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Post by seeking on Dec 5, 2022 18:17:16 GMT
On a side note, I remember my ex having this (terror of engulfment) to such a degree it was startling and made me definitely super anxious. We were split up, had a kid together, he came around (I guess in "cover narc literature" they call this "hoovering") and we ended up sleeping together and some time after, I said (sort of jokingly since we *already had a child together*) "So does this make us boyfriend and girlfriend now?" And he flipped out. That scared him so much. Meanwhile, the anxious part of me wanted to know if he was just trying to get laid versus making an effort to get us back together. But that was the very worst engulfment fear I've ever witnessed. I don't think mine is quite that bad. And yet he's gone on to be in an LTR and on his second kid with that person (and she already has other kids who lost their dad). So weird to me.
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Post by seeking on Dec 5, 2022 18:22:11 GMT
I think my energy is more about either fight or disappear where I'm standing, as in not adrenalized flight but back away slowly while my heart and mind go elsewhere. So high tone dorsal, possibly? Like a bracing freeze and dissociation (mild)?
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Post by introvert on Dec 5, 2022 18:40:45 GMT
I think my energy is more about either fight or disappear where I'm standing, as in not adrenalized flight but back away slowly while my heart and mind go elsewhere. So high tone dorsal, possibly? Like a bracing freeze and dissociation (mild)? Yeah I guess I'm not too familiar with the terminology but it feels like a walking away internally kind of. Hard to describe when it's not actually going on, impossible to describe when it is haha. But not something that requires vacating the area immediately. I think DA are somewhat able to escape internally, which goes with the description I shared in one of my other posts about not running from a relationship so much as giving up over time. The emergency is absent.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 6, 2022 15:27:42 GMT
One thing that’s been missed though is that fear of engulfment. That need to get out as an FA. The life threatening urgency to get away. That’s loud, I assure you. Nothing stealthy about that. Oops, yes I missed that because I don't experience the emergency energy. Definitely nothing stealth about that. The closest I've come is during a fight when tempers are high but it's not a feature of my attachment generally. I would love to understand more about the fear of engulfment as you experience it. For me, it is a desire to flee because I sense the person wants something from me that I can’t or do not want to offer. I either feel too seen or not seen correctly (as in, I feel the person is projecting traits onto me that I do not see in myself or it hasn’t been enough time). I get resentful at a perceived expectation of me and I just want to run.
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Post by usernametaken on Dec 6, 2022 15:44:23 GMT
Oops, yes I missed that because I don't experience the emergency energy. Definitely nothing stealth about that. The closest I've come is during a fight when tempers are high but it's not a feature of my attachment generally. I would love to understand more about the fear of engulfment as you experience it. For me, it is a desire to flee because I sense the person wants something from me that I can’t or do not want to offer. I either feel too seen or not seen correctly (as in, I feel the person is projecting traits onto me that I do not see in myself or it hasn’t been enough time). I get resentful at a perceived expectation of me and I just want to run. This is also how I experience it. I want out or to manage your expectations down because I know I can't meet them.
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Post by seeking on Dec 6, 2022 18:19:51 GMT
So TNR and Username, is there pathology in your responses? They are avoidant? I'm kind of looking at this going, well, yeah, that's normal, no?
I guess theoretically I know that secure types don't have fear of expectations?
I also wrote about an old situation above with my ex - and I can see where this applies - how in my question, "Are we boyfriend and girlfriend now?" his avoidance heard a list of (maybe implied) expectations or a demand of some kind. . . I think his current partner has very low expectations, so I'm imagining that is in part how they are able to "work" (if they're even working, I don't know) (they're still together and having more kids).
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Post by introvert on Dec 6, 2022 18:22:58 GMT
Oops, yes I missed that because I don't experience the emergency energy. Definitely nothing stealth about that. The closest I've come is during a fight when tempers are high but it's not a feature of my attachment generally. I would love to understand more about the fear of engulfment as you experience it. For me, it is a desire to flee because I sense the person wants something from me that I can’t or do not want to offer. I either feel too seen or not seen correctly (as in, I feel the person is projecting traits onto me that I do not see in myself or it hasn’t been enough time). I get resentful at a perceived expectation of me and I just want to run. I'll give it a shot, to try to explain because I haven't really nailed it down myself... I experience flight energy when in an argument and I feel walked over... words put in my mouth, accusations against me especially pertaining to my motives (being misread or blamed). I just feel so angry and if I will lose myself in trying to defend myself and I can't tolerate it, I'd rather be alone and stand by myself than be trod on. I feel engulfment fears when for example, I am going through an advancing stage of the relationship like talking about cohabitation. When this came up for me in this relationship I had a sense of despair and foreboding that I might lose my time, my inside time, or be expected to be "on" all the time and giving more than I have to give. The feeling was not to run however, I just had a feeling of impending doom that made me feel stuck. Otherwise, I feel able to put myself in a bubble as if I can avoid engulfment internally... like I mentioned I don't have to be alone to isolate and get distance. I feel able to insulate myself with my inner life and boundaries. I feel the fight and flight around toxic behavior from another. I don't fear engulglfment much with commitment but again I think it might be because I operate in the one person psychology some still. I have a lot of autonomy that can be difficult to breach, at least I get that impression from past partners and even in this relationship my partner has commented. So really I only feel the real activation under aggression which is pretty normal I think? I also don't experience a lot of engukfment because I stay on the edge of connection for the most part. Not with my partner, but we were friends for 5 months before we began dating so I eased in. I have a couple close friends that I'm intimate with emotionally but we are very independent, I don't get together with people a lot for shared activities. But I'm not antisocial, I like people, I just like solitude a whole lot too. Overall engulfment feels like a problem I don't experience much because I know myself to be on an island of sorts. I think my parents were not at all engulfing they were neglectful. I will have to go back and read that to see if it makes sense, I'm hashing it out. Short version, I don't feel a panic and need to escape much. I just kind of put things that threaten me Over There.
