dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Oct 26, 2021 12:18:22 GMT
One last thing - what will the last straw for YOU look like? How many more times are you willing to do this?
That is very embarassing question for me. Year ago it was much easier for me to left her. Or I was just able to. Now I think that I am unable to. Last straws could be her cheating on me (most unlikely) or her breaking up with me definately, shutting the door for good. Bit unlikely as well.
I am trying to work on my boundaries, which is really tough. Her withdrawal from therapy (which is a fact), while pulling me again into status quo (undefined relationship with no commitment), is a crossing of my boundaries. It should be my turn now. She cannot met my needs (and I probably cannot met her, even if they are unhealthy and comes from her AT), therapy was a "last chance mission", I've done what I could, so goodbye.
Unfortunately I am still in a "fix it mode", but realising rationally it can't be done. Still I am unable to left her on my own.
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Post by doctora on Oct 27, 2021 3:09:49 GMT
First of all, yes I agree, but THIS HERE is what I was talking about. This, in comparison to this, what you wrote before:
"it is an anxious-leaning person's pattern to speculate about whether or not a partner who things aren't work out well with would do better with someone else. This is because the anxious person is searching for the "silver bullet" answer to what can they do and change to "make" the other person meet their needs. Which goes back to a childhood need to find ways to stay attached to an adult caregiver who didn't consistently meet their needs or even necessarily treat them well. So if the person would be more compatible with a different partner, it's 1. perceived as a failing for the anxious person to flog themselves with and 2. understanding why they'd be compatible elsewhere is seen as a blueprint for what pretzel shape to bend into to keep the partner around and try and try again."
ALL i am trying to say is this:
I do not think it is an anxious-preoccupied behavior to think about the compatibility and whether another partner could fare better...especially after a breakup. Why? Because in the aftermath/post-mortem of the DA's shutdowns, breakups, whatever, and especially if the DA blamed/criticiized the partner during it, (or said something like, "I just want to find a nice person who accepts me" - what my DA ex said hundreds of times during deactivations, when he would perceive my having any needs or requests as me not accepting him...) it is completely natural to mull over whether their assessment/blame/criticism is correct (which most of the time it isn't) and whether another person would be able to do better, whether the "fault" indeed lies with you, or whether it is just "incompatibility" that you didn't see. It's a thought process that one most go through to realize that no, it's not me, I've tried my best, this person is incapable of having a healthy relationship, period. No silver bullet, nothing.
It is EXTREMELY FREEING to acknowledge that no, it's not about you, the partner, who can be secure, AP, FA, WHATEVER...it's about the avoidant and how they are unable to have a healthy relationship. That is literally all. It is freeing to acknowledge how their behavior and attachment insecurities - especially if they are extreme - are untenable in any relationship. Sure, if they become less avoidant, maybe they can make it work, who knows, who cares, because it's not how they present now.
It doesn't necessarily have to be about trying to figure out how to preztel yourself to match what they need. It's a much more complicated thought process and again, I think it has to do with becoming secure and taking stock of what has happened, and making your own assessment of the situation...after cleaning up your side of the fence, you realize that the relationship not working is not your doing, not your fault, this is obviously this person's issue, I do not have the power to control it or change it."
I don’t think you are speaking to all AP attached individuals with your statement above…there have been plenty of people…myself included who found these boards due to a desire to understand why our ex avoidant partner is doing better with the next partner. And it certainly did for me at least feel like losing him was the same as it would be to lose my mom. I remember very well..in fact..it is documented in my earliest posts….trying to figure out how I could win him back. It was a very automatic response that had nothing to do with how feasible it was or whether he was deserving of such pedestal placing. Looking back on it…it had everything to do with my inability to self regulate and sensing in him a familiar pattern from my childhood…the..come close but not too close…the move away but not too far that I experienced from my mom. Sure, but we’re talking about two different things. You’re mentioning a typical anxious attachment response (rumination) to a situation where an ex seemed to be doing well with a new partner. In this situation, it would seem possible that the breakup wasn’t because he was extremely avoidant, and/or maybe your relationship had an anxious-avoidant dynamic because you yourself were also doing automatic AP/FA things…if this was all before you did all that work to become more secure. What I’m talking about it a little different…that is, wondering if a current (or ex or cycling) avoidant partner could do better with another theoretical partner given their patterns of DA behavior, AND given that you’ve done some work to “clean up your side of the fence” (a.k.a., after you’ve become more secure). These type of thoughts I feel can only happen after a few cycles, because only then do you have chances to apply the secure stuff that you’ve learned…(including but not limited to not taking things personally, self soothing, giving space, being more independent, being less reactive, communicating better, etc.) .if you never get back together, it’s actually harder to tell if it could have worked out had you been more secure. What I’m talking about is the type of thought you have when you’ve done everything you can and it’s still not working out bc they are still doing avoidant behaviors as if they were unaware of them. |
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Nov 17, 2021 14:05:53 GMT
Hello everyone.
