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Post by krolle on Oct 26, 2021 13:18:31 GMT
I'm sorry you had to go through that for so long alexandra. It's a very awful place to be. I'm sure she is not intentionally manipulating me. At least I hope not. Butv I think she is acting in a psuedo abusive way just to avoid feeling of shame. Because I often did it I know the behaviours. But I often did it as a fawning response because I was frightened of the hostility of my partners. But I have been courteous and calm. At least from her perspective. only sporadic messages. And waiting patiently for replies etc. There has been very little pressure on my part. But she is stonewalling, gaslighting, ignoring, breadcrumbing, blaming me unfairly and I'm sure lying . Its just hard for me to know where I stand. That's why this pain is so prolonged and unresolved. I can deal with breakups at least somewhat well if they're expected. like you guys are just incompatible and you can see the arguments are increasing or having some huge deal breaker fights. Or an obvious betrayal or something. But this time it just came out of nowhere and was insidious. First off she canceled a mutual plan we had been arranging together for a couple weeks. Then from then on I'v just been getting scraps of attention. Just enough to keep me hanging on. I start to grieve then she messages me saying I wonder if I'v made a mistake and asks to meet up. but she's non committal to a time. Then When I ask for clarity she inevitably says something has come up and usually doesn't offer an alternative plan. We discussed together her starting to use the pill so we could have a little more intimate sex. But when she downgraded me to friend status and said sex was off the table because she didn't want to sleep with anyone she wasn't in a relationship with, and didn't want to be in a relationship at the moment. But was vague about things if I asked if we commited to being partners. And she is still planning going on the pill this week. I don't know how to interpret that any other way than she just met someone else and is too ashamed to deal with it so is just avoiding Things, and keeping me as a back up in case it doesn't work out via breadcrumbing. But the images of that are awful of course in my ruminitive current space. |
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Post by krolle on Oct 26, 2021 13:29:36 GMT
I agree @introvert. phone calls, or at least just a chat in person.
I would be respectful if we did call or meet. And do everything I could to control my emotions. But she has removed my ability to interact with her. Even just to say goodbye. Removed my ability to potentially solve problems.
Even the brief reasons she gave for distancing and how it was my fault were applied retro actively so I had no chance to meet her needs. She said "you did this this and this wrong and it's too late now" but people aren't mind readers. I didn't know I was doing anything wrong and she never communicated them to me.
I feel this was subconsciously intentional to give her a guilt free justification to get out. Kept a score of resentment I didn't even know was going on so she could tell herself at some point he's not right for me and avoid shame via a shield of blame. All the while I'm oblivious to it and think I'm meeting her needs.
It feels like gaslighting or something to have me believe it was all my fault when I didn't even know something was wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2021 13:37:08 GMT
I agree @introvert. phone calls, or at least just a chat in person. I would be respectful if we did call or meet. And do everything I could to control my emotions. But she has removed my ability to interact with her. Even just to say goodbye. Removed my ability to potentially solve problems. Even the brief reasons she gave for distancing and how it was my fault were applied retro actively so I had no chance to meet her needs. She said "you did this this and this wrong and it's too late now" but people aren't mind readers. I didn't know I was doing anything wrong and she never communicated them to me. I feel this was subconsciously intentional to give her a guilt free justification to get out. Kept a score of resentment I didn't even know was going on so she could tell herself at some point he's not right for me and avoid shame via a shield of blame. All the while I'm oblivious to it and think I'm meeting her needs. It feels like gaslighting or something to have me believe it was all my fault when I didn't even know something was wrong. I concur!! You are making sense. Way to recognize it! We need to have a standard for respectful, mature communication. Without it nothing good can happen, just a bunch of terrible insecure entanglement. |
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 26, 2021 15:46:05 GMT
krolle…it is hard to fight impulses and audio on repeat….I know….I still “at times” feel as if B was the one that got away….it is a crazy making, sensory overload position. And everyone can tell you to swim upstream…but the ultimate decision is yours….and we will stick by you no matter the choice. I think that is important for you to hear….there is no wrong choice when it comes to the support you will receive here. I am sending cyber hugs.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 26, 2021 16:52:19 GMT
