dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 5, 2021 9:56:31 GMT
Yes. I found such "manuals" on avoidant very helpful. And I know that it works. But I think it should come from my heart, instead of "learning the manual" ("learning avoidant for dummies"). That would be authentical.
Another question is...why she is not interested in reading "AP for dummies"? I think that is frequent problem with AP/DA (or FA) - we try to, they just expect. There is a lot of expectations from avoidants - "I want relationship MY WAY". It's a lack of flexibility and willingness to compromise.
Aaah last but not least - thanks to suggestions that came up here, that she is probably an FA, leaning more DA in my AP perspective, I've read a lot about FA. Then talked to her, asked few questions. Well yes, her phantom ex was more avoidant than she was and she acted AP, pursuing him and feeling anxious. But not acting-out at all.
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 5, 2021 11:31:56 GMT
Yes. I found such "manuals" on avoidant very helpful. And I know that it works. But I think it should come from my heart, instead of "learning the manual" ("learning avoidant for dummies"). That would be authentical.
Another question is...why she is not interested in reading "AP for dummies"? I think that is frequent problem with AP/DA (or FA) - we try to, they just expect. There is a lot of expectations from avoidants - "I want relationship MY WAY". It's a lack of flexibility and willingness to compromise.
Aaah last but not least - thanks to suggestions that came up here, that she is probably an FA, leaning more DA in my AP perspective, I've read a lot about FA. Then talked to her, asked few questions. Well yes, her phantom ex was more avoidant than she was and she acted AP, pursuing him and feeling anxious. But not acting-out at all.
The way things work best is if she works on her issues and you work on yours. If there is an AP manual you would like to share with her and she is open to it, then that is fantastic…but remember…your anxious attachment drives you to want to understand her in order to get your needs met…in her avoidant state, she isn’t going to need you to meet her needs. It can look like it is standoffish….but both of you are simply using maladapted ways to address fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment. Also…you are single…she is a mom….so she has priorities that you do not have. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 13:15:33 GMT
She said she just can't be available.
Listen.
Maybe sometimes she tries, and she is likely as her therapist said afraid to be parenting alone. It's HARD to parent alone and I understand if she is desperate but she has a therapist to help her work through it. She sees you as another child and it is too much.
She is a doctor, as well as being a single mom. She is in a very different life than you.
You get triggered when she is dealing with a sick kid and trying to get to her job as a doctor. You make it about you. Clearly, she finds this intolerable. You can criticize her reaction to you all you want but she is actually entitled to feel however she feels about you, and she will have to work it out. You two triggger each other and as I see it, the only reason you two are still together is because of unmitigated anxiety on each side.
She will necessarily put child and job first- ask yourself. Would you want to deal with this on top of that? Maybe you would but you can't accurately put yourself in her shoes as a parent. Nor as a doctor unless you are one. But now do you see how your trigger made you selfish in that critical moment, with a lack of time and a sick kid and a schedule to keep? Can you understand how she likely had a stressful day because of her parenting and job obligations? It seems like really your anxiety makes you too much- too high maintenance, for her.
When does she have time to read a manual on you? with a job and a kid and her own therapy? You seem to totally overlook that she is working with a therapist on OTHER things that you call "bullshit". She's not all about figuring you out like you are about her- her therapist is trying to get her healthy independently and you just can't stand that.
For that, I don't think you are the father figure you think you are. A Healthy mom, independently in a healthy way with her child, without stress and anxiety and a dysfunctional relationship, is what that boy needs. He doesn't need this, Only you do.
If she is FA as has been speculated in the thread, then she will want this periodically because of her anxiety, and then she won't. Wanting this because of anxiety doesn't make this healthy or ok. Being avoidant doesn't make up fictitious reasons this relationship doesn't work. Those are all just reactions to the toxic trap.
Does your anxiety look like "relationship virtue" to you? It seems so- it seems as though you take credit for trying to work it out as if that's a secure thing, when really you're trying to work it out with an unavailable person who says and shows she can't do a relationship with you. That's addiction and anxiety, not security and reasonableness. That's not problem solving it's dysfunction.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 14:49:04 GMT
Yes. I found such "manuals" on avoidant very helpful. And I know that it works. But I think it should come from my heart, instead of "learning the manual" ("learning avoidant for dummies"). That would be authentical.