It's over. I've decided to cut off and go no contact.
As you may remember, she didn't continued our couple therapy. She used an argument told her by her personal therapist, that "everyone has someattachment issues, but your main problem in this relationship is unability to set healthy boundaries". I did not argued, no sense doing it at all. But push&pull dynamic continued. She got closer and closer to me, she was calm, sensitive, touchy, again she used a term "my husband" (which was silly and childish). She even mentioned going to ski in February. Eventually we've ended in bed. After a good sex, full of closeness, she deactivated almost in a second! I asked. She told me that she is feeling emptiness, she feels nothing and that is terrible feeling for her. She even denied the fact, that before sex, she came to me and cuddled, kissed me passionately. She couldn't explained that.
Next day, it was over two weeks ago, she got her COVID test positively. I had negative, so was able to stay out of quarantine. During the quarantine I made her shopping, supplied and was on the phone everyday. Again her behaviour was changing in a more positive way towards me.
But it was too much for me. I was so resigned, so tired. I think of her as love of my life, but healthy relationship with her just can't happen. Maybe she would tune to other personality better, that's fine.
So, when the quarantine was over, I was very afraid of seeing her. I detached from her a bit, and it was good for my mental health. I was afraid of ruining it. So I told her, that it is over, we just can't handle it, we even have different views on reasons of our unhealthy dynamics. And I want to go no contact, because it is only solution that will work. She acknowledged it calmly, and agreed. But next day she called me, and told that she will go to AT specialist alone and asked me that maybe I could take sometimes her son for a trip, to the pool or to my house to spend some time with him.
So I feel like a traitor. I have still video contact with her son, he calls me or I call him. He is almost 6, bond is strong, I love him so much and I cry when I think I won't be able to teach him skiing, swimming, won't see him going to school. But it is the only solution. We were there already. Year ago when we split, I met her kid 2-3 times a week, and it ended in reconciliation. Which led me to the point where I am today.
There is a guilt I feel. Guilt of being too weak mentally, too anxious and too addicted to my ex, so I can't handle staying in kid's life.
But I know there is no other option. I know how prone I am for her reaching out. When she mentioned that she will go to therapist, I ingored it, but than had that feeling of stupid hope.
I am looking for an advice...how would you end it maturely? Just a clean breakup or I should told him that I need to leave, because I am no more in love with his mother, but will always love him and will never forget him?
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Post by annieb on Nov 17, 2021 14:51:42 GMT
I’m sorry this again went south. But you can’t break up with a child, only with and adult. When you break up with a child, you’re abandoning them. So, if you are ready to abandon your child, I guess that’s when you do it. Hint - you don’t. Figure out how you can coparent and stop physical intimacy. Case closed.
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Post by doctora on Nov 17, 2021 15:37:59 GMT
Annieb may be right but you’ve only been dating since 2018. I would try to be as much of a presence in the child’s life as you can without violating your own time/energy/money boundaries. It’s her kid after all. It sucks because the relationship happened in the child’s formative years (2-6?), but she is the primary attachment figure, NOT you. No, it may not be great for the child, but these things do happen and it doesn’t always result in insurmountable tumult for the kid….I suggest, don’t make it an abandonment, you can distance yourself and still make sure he knows you’re available to him with just a FaceTime call or the phone. You can still be present once in a while. You may eventually want to have kids with someone else, or have a lasting relationship with someone with children, so I do think if you’re not able to keep these boundaries between her and her kid, you will eventually suffer.