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Post by introvert on Dec 6, 2022 18:25:22 GMT
And I'd say I don't have a fear of expectations but that's NOW, in my before-life I'm sure that was heavy. But a frustrating thing to me and my exes was my ability to disappear while still there and it kept me in shit situations too long. Also triggered the heck out of insecure partners, while I went to my inner sanctum and became immersed in my own mind and activities.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 6, 2022 20:49:32 GMT
So TNR and Username, is there pathology in your responses? They are avoidant? I'm kind of looking at this going, well, yeah, that's normal, no? I guess theoretically I know that secure types don't have fear of expectations? I also wrote about an old situation above with my ex - and I can see where this applies - how in my question, "Are we boyfriend and girlfriend now?" his avoidance heard a list of (maybe implied) expectations or a demand of some kind. . . I think his current partner has very low expectations, so I'm imagining that is in part how they are able to "work" (if they're even working, I don't know) (they're still together and having more kids). It's normal to avoidance, which is estimated to be about 30% of the population, so it's not uncommon and you can find plenty of people who do think it's normal, but that doesn't make it emotionally healthy. I've always tested with extremely low avoidance, including when I was high AP, and I'd never felt what you're all describing except for when I was transitioning to secure and trying to figure out for the first time ever where my boundaries were and what was healthy. Once I sorted that out, it went away again because other people don't threaten my internal sense of self or regulation. If someone seems to be expecting too much, I'll just honestly communicate about what I can deliver (and if I can't meet their expectations, I probably feel bad about it but it is what it is), and then my actions will line up with my words so I've done my part to be respectful. If they have an issue with it and fail to communicate about it from there, I can't do anything about that so I'm not getting dysregulated over it. That in my opinion is the secure description. My AP response was to overextend myself to try to meet or exceed the expectations, not shy away from it, and not feel resentful about it but get overwhelmed and stressed later on without understanding why (because I wasn't connected to my own needs and wasn't realizing that I was putting myself second so the overwhelm was my own needs not being met).
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Post by seeking on Dec 6, 2022 23:04:24 GMT
So really I only feel the real activation under aggression which is pretty normal I think? That's what I was thinking based on what you described. And thanks for hashing out what you did - I can relate to A LOT of it. When you put it the way you have, I don't seem to have fear of engulfment. And what was your original attachment style? I don't remember
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Post by introvert on Dec 6, 2022 23:50:22 GMT
So really I only feel the real activation under aggression which is pretty normal I think? That's what I was thinking based on what you described. And thanks for hashing out what you did - I can relate to A LOT of it. When you put it the way you have, I don't seem to have fear of engulfment. And what was your original attachment style? I don't remember Mostly DA, some FA and a small slice of AP in the tests, but predominantly DA in relationships confirmed by a therapist. However I've grown pretty secure over the last 3 years or so and don't experience much attachment stuff other than some general traits I guess. Like I'm not struggling with anything attachment related these days.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 7, 2022 2:46:24 GMT
So TNR and Username, is there pathology in your responses? They are avoidant? I'm kind of looking at this going, well, yeah, that's normal, no? I guess theoretically I know that secure types don't have fear of expectations? I also wrote about an old situation above with my ex - and I can see where this applies - how in my question, "Are we boyfriend and girlfriend now?" his avoidance heard a list of (maybe implied) expectations or a demand of some kind. . . I think his current partner has very low expectations, so I'm imagining that is in part how they are able to "work" (if they're even working, I don't know) (they're still together and having more kids). I would say it isn’t pathology…I would say it is a learned response from my childhood. It did not start with “others”…it started with mom primarily and was a way to protect what I saw as “me” from what she “expected” of or from me. I did not have words for “back off this feels icky”, plus….I wanted her to love me for me….thus, this weird mix of fear of losing her and fear of being engulfed by her. And it really does boil down to poor boundaries….my boundaries when I fear abandonment are non existent and when I fear engulfment are walls with moats and more walls. I used to think this was normal too until I experienced it in my faith. It was this…hey, that is great that you say you love me….stay over there…..and I will stay waaaaay over here. I think what makes it part of insecure attachment is it does not feel at all like a choice…..I get these warning bells going off and I just want to create distance. I hope that helps a bit.