Another question is...why she is not interested in reading "AP for dummies"? I think that is frequent problem with AP/DA (or FA) - we try to, they just expect. There is a lot of expectations from avoidants - "I want relationship MY WAY". It's a lack of flexibility and willingness to compromise.
Aaah last but not least - thanks to suggestions that came up here, that she is probably an FA, leaning more DA in my AP perspective, I've read a lot about FA. Then talked to her, asked few questions. Well yes, her phantom ex was more avoidant than she was and she acted AP, pursuing him and feeling anxious. But not acting-out at all.
" There is a lot of expectations from avoidants, - I want relationship MY way". Are you blind to this problem in yourself? My jaw dropped at this observation, coming from you. You spend a LOT of energy and time in protest behaviors, anxiety, insecurity, making demands... trying to get her to be and do and think and feel what you want her to be and do and think and feel. Your focus seems to be all about controlling her instead of accepting her. (Which would mean letting go - and you can't do that because not only do you want the relationship YOUR way, you want the relationship that she apparently said she can't do.) I'm pointing that out not to blame one or the other of you because you both are toxic to the relationship but seriously- you keep criticizing her and you are very hypocritical. Which just means you should refrain from taking inventory on her and just focus on your own problems. You will take them to your next relationship. This is too much to blame on someone outside yourself. |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 5, 2021 15:30:19 GMT
She said she just can't be available. Listen. Maybe sometimes she tries, and she is likely as her therapist said afraid to be parenting alone. It's HARD to parent alone and I understand if she is desperate but she has a therapist to help her work through it. She sees you as another child and it is too much. She is a doctor, as well as being a single mom. She is in a very different life than you. You get triggered when she is dealing with a sick kid and trying to get to her job as a doctor. You make it about you. Clearly, she finds this intolerable. You can criticize her reaction to you all you want but she is actually entitled to feel however she feels about you, and she will have to work it out. You two triggger each other and as I see it, the only reason you two are still together is because of unmitigated anxiety on each side. She will necessarily put child and job first- ask yourself. Would you want to deal with this on top of that? Maybe you would but you can't accurately put yourself in her shoes as a parent. Nor as a doctor unless you are one. But now do you see how your trigger made you selfish in that critical moment, with a lack of time and a sick kid and a schedule to keep? Can you understand how she likely had a stressful day because of her parenting and job obligations? It seems like really your anxiety makes you too much- too high maintenance, for her. When does she have time to read a manual on you? with a job and a kid and her own therapy? You seem to totally overlook that she is working with a therapist on OTHER things that you call "bullshit". She's not all about figuring you out like you are about her- her therapist is trying to get her healthy independently and you just can't stand that. For that, I don't think you are the father figure you think you are. A Healthy mom, independently in a healthy way with her child, without stress and anxiety and a dysfunctional relationship, is what that boy needs. He doesn't need this, Only you do. If she is FA as has been speculated in the thread, then she will want this periodically because of her anxiety, and then she won't. Wanting this because of anxiety doesn't make this healthy or ok. Being avoidant doesn't make up fictitious reasons this relationship doesn't work. Those are all just reactions to the toxic trap. Does your anxiety look like "relationship virtue" to you? It seems so- it seems as though you take credit for trying to work it out as if that's a secure thing, when really you're trying to work it out with an unavailable person who says and shows she can't do a relationship with you. That's addiction and anxiety, not security and reasonableness. That's not problem solving it's dysfunction.
I see some unfounded assumptions here.
She said she can't be available, but she said that she can and agrees how intimacy should exist in relationship. And throught those 3,5 years I saw her cycling between avaliability/being intimate and unavailability/shutting down. She is inconsistent in relationship, and it bothers her, because she wants to be stable, want a family, commitment and healthy dependency. That is why I am here. And I am not clingy, not focusing on relationship putting away all my activities, job, hobby, friends. I need space as well, but I want stability. Not a partner that flees away and than comes back. It triggers me, and yes, when triggered I am needy and was putting lot pressure.
