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Post by lilyg on May 20, 2022 9:09:01 GMT
Hi sunrisequest , There are many elements of your experience I can relate to in the dynamic with an anxious partner (Or the anxious side of an FA partner). Having done quite a bit of work on my own side of the dynamic, and coming from the DA side toward much more secure in my relationship, I can also really relate to the lessons you've learned. The initial period does trigger a very poignant and touching feeling of being "seen" and understood, and that is something that attracted me to unhealthy insecure dynamics too- it was my own overwhelming need to be seen that clicked with someone who was overly engrossed in me (and saving me actually) rather than taking care of their own need to rescue, fix, and avoid themselves. So the dance begins. Like you I learned through the pain of being met without empathy on a bad day, that I needed more to empathize with myself, know my limits and know when I needed to encounter loving, secure support rather than insecure support from an unhealthy partner. I learned the difference, and found ways to meet that need by creating boundaries, and turning toward relationships that were healthier in my life. I began to cultivate health for myself and my dynamic by finding ways to meet my needs in healthy ways. By experiencing the backlash of not meeting the anxious partners expectations, I learned how I hurt myself by not allowing myself to feel, not allowing myself to be connected even if feeling flawed, my expectations of myself ignored my own needs just as much as an anxious partner ignored my needs. Before awareness, I had to try super hard to be a good person and to prove myself. That's exactly what anxious person demands- be a good partner to me, and prove it constantly. So it turns out , an anxious partner is my nightmare projection, the embodiment of my own inner critic. Your feelings don't matter. Your exhaustion doesn't matter. You are insufficient. You have a bad day? You're not a good person. Not able to show up 100%? You have failed everyone. These are the words of the AP to me, and the words of my harsh inner critic. So like anyone that I press to look at themselves and where they are creating and enabling this dynamic, I have done that introspection and transformed those negative internal messages, developed self love and self compassion, learned what the difference between healthy connection and insecure connection is, and embraced the former while letting go of the latter. This experience will truly help launch you into a better relationship, with yourself and with anyone you attempt to create a loving relationship with. As you know , the back and forth of the insecure dynamic, the sheer insult and abandonment of it, doesn't work for you. You can choose it out of your life, and you can change and develop your own capacities toward healthy relating. Love doesn't have to hurt so much! That's the huge lesson for me. I've grown by understanding myself, what my healthy needs and aspirations are, and putting those things at the forefront of my awareness. This is not selfish, because my healthy needs lead me toward connection, not away. My healthy needs create empathy in me- if I understand myself as a human who needs and wants to give love, I can understand my partner from that perspective also. Being healthy changes the landscape completely, from one-up one-down, to equality and partnership. Welcome to the board, I'm glad that it's been helpful to you in your process. I hope that things continue to be revealed to you that will liberate you and encourage you, even while you deal with the pain and loss of this toxic relationship. Thank you for your insight. I feel like this is happening to me. The thing about your needs being necessary for really connecting it's very inspiring!