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Post by introvert on Dec 7, 2022 16:15:04 GMT
So really I only feel the real activation under aggression which is pretty normal I think? That's what I was thinking based on what you described. And thanks for hashing out what you did - I can relate to A LOT of it. When you put it the way you have, I don't seem to have fear of engulfment. And what was your original attachment style? I don't remember It seems to me that it really depends on your childhood dynamic, whether or not you got engulfment wounding, abandonment wounding (which all of it is) or for me, the wounding of being feeling invisible which seems to have led to avoidant coping and the isolation and lack of belonging and connection. While there are general templates for the styles, there are nuances and individual circumstances that contribute. As I have reflected, I can come up with an area that I have engulfment fears and that is around religion. My parents were unloving but very religious, and like most unhealthy people they were not introspective with their beliefs, they did a lot of projecting and controlling outwardly. So I have had to work through engulfment without realizing that was the term when it comes to my own spiritual life and practices. I'd say it still triggers me and I choose not to have contact with the family members that practice their fundamental evangelical religion because they completely wiped me out and abused me with their religion for a long time. I was the black sheep to them because I rejected their system. I do still have wounds and triggers around that, that I work with. Thank goodness I don't have that active in my life anymore and I feel connection in my own spiritual beliefs and practices.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 7, 2022 16:24:37 GMT
That's what I was thinking based on what you described. And thanks for hashing out what you did - I can relate to A LOT of it. When you put it the way you have, I don't seem to have fear of engulfment. And what was your original attachment style? I don't remember It seems to me that it really depends on your childhood dynamic, whether or not you got engulfment wounding, abandonment wounding (which all of it is) or for me, the wounding of being feeling invisible which seems to have led to avoidant coping and the isolation and lack of belonging and connection. While there are general templates for the styles, there are nuances and individual circumstances that contribute. As I have reflected, I can come up with an area that I have engulfment fears and that is around religion. My parents were unloving but very religious, and like most unhealthy people they were not introspective with their beliefs, they did a lot of projecting and controlling outwardly. So I have had to work through engulfment without realizing that was the term when it comes to my own spiritual life and practices. I'd say it still triggers me and I choose not to have contact with the family members that practice their fundamental evangelical religion because they completely wiped me out and abused me with their religion for a long time. I was the black sheep to them because I rejected their system. I do still have wounds and triggers around that, that I work with. Thank goodness I don't have that active in my life anymore and I feel connection in my own spiritual beliefs and practices. I am so sorry you went through that….faith is so personal and to have that thrust upon you in a devaluing way is horrible. Thank you sharing these painful realities from your childhood…I am many readers will be able to relate.
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Post by introvert on Dec 7, 2022 20:13:32 GMT
It seems to me that it really depends on your childhood dynamic, whether or not you got engulfment wounding, abandonment wounding (which all of it is) or for me, the wounding of being feeling invisible which seems to have led to avoidant coping and the isolation and lack of belonging and connection. While there are general templates for the styles, there are nuances and individual circumstances that contribute. As I have reflected, I can come up with an area that I have engulfment fears and that is around religion. My parents were unloving but very religious, and like most unhealthy people they were not introspective with their beliefs, they did a lot of projecting and controlling outwardly. So I have had to work through engulfment without realizing that was the term when it comes to my own spiritual life and practices. I'd say it still triggers me and I choose not to have contact with the family members that practice their fundamental evangelical religion because they completely wiped me out and abused me with their religion for a long time. I was the black sheep to them because I rejected their system. I do still have wounds and triggers around that, that I work with. Thank goodness I don't have that active in my life anymore and I feel connection in my own spiritual beliefs and practices. I am so sorry you went through that….faith is so personal and to have that thrust upon you in a devaluing way is horrible. Thank you sharing these painful realities from your childhood…I am many readers will be able to relate. Thank you for that, tnr9. It was so shaming, the way that everything I experienced was blamed on me for my lack of faith and the fact I wasn't a "believer". My thoughts, feelings, aspirations were all subject to judgement and dismissal simply because I didn't share their religious ideas... I was rendered illegitimate in many ways. Being the scapegoat in a religious family was sickening. I am the only one in the family that went my own way spiritually,and they all ended up with serious problems long that persisted long after I made my escape and found some truth that nurtured me. So I guess that's a pretty big deal to me still although if I don't subject myself to their dynamic I am ok.
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