I do not expect her to put me on the first place. Raising kid is a responsible, time-consuming process and I always understood that. I knew what I was into. And found that comfortable and even giving me satisfaction and happiness to help her raise him.
She works only for 6hrs per day, so she does not concentrate on job that much. And it was me that encouraged and supported her with starting diabetology specialization, which she is now into.
She got lot of free time, she spends it with me&kid (I am a freelancer) just like usual family. Yes, she has time for reading, it was she that asked me to send her links to avoidant characteristics etc. She reads that a lot.
Try to not judge me being a father figure only by my attachment style and on how do I function with avoidant. That kid misses me a lot, calls me everyday form mom's phone, telling me how he loves me, want to be like me. Every little boy in that age turns to man's figure. Non-secure people can act dysfunctional in relationships, but can be very good parents. And my ex is greatest example.
I don't know if you are reading my posts. I blame myself. Telling her and apologising, trying to explain what is going on here. But there is no feedback, she often uses that to put all blame on me, when I was hoping she would look inside her own and ask herself why she acts unhealthy, just as I do. So no, you're wrong. |
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Post by annieb on Sept 5, 2021 15:53:38 GMT
At this point I believe you should be simply focusing on coparenting. It’s more than obvious you are not compatible (regardless what you think you can say or do to change her to then get your needs met - hint - you can’t, no one can).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 16:02:33 GMT
She said she just can't be available. Listen. Maybe sometimes she tries, and she is likely as her therapist said afraid to be parenting alone. It's HARD to parent alone and I understand if she is desperate but she has a therapist to help her work through it. She sees you as another child and it is too much. She is a doctor, as well as being a single mom. She is in a very different life than you. You get triggered when she is dealing with a sick kid and trying to get to her job as a doctor. You make it about you. Clearly, she finds this intolerable. You can criticize her reaction to you all you want but she is actually entitled to feel however she feels about you, and she will have to work it out. You two triggger each other and as I see it, the only reason you two are still together is because of unmitigated anxiety on each side. She will necessarily put child and job first- ask yourself. Would you want to deal with this on top of that? Maybe you would but you can't accurately put yourself in her shoes as a parent. Nor as a doctor unless you are one. But now do you see how your trigger made you selfish in that critical moment, with a lack of time and a sick kid and a schedule to keep? Can you understand how she likely had a stressful day because of her parenting and job obligations? It seems like really your anxiety makes you too much- too high maintenance, for her. When does she have time to read a manual on you? with a job and a kid and her own therapy? You seem to totally overlook that she is working with a therapist on OTHER things that you call "bullshit". She's not all about figuring you out like you are about her- her therapist is trying to get her healthy independently and you just can't stand that. For that, I don't think you are the father figure you think you are. A Healthy mom, independently in a healthy way with her child, without stress and anxiety and a dysfunctional relationship, is what that boy needs. He doesn't need this, Only you do. If she is FA as has been speculated in the thread, then she will want this periodically because of her anxiety, and then she won't. Wanting this because of anxiety doesn't make this healthy or ok. Being avoidant doesn't make up fictitious reasons this relationship doesn't work. Those are all just reactions to the toxic trap. Does your anxiety look like "relationship virtue" to you? It seems so- it seems as though you take credit for trying to work it out as if that's a secure thing, when really you're trying to work it out with an unavailable person who says and shows she can't do a relationship with you. That's addiction and anxiety, not security and reasonableness. That's not problem solving it's dysfunction.
I see some unfounded assumptions here.
She said she can't be available, but she said that she can and agrees how intimacy should exist in relationship. And throught those 3,5 years I saw her cycling between avaliability/being intimate and unavailability/shutting down. She is inconsistent in relationship, and it bothers her, because she wants to be stable, want a family, commitment and healthy dependency. That is why I am here. And I am not clingy, not focusing on relationship putting away all my activities, job, hobby, friends. I need space as well, but I want stability. Not a partner that flees away and than comes back. It triggers me, and yes, when triggered I am needy and was putting lot pressure.