Is the biological father in her sons life at all?
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Nov 17, 2021 16:42:31 GMT
Thank you for your replies.
I know how unhealthy for me, and for her (thus indirectly for her kid) will be to keep my position in kid's life as it used to be. I was full-blown parent, invested in preschool, health issues, caring, activites. Staying in that position will implicate intense contact with my ex. We will be both unhappy and unable to move on. I am addicted to her for real and only solution is to keep myself away from drug source. And she, if she is really an FA (and I truly believe she is), will be still attached to me in somehow anxious way. And I can sense it now. She is not in a withdrawal/deactivation state of mind. She even texted me in the morning telling me that she's very emotional about our break up, feeling very anxious, experience insomnia, and thinking a lot about us. Such vulnerability was very, very rare in our history. Gosh, I love her so much when she is that real person. It results in connectivity and results in me being more attached. But we both need to go opposite direction, I believe. Such believe is very fragile, I need to work on it everyday.
So, doctora's advice resonates with me much more. Yes, it may be a solution. Being available ALWAYS via video call won't make it an abandonment. But what if he asks me to take him to the pool or visit him? Such questions are inevitable.
His father is in his life...barely. He is a terrible father. Visits him once per a week or two and they watch TV for 2 hours. During the whole 4 years he did not took him somewhere or be creative in spending time. And is totally uninterested in his life and grow. Kid never mentions him or asks whenever he will come.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 17, 2021 20:07:55 GMT
Don't tell him you're no longer in love with his mother. That's too much information for a 6 year old who won't understand the nuance of the situation. Keep it simpler and more neutral than that. Something more like, "Your mother and I have decided to end our romantic relationship, but that has nothing to do with you and doesn't change how much I love you." Though, shouldn't she be telling him about the break up, not you? Anyway, I agree to then tell him you're available to him if he calls etc. but you may also want to say you will be seeing him less for a little while so you and his mom can adjust to the new situation. To properly set his expectations and give yourself some space that you need without disappearing on him. Keep talking to him even if you don't see him. You can check back in with yourself later about whether or not you can handle in-person visits with him. You don't need to decide right this minute while you're still "addicted" to her and can take a bit of time to get some healing in first, then see what can work for you both from there.
What does your therapist have to say about it? Do they have suggestions for a healthy arrangement for between you and the kid?
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Nov 18, 2021 10:08:04 GMT
My therapist said that generally, till age of 7-9 kids are self-centered, and usually blame themselves for a loss of person that they are attached to. They usually do, but it is also not a gold rule. There are lot of circumstances: presence and meaning of other attachment figures (especially other male figure, but unfortunately I am the only one and my therapist noticed that), bond with his mother and her presence (it is very strong), personality traits, etc.
So there is high probability of collateral damage if I leave. I am aware of that and it literally kills me.
But my therapist focused on me and my healing path. He told me, and I agree, that even minimized contact, via video or phone call will feed my attachment to her. And I will still struggle to not contact her directly, and could eventually lost. Or she can contact me and probably will. And even if I win this struggle, my healing will take much much longer than maintaing no contact.
I agree, because I can feel deep within myself and my experience confirms his words. Yesterday evening we texted technically, on important matters that we need to close together. She called me, because "it was easier". Again she mentioned how mentally broken and anxious she is. But we've had a long, superficial, but very pleasant talk. We laughed a lot. Her voice was warm. You guys know for sure how dismissives can act cold, and discussion with them is like with a robot, when they are dismissive.
That contact decreased my level of anxiety to zero. I slept so well, for 9 hours. And today morning I've started to miss her again and think of her very warmly.
That is a clear evidence how dangerous any contact is with her for me.
I am still exploring any ideas, thank you for all advices, they are very very precious for me. I am leaving country for four days and I hope I will clear my mind a bit and have a better view next week.