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2022 12:51:23 GMT
Hi sunrisequest , There are many elements of your experience I can relate to in the dynamic with an anxious partner (Or the anxious side of an FA partner). Having done quite a bit of work on my own side of the dynamic, and coming from the DA side toward much more secure in my relationship, I can also really relate to the lessons you've learned. The initial period does trigger a very poignant and touching feeling of being "seen" and understood, and that is something that attracted me to unhealthy insecure dynamics too- it was my own overwhelming need to be seen that clicked with someone who was overly engrossed in me (and saving me actually) rather than taking care of their own need to rescue, fix, and avoid themselves. So the dance begins. Like you I learned through the pain of being met without empathy on a bad day, that I needed more to empathize with myself, know my limits and know when I needed to encounter loving, secure support rather than insecure support from an unhealthy partner. I learned the difference, and found ways to meet that need by creating boundaries, and turning toward relationships that were healthier in my life. I began to cultivate health for myself and my dynamic by finding ways to meet my needs in healthy ways. By experiencing the backlash of not meeting the anxious partners expectations, I learned how I hurt myself by not allowing myself to feel, not allowing myself to be connected even if feeling flawed, my expectations of myself ignored my own needs just as much as an anxious partner ignored my needs. Before awareness, I had to try super hard to be a good person and to prove myself. That's exactly what anxious person demands- be a good partner to me, and prove it constantly. So it turns out , an anxious partner is my nightmare projection, the embodiment of my own inner critic. Your feelings don't matter. Your exhaustion doesn't matter. You are insufficient. You have a bad day? You're not a good person. Not able to show up 100%? You have failed everyone. These are the words of the AP to me, and the words of my harsh inner critic. So like anyone that I press to look at themselves and where they are creating and enabling this dynamic, I have done that introspection and transformed those negative internal messages, developed self love and self compassion, learned what the difference between healthy connection and insecure connection is, and embraced the former while letting go of the latter. This experience will truly help launch you into a better relationship, with yourself and with anyone you attempt to create a loving relationship with. As you know , the back and forth of the insecure dynamic, the sheer insult and abandonment of it, doesn't work for you. You can choose it out of your life, and you can change and develop your own capacities toward healthy relating. Love doesn't have to hurt so much! That's the huge lesson for me. I've grown by understanding myself, what my healthy needs and aspirations are, and putting those things at the forefront of my awareness. This is not selfish, because my healthy needs lead me toward connection, not away. My healthy needs create empathy in me- if I understand myself as a human who needs and wants to give love, I can understand my partner from that perspective also. Being healthy changes the landscape completely, from one-up one-down, to equality and partnership. Welcome to the board, I'm glad that it's been helpful to you in your process. I hope that things continue to be revealed to you that will liberate you and encourage you, even while you deal with the pain and loss of this toxic relationship. Thank you for your insight. I feel like this is happening to me. The thing about your needs being necessary for really connecting it's very inspiring! I'd say this is the #1 reason to refuse to be controlled by a controlling person. If someone is so insecure they are trying to control and change you, they are NOT empathizing with you, they are essentially using you to patch their own insecurity. That isn't love, in fact it's so damaging. There is a lack of empathy inherent in insecure dynamics, and with that lack of empathy comes rejection of who you are and what you need. A partner should be able to love us as well as we love ourselves, and being "comfortable" or clinging to a damaging dynamic reveals a lack of love, care, trust and respect for ourselves. It's mirrored by the relationship. Once you can start to wake up to and reject the guilt that an insecure partner is trying to stick to you, you're in the home stretch. Being with someone who amplifies your own inner voice because theirs is loud, theirs is the one you are CONSCIOUS of, helps you see where your core wounds are. They are just helping you re-enact them. If you take a good look at what hurts every day in your relationship you can see exactly where where you need to love yourself better. Where you need boundaries and the voice of reason and compassion, toward yourself. It's totally an inside job. For anxious and avoidant. An avoidant challenges an AP to grow not by being able to give what is needed... by driving home the pain over and over again in futility. Same with an angry AP- they will drive home the pain over and over again until you are forced to protect yourself and stand up for yourself like you never have before perhaps. We all have a gift to give lol. Being free of the toxic trap of insecure dynamics is worth what it takes to get there... since we can't control what we are born into and how it shaped us, accepting it is what we finally have to do. And then doing the work and believing in yourself enough to complete it and get to the other side.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2022 13:19:25 GMT
If you have spent a long time and depleted yourself by trying to empathize with someone who isn't empathizing with you, self love can be saying NO, with no reservations. "It's become clear that our visions for a life together do not align. We both have given this our best shot... unfortunately that hasn't proven successful for either one of us, or for the relationship. The days when you could dump your anger on me have passed. We will be taking care of the logistics of separating our lives. In the meantime, I will be directing my time, activities, and resources as I deem appropriate. Any objection from you will not be entertained, and I will not be subjected to angry outbursts. You of course are free to be angry but I will not be present for it.". That's a NO, full stop. Only you can know when it's time to pull it out.