I do not expect her to put me on the first place. Raising kid is a responsible, time-consuming process and I always understood that. I knew what I was into. And found that comfortable and even giving me satisfaction and happiness to help her raise him.
She works only for 6hrs per day, so she does not concentrate on job that much. And it was me that encouraged and supported her with starting diabetology specialization, which she is now into.
She got lot of free time, she spends it with me&kid (I am a freelancer) just like usual family. Yes, she has time for reading, it was she that asked me to send her links to avoidant characteristics etc. She reads that a lot.
Try to not judge me being a father figure only by my attachment style and on how do I function with avoidant. That kid misses me a lot, calls me everyday form mom's phone, telling me how he loves me, want to be like me. Every little boy in that age turns to man's figure. Non-secure people can act dysfunctional in relationships, but can be very good parents. And my ex is greatest example.
I don't know if you are reading my posts. I blame myself. Telling her and apologising, trying to explain what is going on here. But there is no feedback, she often uses that to put all blame on me, when I was hoping she would look inside her own and ask herself why she acts unhealthy, just as I do. So no, you're wrong. You miss what I am saying. You trying to have a relationship with this woman is typical anxious preoccupied chasing. It's not about you blaming you- it's about you pursing a relationship with a partner who behaves as you describe. Do you not see that is futile? you think if you apologize enough she will become available or what? She's showing you that she can't be what you want- you hope she will look inside and change. And here is my point about being the father you think you are: She is the mother in a toxic entanglement with you. She is working with her therapist to develop healthy independence as a single mother- something that benefits the child more than this dysfunctional toxic instability does. You'd prefer she choose you, ok. But calling her therapy "bullshit" is indicative of your selfishness , regarding the child. If she weren't afraid of being along with the child she wouldn't be insecurely involving men in his life. Yes, I'm talking about you- she involved you way too quickly as a "father" and it's hurt everyone. This is something her therapist evidently sees as well. It's not bullshit it's what is good for mother and child. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 16:14:48 GMT
A little humor here though- I accept that you don't accept that she is not the partner you want her to be, and that you want her to change to meet your needs (presumably for her benefit as well as yours). She isn't showing you reciprocity, and you have to work out your own process around all of it. What will be will be. I've shared a perspective unhelpful to you and I of course accept that as well, and want to move on to other convos too. Best of luck!
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 6, 2021 7:54:40 GMT
introvert, that forum is made of hopes. Especially with AP pursuing avoidants. And the futility can be seen in almost every topic.
Damn, I know my perspective on us being a "family" can be unobjective. But we've had a plenty of great time together with this kid. Plain everyday life. We've been through dewaxing, illnesses, moments of fear, joy and pride, educating, trips, first bike ride. You know, all that usual things that makes life beautiful. And she enjoys it. There is so huge gap between what she enjoys, what she wants (two weeks before our split, when we were on our holidays, we discussed having another child) and what she is able to.
And yes, I had hope when I've learnt att style theory and it was enlighment for me. I had even more hope, when she replied to it and started reading freetoattach.com and agreed on almost everything. I had hope when I saw her trying to. Saw again that she loves me. Event last friday, she texted me with care. And withdrew immadiately.
My therapist said that if I move again towards secure, it won't help her. She will act the same. There is a trap in thinking that if we move towards secure, an avoidant will benefit (oh yes, one will but in different way we think) and move towards secure. No. We both need to reduce our fears, and we need to commit to face the fear and be inside relationship. Face the ups and downs, try hard.
Alexandra asked me why I clinged to the bread conflict that hard. It was not me that clinged to it. I overreacted, yes. Projected my fears. Get triggered and panicked, but managed to process it internally. My apologize to her was not a try to make her available again. It was a try to show her what happened and that is our pattern, a cliche. What I received was using my statement (and openess) as a weapon. She blamed me.