krolle, just because I don't think she acted out intentionally or maliciously doesn't mean she's behaving acceptably in any way. You're not crazy because it's terrible and unfair to be flipped on and dismissed. It just doesn't change it's happening and that's now what she's shown you she is like, which is why it's basically the outcome that's important. Whether or not she does it immediately or swings back towards seeking connection with you to get back on the roller coaster, it will happen again at some point and it's terrible and terrible for you. So now you've got to figure out what you want to do with that, and as tnr9 said, and as I think I said earlier too, whatever that is is okay because you're seeing it all with eyes wide open and learning something from it. Sometimes those lessons take some time to sink in (like, maybe 20 unaware years lol, but more realistically probably a few tries once awareness has set in).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2021 17:18:47 GMT
krolle, just because I don't think she acted out intentionally or maliciously doesn't mean she's behaving acceptably in any way. You're not crazy because it's terrible and unfair to be flipped on and dismissed. It just doesn't change it's happening and that's now what she's shown you she is like, which is why it's basically the outcome that's important. Whether or not she does it immediately or swings back towards seeking connection with you to get back on the roller coaster, it will happen again at some point and it's terrible and terrible for you. So now you've got to figure out what you want to do with that, and as tnr9 said, and as I think I said earlier too, whatever that is is okay because you're seeing it all with eyes wide open and learning something from it. Sometimes those lessons take some time to sink in (like, maybe 20 unaware years lol, but more realistically probably a few tries once awareness has set in). I think it takes a lot of practicing boundaries to be able to make a big change- but it's good to know that change is possible and available when you're ready! |
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Post by annieb on Oct 26, 2021 17:28:27 GMT
krolle - hopefully therapy brings calm and a chance to reflect. We won’t know if she is manipulating, not ready for a relationship or something else unless she is forthcoming and I don’t find avoidants forthcoming just because I am AP in those moments. They will come around and tell us or show us with actions at a later time. Time will heal all wounds and your questions will be answered. Maybe not in a clear sequence, and exact words, but you will have a full picture, at a later time. For now focus only on yourself. How to regulate yourself and what soothing techniques to use. My therapist pushes me about every couple months towards sort of a breakthrough, as she’s gotten into a good rhythm with that and I’m receptive.. So yesterday we talked about my attachment issues with men and how it all makes me feel and more importantly why, and she encouraged me to remember if I could what was happening before age 2 for me. I have a few vivid childhood memories that i confirmed years ago with my sister so I know I’m not imagining this. But as a baby I was often left by myself. For hours and hours. My mom had addiction issues, so she was only about 50% there. So it’s no surprise that I’m the way I am, I just never thought about it negatively, or at least never thought about it as neglect. I have that memory and I’ve been conscious of it, but I never thought about how it could negatively affect me. As the times I remember I was playing, I was always playing and drawing and busy, and I had a wild imagination, but I was alone a lot. So this week she encouraged me to stay with the little me and spend time with her playing. And imagining how cute and sweet she is.  so.. Maybe by extension you could imagine little krolle and what a sweet baby he was and spend time with him this week. Do you think that’s doable? |
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Post by annieb on Oct 26, 2021 17:42:37 GMT
Just after I wrote that last message to you guys I had a wave of calm. For no specific reason. cognitively still struggling. But somatically was like being high. almost like waves of pleasure. Not the sexual kind. Kind of warm and relaxing.Then I fell asleep for an hour. If I could only work out what brought it on. I will add bipolar to the schmorgus board of avenues. I think this was after the first time you wrote a post for yourself. Like really for yourself, not people pleasing, and probably what felt like a vomit, but it reads like somebody who wants to help himself. As a secure person would. So maybe there was a surge of dopamine from the idea that you can purge, that you won’t be judged and that you’re deserving of the help and self love. And other love. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 18:20:47 GMT
Hey krolle, how you holding up? |
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Post by krolle on Oct 27, 2021 20:10:10 GMT
I don't know how I feel.
Of course she flaked yesterday. And didn't even message me until 11pm saying she had a bad day. But there was also a tag on to the message about residual feelings and a few breadcrumbs. Mostly her trying to justify herself though I think.
I didn't say anything on here because I'm too ashamed. I'm too ashamed I can't cut ties even though there's overwhelming evidence that's the best thing to do. Cognitively I know that. But my nervous system cannot accept it or reconcile the difference between who she was for the past 3 or 4 months vs who she is now. Without her saying to me plainly "I don't want you in my life" or "I used you" I can't physically bring myself to do it while there's even the smallest shred of hope. And I despise myself for that.