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Nov 26, 2021 12:07:57 GMT
I've made my decision. I've decided to keep phone and video contact with kid. I will be available to him and also could check if I would handle meeting him later. Thank you very much for your advices, it was very helpful. First, when I made a decision, I was very grounded and confident that I am moving forward. But week after, I am struggling so much to detach from her. I got that awful feeling of dissonance. One side of me knows what is good for me. Other side just don't want to loose connection. It is fueled by my ex, but I am definately weak and prone to her reaching me out. So, she reached me after a week of no contact (apart from two video calls with her kid, but she wasn't involved). Few weeks ago I gave her Amir Levine's book, "Attached". She didn't read it that time, but suddenly, a week ago she texted me that she read it and it was fascinating mind opener. I asked her how shee feels about it. She replied that she is depressed, overwhelmed by her life, current situation with us, barely sleep and eat. I texted her some support and asked for a call late evening, to discuss our approach to kid and how do I receive my things from her place (without involving personal contact, which I am afraid of). She avoided it for next few days, and always had na excuse of being exhausted, physically and mentally. I was calm and waiting. Yesterday morning she proposed a meeting on a dinner in a restaurant, instead of evening talk, "it will be easier". Hell no! I've set a clear boundary to her that I don't want a personal contact and she knew why. I declined, but...it triggered me so badly towards "fix it" and "she misses and has strong doubts". I begun to fall aparat. My walls fall apart. Anxiety skyrocketed. Finally she called me the same day in the evening. We briefly made an agreement how to cope with kid and how I do receive my things. Than she started to be vulnerable. She cried. She told me that she is overwhelmed, thinks a lot about me and break up, needs closeness and support. She mentioned the book, said that she knows that attachment styles can change. Told me that she has doubts and looks for an answers. But then, out of a blue, she told that in one movie she heard the sentence "if you love someone, that person doesn't irritate you". I was totally baffled, because it just the opposite of my thinking. Opposite of what our couple therapist tried to concentrate on - why she does feel so irritated by me driving a car (I am a calm and good driver, amateur rally driver, and I've never made an accident) - just one of examples. Out therapist tried to put her attention that it can be not an irritation, but a defense mechanism made out of fear to put a distance. And it is literally the same defense mechanism describe in Amir Levine's book she recently read. I argued with it, but...she immediately had to shut down our discussion because it was late and she needs to...pee 
I find the sentence "if you love someone, that person doesn't irritate you" or "why I need to be in a relationship in which I need to compromise with my partner" (which she said about 2 yrs ago and after some time admitted it was immature approach), so much compliant with "perfect partner" figure described by Amir Levine. It is immature, even childish and so different from my appropach.
I know what I do, I know what drives me, I know what should I do. I am just venting. I just can't believe how defensive she is. I know it is now not my duty to help her in daily routine, but I asked her if she want me to take care of her car (needs some maintenance). But now I think that I am so stupid, nothing will change, all I do is just making myself suffer. Lying to myself. I shall went for a war to some forgot african country, without cell phone. Or embark on a ship that goes for a long journey. |
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Nov 26, 2021 14:27:29 GMT
And oh...a funny thing. My therapist told me I am FA leaning very anxious now, due to relationship with more avoidant person than I am.
We diagnosed every rleationsip I was in. In my first one (only one I got engaged and was really happy to the point when she cheated) I was secure. Then I've entered a dismissive phase, being dumped by secure GFs and was dumping APs.
How sweet!
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Post by alexandra on Nov 26, 2021 19:18:45 GMT
dexter, I can't find it but I'm pretty sure you'd shared some history at some point here? I agree with the therapist. It doesn't change anything other than giving you (and the therapist) and clearer blueprint for how to better address your issues in general and move forward in healing. And good on you for setting up some boundaries and sticking to them! I know it was hard, but keep doing it.
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Nov 27, 2021 13:39:26 GMT
Thank you alexandra. Keeping my boundaries is tough, and she tries to push them even more.
Yesterday evening I had a video call with her child. We've spent an hour playing games and we both ejoyed it very much. As I've mentioned, me and my ex agreed on a "plan" to keep contact via video calls and me being available anytime he wants. And we clearly agreed that my bond with this kid will eventually fade away naturally in time. And it is most healthy thing we can do, regarding the situation.
