would never change. This is where the word falls short, because often it’s not clear that’s the case. The back and forth of closeness from the extreme avoidant is perhaps the most confusing and traumatizing part of these relationships because it is NOT clear, and there often is a significant aspect of the relationship that is compatible.
See, until I really felt like nothing would change, which happened recently, I still had hope that the incompatible aspect would become compatible - because apparently it sometimes does with work…now, I have no issue knowing that my ex and I are “incompatible”, because HE is incapable of growth, and thus incompatible with likely everyone he has potential to be romantically close with. It’s not like it HAD to be this way, it wasn’t inevitable - it was his decision to create incompatibility…see even now, the word just falls completely short of describing what actually happened.
Thank you doctora for sharing your experience. It is very close to my own experience with my avoidant girlfriend. Yes, I think that you described it perfectly - they choose to be incompatible, especially when they have an urgent need to withdrawn. And it all comes to a "perfect partner" institution. A fantasy of being with someone perfectly compatible with them - and it means that there will be no issues, no flaws, no differences, no need to put an effort and work into relationship. "I don't need to be in a relationship in which I need to set boundaries or work on, that is unhealthy, it just doesn't work, we are incompatible".
That mechanism can be clearly seen during our couple therapy. After individual sessions we went to our first (and last I think) couple meeting. Therapist asked about our relationship, confronted us with our fear of abandonment and fear of intimacy. Naming it and pointing situations that we are both driven by our fears. She asked us to do a homework - 10 phrases for each other describing when we feel being loved by our partner. Than we should exchange these lists, and discuss if we are able to fulfill these needs. And if we agree, AND WE WILL BE FULLY COMMITED TO WORK ON RELATIONSHIP, NOT WITH ONE FOOT OUT OF THE DOOR, we should come back to her to start a therapy.
When we came back home I only asked if she is going to write down our homework (because I knew how she can ignore and neglect any communication regarding our relationship), and she replied - yes I will. Those few days after the couple therapy was OK, we both were calm, nice to each other, close and intimate. At Sunday I was away, she got plenty of time so Monday morning I asked if she have done our homework. No, she did not. Day after I started to feel anxious, angry and I acted out - she had a week to just write 10 phrases, and she was unable to do it, despite having a plenty of free time to spend it watching TV series, etc. I turned into angry mode mixed with anxiety, which is a terrible feeling for me. I started protest behaviours, ignoring her presence and playing with kid instead. Yesterday evening we had a discussion, unfortunately with anger on both sides, and with her concentrating on me ignoring her and putting that issue in a center of the conflict.
She is running away. Running away when commitment is needed. When things get to serious, when she needs to confront her own fears. She even didn't acknowledged the fact that therapist told us that we both need to commit to relationship to continue therapy. She even didn't interpret therapist words as me being anxious and her being avoidant, despite the therapist naming few times fear of intimacy, dependency and commitment, when discussing her dismissal behaviours and states of anxiety when we are getting close.
Finally, during our discussion, she said that I am pushing her and she did not declared any commitment, she just wanted to know what is her attachment style and if it affects her relationships. She just shut down, respond my questions with silence, so I just left home.
I find here a paradox. How an avoidant can be fully commited to a relationship in the beggining of a therapy, if a commitment and shutting the door behind is one of her biggest and unconscious fears?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 12:52:24 GMT
To be clear, the first paragraphs are a reply from doctors about statements never made, but based on her own interpretations of what was said. There was not a discussion about whether or not an extreme avoidant could be compatible with someone else. So, the argument as far as my participation is concerned, is based on a false premise of something I've never proposed. I don't want to continue the discussion in any degree past what I've already stated, but wanted to make this clear as it is being carried forward here.
The only concern I consider relevant in choices about relationships are whether or not compatibility exists between the two individuals involved. Considering compatibility outside the relationship is a moot point in my opinion, but again- we all can disagree.
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