What's more, yesterday, two hours after that short phone talk which she just cut after three minutes, she video-called me, because her son was missing me. So I've chatted with him for some time and he insisted very much that I visit him that day. I had in mind that she cancelled our meeting, so I told him that I am occupied with my job. He insisted more, that maybe in the evening. Suddenly my ex showed up and said that if I able, I can come for dinner at 6 p.m. I've said that I don't know, need to work, I will let you know.
After video-call with her kid I called her to discuss the evening and told her "Yes I can come, but I am aware that you cancelled our meeting today, I don't want you to take decision based on your child needs if you need space form me and our conflicts. It's ok for me, we can stay on Tuesday meeting that we've planned. Please think about this and let me know, I will be home 5 pm.". She said that OK, and asked me to text her when I come back. So when I came back home, I texted as she wished. No response. Literally nothing.
I am fed up. It reached my boundaries of self respect, even if I can uderstand that she is driven by fear and is struggling with emotions maybe even stronger than mine. And I would totally accept, and think gave her reassurance of, that I would fully accept her need of space. Why she didn't just wrote "No, I am not ready for today's meeting. I need to be with myself, not with you"? I am trying to learn, to figure out what triggers her, figure out if I can act differently, but she do just nothing. Ignoring me that way feels so abusive.
That is a clear sign that she just don't want to, or just can't do ANYTHING. Even a small step.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 6, 2021 8:20:20 GMT
I am trying to figure out how do I feel about this. - part of me is feeling abused, and there is anger somewhere (that is anxious) - part of me is feeling dissapointed and just sad (that is calm feeling) - emphatetic part of me is feeling compassion and understanding, because it was best she can do at this very moment, and acted best she can to feel safe with her feelings. it's just what she needs now. and that part of me wants to say her "it's just ok" (that feels calm and safe for me) - no feel of abandonment, at least at conscious level
I am bit lost. |
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Post by krolle on Sept 6, 2021 9:02:33 GMT
Sorry you are feeling lost Dexter.
Despite the dysfunction in your relationship, I can understand a lot of the sentiments you describe. It is very painful to experience.
You have your weaknesses, but I do admire the way you are able to candidly talk about your feelings.
I have been staying out of this thread for a little while when I realized I wasn't really qualified or secure enough myself to help you all too much.
I could not see the same things the others were seeing in your behaviour. But I have been keeping an eye on it and hoping for the best for you.
One of the main problems I still have conceptualizing in 'secure behaviour' is the disregard for depth of connection and memory. Also the nature of the way humans value things due to investment, not because of their objective or 'actual' value.
For example in your situation I can tell over the 3 or 4 years there would have been a significant emotional investment in the relationship. Meaning parts of your brain will have formed a connection to her and the child. Powerful emotional memories that will have rewired parts of your brain to be bonded to her. Also, the investment will mean it's even more painful to give up on it. Even if the relationship is clearly not healthy for you.
I'm finding it hard to articulate. But the descriptions of secure behaviour. Like for example that a secure person will leave a relationship promptly if it's not meeting their needs seems somewhat unrealistic to me. I can understand it is the most practical solution, but it just doesn't seem 'human' for lack of a better word. At least in reference to a long term relationship where kids and things are involved. Though I can understand it the context of short term dating for sure.
But remember I am not secure. So just sharing my thoughts with you. Not presuming to give useful advice.
After reading a little more of what is going on between you and her I have wondered if she might be using you somewhat, perhaps not maliciously, but at least subconsciously. Of course there is attachment style dysfunction going on too. But the way you seem to do a lot for her and be always available, no matter how much she doesn't reciprocate, seems unbalanced. In a very AP way.
I can imagine she might like you, but probably doesn't respect you if she can treat you like that and you will still bend over backwards to 'help her'. Being too available and eager to please doesn't seem to be attractive to most people. I have seen many people take advantage of that situation, though they might be unaware of doing so.