Anyone not yet at the point of laying it down like that can still use it as a template for boundaries, made softer or more accommodating as is appropriate, to the realities of the relationship and any chance being given for it to turn around. But fundamentally, it's the thing you have to do... say no to control and being flogged by someone's anger. Usually I think if it is at the point where you have to draw in the park alone instead of fellowshipping with friends.. and that's actually the control level.... it's serious.
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Post by sunrisequest on Jun 12, 2022 1:32:46 GMT
Just jumping back onto this to give what I hope is a final update in this situation.
I posted a little while ago to say my ex had got back in contact after 6 weeks of no contact. But then I started bumping into him everywhere in our community, and saw him or heard from him every other day for a week or two. I would be lying if I said there wasn't a tiny little part of me that didn't like being in contact with him because I wasn't totally over him.. it's been a tough few months of trying to get over him, and there's been a lot of highs and lows... a final text conversation a few weeks ago... I asked him if it was too late for us to have the conversation we never had when we broke up... he agreed immediately, and said he'd always wanted to talk more about it, that there was always time for us to understand each other. He said he'd be in touch in a few days for us to meet for a coffee. [some details omitted here for privacy]
I am so grateful I finally got the truth because any lingering feelings of longing have disappeared completely. I feel free and at peace... I see it all for what it was now, and I see how deeply wounded he is in order to behave this way and not even seem to see that it's completely messed up. He has shown literally no empathy whatsoever towards me. All of his actions are totally self-serving and at times emotionally dangerous.
I chose to react to all of this with complete silence. I wrote down all I wanted to say, and then I burned it and threw the ashes into the wind (literally!). He will never hear from me again, and if he tries to talk to me when he sees me, he will get the grey rock. I've blocked him from all forms of social media etc.
Fearful avoidant, yes, but this level of disrespect and dysfunction is beyond attachment wounds. Feeling like I dodged a bullet!!!! Also feeling sorry for the poor woman who is next in line, who has clearly also been love bombed and lied to (because who in their right mind would not be concerned at their new boyfriend posting pics of them together just hours after breaking up with their ex who they were in a serious and committed relationship with?!?). But that's their story. God, they looked happy on the posts. In full infatuation mode. Maybe one day I'll hear from her after he's screwed her life up.
Okay, signing off.. not sure if this story will help anyone else, but I guess it's just another piece of evidence that people don't just suddenly change after showing you who they are. And in fact, the truth of who they are can sometimes be darker and full of way more shadow than you ever knew when you were together.
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Post by deanna on Jun 12, 2022 13:08:35 GMT
sunrisequest - your ex is such a fker!! You are absolutely right that you dodged a bullet and that his behaviour extends beyond or cannot be reduced to attachment style. The bracing clarity of your post shows that you will be okay ultimately, and you have your certainty, but it still sucks big time that you had to go through this. Sending you every good wish, you deserve so much better x
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2022 14:41:23 GMT
sunrisequest - your ex is such a fker!! You are absolutely right that you dodged a bullet and that his behaviour extends beyond or cannot be reduced to attachment style. The bracing clarity of your post shows that you will be okay ultimately, and you have your certainty, but it still sucks big time that you had to go through this. Sending you every good wish, you deserve so much better x Agreed, sunrisequest. There's something more to this than attachment style. Pretty sick and twisted. The important thing here is to notice where you overrode your own limits to be with him, and give yourself the gift of listening to that inner voice that says "This is too much" "This hurts" "This exhausts me". We turn those messages down in favor of the messages we received early on, the messages that tell us we are wrong, mistaken, unimportant, our perceptions inaccurate, etc. I look back and can see that my truth was screaming from the beginning of all my toxic engagements and I had no faith in it, so I hushed it up and kept going. I mean, what do I know? I did the best I could but I didn't know what love was like obviously. I was confused by the inner messages. I figured no matter what happened I would be ok, so I took risks on bad bets. I don't do that any more, I listen and respond to myself. Which makes me much better at listening and responding to others. Connection to self = the ability to connect in a healthy way with those around us.
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Post by mrob on Jun 12, 2022 15:08:09 GMT
I’m not sure whether you’ll ever see this, but that’s textbook fearful avoidant behaviour, at the extreme end. Years of Al Anon aren’t wasted, and you now know what insecure attachment looks like enough to avoid it. Best of luck in your future. You’re right. You did dodge a bullet, and this man did do you a favour.