But she called me late evening and told me that she don't know what to expect, that I am inconsistent, because few months ago I've told her I won't abandon her child (yes I did, but contacting her and acting as a "part-time family" is unhealthy for everyone involved, it just doesn't work). Suggesting that he will lost the only real "male figure" she has and need to have. Asking me how do I imagine his future? That he will be 10 years old and we still be playing games via video calls? (come on, yesterday we agreed that contact will fade away naturally!). Eventually she said that I can take him out without contacting her - no dinners, no spending time as a family. I was so shocked that I told her that it would be very difficult for me, need time and will think about it. And ended our call.
I am so confused. I feel guilt. I feel being unseen, that my emotions an pain do not count at all. I feel being used. Maybe even being manipulated, but it depends on her intentions, which are totally unclear to me. I told her two weeks ago when I decided to go no contact (and she agreed it's best for us), that I feel like a traitor, that I cry because of abandoning the kid. And what she is doing now? She confirms through her words that I truly am. I feel guilt and shame. I explained her many times (most recently, when she wanted to meet at Thursday and why I want to take my things from her place when she will be away - and today I did) why I just can't meet her because of my strong feeling and healing process of detachment. Does my feelings count to her? Does she care?
I question her intentions. I know that I shouldn't, I shall just keep my boundaries and move on. But it's hard to believe that only reason for her behaviour are her kid's needs. In the past she was very confident that if we split, we should reduce my contact with her kind to the point of none at all. So, saying straight - if she uses her child as a tool to keep my around, that is VERY immature, irresponsible and dangerous for this little boy. My most healthy and secure reply to this situation would be a straight and honest communication. I should ask what really happened that she threw away everything we agreed to, with a help of a professional therapist. But I know that her answer will be that she just cares for him. So, no point at all in trying to communicate her.
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Post by anne12 on Nov 27, 2021 14:26:23 GMT
dexter Shes got a responsibility for her son too. Shes a doctor, so she can properly afford a nanny. Imo you are both acting immature. Theres also something called “adult friends” for children with only one parent or grandfathers/mothers who do not have their children/family nearby who do voulenteer work It can be difficult though as Europe seems to be closing down because of the pandemic Fas are master in having weak boundaries, crossing their own and other peoples boundaries. Be clear and direct. Tell her what you can offer at the moment and then stick to it. You can borrow my boundarie setting model and you can use the broken record method jebkinnisonforum.com/post/25919/ - boundarie setting model jebkinnisonforum.com/post/38350/ - broken record method
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dexter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by dexter on Nov 27, 2021 14:51:59 GMT
dexter Shes got a responsibility for her son too. Shes a doctor, so she can properly afford a nanny. Imo you are both acting immature. Theres also something called “adult friends” for children with only one parent or grandfathers/mothers who do not have their children/family nearby who do voulenteer work It can be difficult though as Europe seems to be closing down because of the pandemic Fas are master in having weak boundaries, crossing their own and other peoples boundaries. Be clear and direct. Tell her what you can offer at the moment and then stick to it. You can borrow my boundarie setting model and you can use the broken record method
I am not sure if you read my post carefully? She doesn't look for a help in her daily routine. She has a nanny and kid is attending preschool. She just want me to stay physically in her child's life. And presumabely in her life's too, as I suspect. But I may project, I dunno really. But both scenarios sucks for me, because she just declined all agreements we've made day before on how we cope with our brake up. She makes me feel as I was a traitor. Like she wants me to sacrifice myself, my mental health and my future to a non-healthy situationship that no one will benefit from.
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Post by anne12 on Nov 27, 2021 14:59:33 GMT
Sorry if I misunderstood something “… Like she wants me to sacrifice myself, my mental health and my future to a non-healthy situationship that no one will benefit from.…” Then don’t do it….grab your balls, get your power back, get out of the victim role, do anger exercises, do yang breaths which can help you to be more assertive, do the power pose, do haka, do the water tank exercise, straighten your spine, keep your own digenety…etc.. jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1198/victim-deal-negativity-role |
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