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 6, 2021 10:43:54 GMT
krolle …..I think when forum members are talking about secure behavior….a secure would not even stay in an unhealthy dynamic for enough time to pass for there to be a bond with the partner and child at such a deep level. I have an amazing secure friend….a couple of years ago she started to date this guy who came across as a bit FA. She would talk to me about the things he would do…like say he was going to arrange activities and then not do it or flake out…I could tell she liked this guy, but this was in the very early stages and she was treating this as a time of looking at how well they fit together. Whenever there was something that bothered her, she would discuss it with him openly and they would determine how to address it as a team. They went on a trip (after a year of dating) to Germany…and he proposed. They got married this past summer and it is an incredibly strong bond. I think it is challenging when (as an insecure) there is either no boundaries, boundaries that are too strict or fluctuation between no boundaries and too strict boundaries to really grasp how a secure’s boundaries work. To my friend, it is effortless…she has boundaries that adjust based on the situation and since she trusts herself and others…she is very warm and welcoming, curious and funny. It is a dynamic that those of us who have trust issues from insecure attachments have to work on…which is why for an AP, it is important to trust him/herself and for an avoidant…to trust others.
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 6, 2021 10:53:19 GMT
Exactly, I just logged in to wrote the same. Secure won't attach, won't follow that super-fast dynamic that made her and me living together and putted me in a role of "father" in just under two months. Or secure would just go away and never each out after first serious deactivation and retreat from relationship presented by an avoidant.
Or, I guess, even when stron bonds and attachment was present, secure will see the futility, and that the relationship hurts himself. He choose, through self-respect and self-preservation, to walk away. Even if he feels lot of pain. That was how I behave after my first relationship, which was secure I guess on both sides, but different views on a balance between career/life put as apart, and resulted in her finding a new love, being still in relationship with me. That was an ultimate dealbreaker for me. It was pain in the ass (which maybe I still suffer from), but I've chosen myself and never ever reached out or responding to her, when she tried to contact me half a year later.
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 6, 2021 10:55:51 GMT
Exactly, I just logged in to wrote the same. Secure won't attach, won't follow that super-fast dynamic that made her and me living together and putted me in a role of "father" in just under two months. Or secure would just go away and never each out after first serious deactivation and retreat from relationship presented by an avoidant. Or, I guess, even when stron bonds and attachment was present, secure will see the futility, and that the relationship hurts himself. He choose, through self-respect and self-preservation, to walk away. Even if he feels lot of pain. That was how I behave after my first relationship, which was secure I guess on both sides, but different views on a balance between career/life put as apart, and resulted in her finding a new love, being still in relationship with me. That was an ultimate dealbreaker for me. It was pain in the ass (which maybe I still suffer from), but I've chosen myself and never ever reached out or responding to her, when she tried to contact me half a year later. Finding a new love while still in a relationship is not a secure behavior. I think both of you may have been insecure but just did not trigger each other. |
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dexter
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Post by dexter on Sept 6, 2021 11:04:32 GMT
After reading a little more of what is going on between you and her I have wondered if she might be using you somewhat, perhaps not maliciously, but at least subconsciously. Of course there is attachment style dysfunction going on too. But the way you seem to do a lot for her and be always available, no matter how much she doesn't reciprocate, seems unbalanced. In a very AP way. I can imagine she might like you, but probably doesn't respect you if she can treat you like that and you will still bend over backwards to 'help her'. Being too available and eager to please doesn't seem to be attractive to most people. I have seen many people take advantage of that situation, though they might be unaware of doing so.
No, she's not malicious. She's a great and loving person. Taking care of me and showing signs of love in a small gifts, cooking, washing and ironing my clothes. When things are OK, we are balanced. When she withdraws, we are not. So, question is - I am stable with my availability even if she withdraws. Shouldn't that be OK? I am still commited, but not putting pressure on being helpful if she don't want to. But she knows that I will always be there when she needs me. She said I've never dissapointed her in that matter and it feels good.
And regarding to being less attractive (let's put it simple) when being fully available. Isn't that insecure approach? Yes, she is sure and she vocalized it, that she feels so much more attracted to unavailable partner. And of course I saw that, when I was pulling away being tired of push&pull. She is even turning anxious and so feels so much physical desire for me that before learning att theory I even though that might be some traits of BPD (nah...).
So, I don't know if I am right, but it's so insecure.
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