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Post by sunrisequest on Jun 12, 2022 22:40:42 GMT
deanna - thank you so much. Yeah, he's a fker alright. I know that my post does have clarity, but this whole experience has affected me deeply. There's been a lot of stress and I think my appetite only really returned after an almost three month hiatus a few days after I got my truth. I know you haven't had the same gift of closure. I hope your situation has moved on for the better in the meantime though? x @introvert - You're absolutely right. I know that me giving the benefit of the doubt and forgiving many iterations of the same thing is something that allowed this dynamic to continue for as long as it did. This experience led me to delve into my own attachment style in a way that I hadn't before, and I've learned so much that will serve me from this point onwards. My tendency to believe the best in people will surely been modified too, and I'll have my eyes open a bit more widely beyond here. Connection to self and listening to and honouring our own standards is surely where it's at. Although... and here's a bit of 'woo woo' to hopefully make you laugh. This final chapter was predicted by a tarot reading. The reading said that I wanted to let go of a connection completely because it wasn't serving me, but I wanted some confirmation of some things first. The advice was to keep smiling, pretend like I don't know anything (because that's what people expect of me cos I typically over-give and forgive and have a soft heart) and that will pull the truth out of that person, and then I can make my decision of how to cut free from that person. It happened exactly like that - I didn't need to ask him outright, I just feigned ignorance and he ended up laying it all out in front of me in the most ridiculous, cowardly way. I don't know how I feel about tarots, but this did make my eyes pop out my head a little bit!!! I know that It should have been enough for my inner voice to tell me what I needed to know to move on, but although it has shocked and hurt me, I feel a lot more peace this way... just the finality and clarity of it all has given me so much closure. A gift from the universe perhaps. mrob - I'll still hang around the boards for a bit - I'm sure I've still got more to learn, and it's been so useful for me to read everyone else's experiences. it really helps you to see the patterns of behaviour that just play out again and again, and the tried and tested ways that help people to move beyond it all. So you recognise this as being classic fearful avoidant stuff on the extreme end? That's interesting. I guess it makes sense. The timing of it is incredible though... that he could literally put the phone down from agreeing to meet with me, making out like he didn't have a clue why we broke up... to then pick up the phone again and create a post that he surely would know would hurt me horribly as well as out himself as having cheated. It's beyond my comprehension. But as I said to my friend, it felt like what he was trying to do was control my reaction to what he'd done... by blowing it up as much as he could... potentially hoping I would go crazy, which might also support some kind of story he has in his head about why he had to break up with me. he used to do that to a much lesser degree when we were together - he'd sabotage and create an argument if he suspected I was upset with him, so that he could control my reaction and blow it up. He figured this dynamic out with his therapist and told me about it, so he does have some awareness of the fact he does this. He's forgotten that I don't blow up and go crazy though - so the sad part for him is that my silence will be causing him all kind of anxiety, and when we inevitably bump into each other in our community, it will be awful for him, whereas I can hold my head high. He's not a bad person. He's actually a really good person who does some really messed up stuff. If I was to go with my gut about all of this... I'd say he did truly love me and he tried really, really hard to make it work. He wanted to change so he could keep me (which isn't the right motivation). He was reading the books and going to therapy, but he felt like he wasn't good enough for me. I'm more secure and aware than him, healthy isn't something he's used to and that felt scary for him, plus we were getting too close and committed and that also felt scary. So he blew it all up. And he's probably in a good deal of pain about that. He found someone who will allow him to not look at himself, at least for now... and that's totally his decision. But if his attachment wounding is this extreme, I doubt that any level of therapy would have gotten us to the same place and it would have always been a painful road for us to travel together. It's better this way and I am gratefully taking all the lessons with me. I fell in love with potential. A classic anxious move that I sure hope I'll never repeat.