Having said that I gave up waiting around 6pm and spent Last evening with lady #2 who was absolutely charming. I made it clear to her I was still hung up on someone and in a really bad place psychologically. And she just said it's ok. I'm not desperate to get involved with anyone. Do you want to come round for lasagna. So I went round and spent the evening with her. And we just chatted most of the night about our adventures and such, and she was really sweet and accommodating to the fact I was visibly haggered and upset. She didn't seem either too eager to please or fix nor ignorant of how much I seemed hurt.
I felt kind of ok as I calmed down. And enjoyed her company in a non sexual way.
But this morning I had a bunch of back and forth text with lady #1. The first time I really probably came across as anxious and needy. I think I'm the closest to a full ghosting that I'v been. Which may be a good thing long term.
Right now I'm triggered hard anxious and unable to control my physiology or rumination. Very shakey. uncomfortable feeling.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 27, 2021 20:22:51 GMT
krolle, there's no need to be ashamed about having an attachment. It's okay. It took me 4.5 months to take some no contact from my FA ex after he broke up with me and it would have been way healthier to do it immediately. (Frankly, it would have been way healthier to break up with him 3 months earlier.) Plus I'd never in my life been able to go no contact with anyone before that, it took all my effort to break my pattern (even though choosing something different was a turning point in my dealing with my attachment issues). Keep posting when you want to, most of us have been here done that and don't see it as shameful, because it's not shameful. It just is.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 27, 2021 20:24:52 GMT
Also, your brain and emotions WILL catch up to each other. But it may take a little while.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 20:40:25 GMT
Ah krolle, I'm so sorry it went that way but of course, not surprising. And, I want to really encourage you about the shame piece. Maybe it's helpful to feel the kindred support, from those who have struggled long term with the anxious side of attachment. And even as avoidant, I have struggled with being able to let go in that mind bending situation with the diagnosed narcissist that I encountered. I think it was Brene Brown (people here have referenced her excellent work on shame) that said that shame cannot survive empathy. It's true. Anyway, thanks for sharing and continuing to trust us to support you, no matter the circumstances you find yourself fighting. I'm sure everyone here is pulling for you, for your well being. That is a process to come to, it's not an event. It takes time. The care you encounter along the way can make all the difference. |
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Post by krolle on Oct 28, 2021 2:54:17 GMT
It means an unbelievable amount to have this space and you people in support.
More than I can express.
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 28, 2021 13:47:43 GMT
I don't know how I feel. Of course she flaked yesterday. And didn't even message me until 11pm saying she had a bad day. But there was also a tag on to the message about residual feelings and a few breadcrumbs. Mostly her trying to justify herself though I think. I didn't say anything on here because I'm too ashamed. I'm too ashamed I can't cut ties even though there's overwhelming evidence that's the best thing to do. Cognitively I know that. But my nervous system cannot accept it or reconcile the difference between who she was for the past 3 or 4 months vs who she is now. Without her saying to me plainly "I don't want you in my life" or "I used you" I can't physically bring myself to do it while there's even the smallest shred of hope. And I despise myself for that. Having said that I gave up waiting around 6pm and spent Last evening with lady #2 who was absolutely charming. I made it clear to her I was still hung up on someone and in a really bad place psychologically. And she just said it's ok. I'm not desperate to get involved with anyone. Do you want to come round for lasagna. So I went round and spent the evening with her. And we just chatted most of the night about our adventures and such, and she was really sweet and accommodating to the fact I was visibly haggered and upset. She didn't seem either too eager to please or fix nor ignorant of how much I seemed hurt. I felt kind of ok as I calmed down. And enjoyed her company in a non sexual way. But this morning I had a bunch of back and forth text with lady #1. The first time I really probably came across as anxious and needy. I think I'm the closest to a full ghosting that I'v been. Which may be a good thing long term. Right now I'm triggered hard anxious and unable to control my physiology or rumination. Very shakey. uncomfortable feeling. I have been there krolle…you have all my compassion as I know it isn’t a choice…if it were, we would not choose it in a million years. Just keep reminding yourself that it is your nervous system and not you…..time and distance work wonders but there is no road map and everyone’s journey is unique so hang on. Hugs. |
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so..