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Post by cherrycola on Jun 13, 2022 3:40:14 GMT
The timing of it is incredible though... that he could literally put the phone down from agreeing to meet with me, making out like he didn't have a clue why we broke up... to then pick up the phone again and create a post that he surely would know would hurt me horribly as well as out himself as having cheated. It's beyond my comprehension. But as I said to my friend, it felt like what he was trying to do was control my reaction to what he'd done... by blowing it up as much as he could... potentially hoping I would go crazy, which might also support some kind of story he has in his head about why he had to break up with me. There is a very good possibility none of this is concious to him. When I used to lash out I had no clue why I was doing it. I just felt pain and didn't know what to do with it. I later learned that when I did hurtful things reactively, I was trying to get the other person to feel my pain. So it's really a cry for connection. But not one you are really aware of. Also, people who lack empathy often are not aware enough to determine that their actions could hurt you. They are so stuck in their own pain they are incapable of seeing yours.
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Post by sunrisequest on Jun 13, 2022 4:16:59 GMT
Thank you for that insight cherrycola . I'm sure that at least some of his behaviour is totally unconscious. I also agree that lashing out and being disrespectful in this way comes from a place of pain. There were many times in our relationship where he was totally vulnerable and told me the inner workings of his head, admitted to where he was sabotaging, told me about some of his family trauma and how it was affecting his relationships... I could see the pain he was experiencing as he fought against these patterns. I hope that one day he will succeed in fighting against them because he's actually an extraordinary human behind all the layers of shit. I think because some of my very on-the-surface traits are empathy and patience, and also because I have a big focus on growth etc... he probably thought he'd met someone who would finally put up with or remove some of these layers. But it doesn't work that way as we all know. I'm aware that I have spent a lot of time trying to understand his motivation from the breakup onwards, and perhaps this is wasted time... because I'll never truly know, and I'll bet he doesn't really know, which is why I chose to not even talk to him after this latest lashing out. For some reason, his motivation and the truth of his cheating is something I just really really really wanted to know and understand. I'm also aware that by projecting a negative interpretation of his actions, and casting him in a certain way, allows me to find peace with it and move on more quickly and easily. Which is what I need right now. But I do see the shades of grey in this. I have to remember that I still have AP tendencies and that I will often make excuses for people who treat me badly and give them extra chances. But I am doing everything I can to not let that happen this time. for me to close the door on even being friends with someone I loved is a really big deal for me.
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Post by cherrycola on Jun 13, 2022 5:38:20 GMT
There were many times in our relationship where he was totally vulnerable and told me the inner workings of his head, admitted to where he was sabotaging, told me about some of his family trauma and how it was affecting his relationships... This one really is a hook eh? So so close but so far away. It can take a bit to see the difference between someone who is starting to become aware and someone who is far enough along to actually show up and do the work. You really have to understand how those behaviors serve you and things you can try instead. You have to have enough self esteem to try and fail. Even now sometimes I fall back into old habits or ways of relating and catch myself, re-center and try again. It's also deeply uncomfortable. I have to be able to feel that discomfort, acknowledge it and then do the thing I don't want to do anyways. Usually it's setting a boundary or asking for a need to be met. But people who aren't far enough along feel that anxiety or fear and turn away from it.
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Post by sunrisequest on Jun 13, 2022 6:14:42 GMT
Yep, it really is a very big hook. At times it did feel like we were very close. The way we communicated when he wasn't triggered was beyond any other partnership I've ever had. But he's not there yet, he's not ready. He got really close at times and I think I did provide safety and security for him to see things he'd never seen before and express them to me. But it all became too much and he literally ran from it all in the end. I honestly don't think he realises this is what he did. He was looking at me for reasons he felt such anxiety and fear... which is a shame, but I understand it. I told him so many times how important his needs were to me and all he had to do was express them to me, but towards the end, he literally couldn't say anything at all. And then there's the fact that he also couldn't let me express my needs without feeling threatened.
I don't begrudge the time I spent waiting to see if he could pull it together... 9 months isn't a crazy amount of time to linger and as I've said, I think these were lessons I needed, but I definitely wouldn't do things the same next time around.
I'm glad that you've found a way to sit in that discomfort and to be able to re-centre yourself. That's all that any of us can hope for with deeply ingrained patterns of relating.
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Post by sunrisequest on Jun 23, 2022 3:27:51 GMT
I have a question I was hoping some of you might have a bit of insight into... maybe the better place for it would be on the AP board, but seeing as it's attached to this story... thought I'd put it here.
I've been continuing to process everything that happened with my ex-FA... and there's something that's keeping me a bit stuck. I'm struggling with is the fact that I have never said a single word to him about how I feel about the way he treated me.
I've been feeling some fairly big surges of anger in the last week, and I can easily trace it back to the way he disrespected me. It's not to do with the relationship not working out and ending... but to do with the way he deceived me, promised things he most likely knew he couldn't follow through on, played with my heart, the lies, the cheating, the cold disrespectful way he ended it on the phone, and the horrible social media posts which I can only assume was a way to avoid having to have an actual conversation about what he'd done. I still don't know what would motivate him to do that, but that's beside the point.
At the time of the actual breakup, even though I was hurt, I kept my cool and took the high road, went above and beyond to thank him for the good times, wishing him the best etc. Afterwards when I suspected he had overlapped with someone else, I didn't say anything at all until I knew for sure, and then I blocked him on social media (we weren't friends or following each other so it didn't make a huge difference), but beyond that I've given no reaction. I can see why just blocking and moving on is a good and healthy step. But part of me is being triggered here... this is the part of me that has allowed people to treat me with disrespect over the years and inside I am seething, but I haven't said anything. Or what I've said is so controlled and doesn't necessarily reflect the depth of my pain. I don't know where the line is in that between people pleasing and just having strength to walk away and not expend my energy on people who don't deserve it.
So what I'm asking I guess is... for those of you who have healed your anxious tendencies, do you feel that finding a way to process this anger alone and away from someone who has hurt you to be beneficial? Or is there healing to be gotten from stepping up and calling out this behaviour for what it is?
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Post by alexandra on Jun 23, 2022 3:55:08 GMT
The short answer to your question is, once you're beyond the point of no return in an anxious/avoidant trap situation, it's not really helpful to confront someone long after the fact. They're very unlikely to give you a satisfactory response and may just say whatever they think you want to hear to get out of the situation (freeze/fawn/fight/flight). Which is where dealing with it on your own can be more helpful. However, if the person is willing to discuss things even if it results in them shutting down, it can be beneficial from the standpoint of practicing your own communication and listening skills. But in this case it will probably be better for you to work on communication and connecting better with your own needs with safer people who are still in your life. Ultimately, the problem you're facing is that you get stuck in your own emotional processing and can't clear all the "stages" (think about the stages of grief for example, denial, anger, sadness, bargaining, acceptance... you need to process through the rest before you get to acceptance, though it may not be linear or predictable or equal time devoted to each stage). It's quite common for insecure attachers to have difficulty with anger specifically, often because they were taught when younger that it wasn't okay rather than taught how to process it when it came up. I'd recommend you look through anne12 's thread on anger. jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1468/angerpattern-boundaries-shamebuttons-healthy-anger
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Post by anne12 on Jun 23, 2022 4:27:12 GMT
“ I went above and beyond to thank him for the good times, wishing him the best etc.” - why ? What happend when you did the two chair anger exercise ? - jebkinnisonforum.com/post/25648/Did it build up more anger or ? What did your ex do ? If it builds up more and more anger, you can change your sentences. If it dosent work / he is hot listening, and you dont get a gift back from him you are allowed to say to him that he is just HOPELESS!!! Instead of you yourself confronting him, you could send someone else to confront him (in your imagination) You can also bring in a resource (a person in your imagination) who would listen to you, the way your ex wasent able to listen to you - do you have any one that you can think of ? Did he give you a gift ? jebkinnisonforum.com/post/31864/Sometimes you have to do these exercises more than once. And maybe you have to grieve in between In the thread link alexandra posted there is a letter of anger you can ✍️- jebkinnisonforum.com/post/38961/There is also a boundary setting model you can work with, but don’t send it Is you ex running around with your ❤️? - you can take it back - jebkinnisonforum.com/post/40696/
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