katy
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Post by katy on Apr 12, 2016 18:13:58 GMT
After lots of thinking and research, I have come to the conclusion that I need to understand how to quickly identify avoidants. I realize now that I was very uninformed and too trusting with an avoidant who turned out to be very demeaning and rejecting.
I now understand that the potential for a person to be an avoidant always exists. I definitely will be much more aware that initial charm may be part of how an avoidant interacts with new people. I certainly saw, firsthand, how initial charm can quickly turn into total rejection.
The avoidant whom I dealt with seemed to be looking for friends and appeared to be very eager to build a good friendship with me and my husband.
I now know that, because of ignorance and an inclination to be too forgiving, I ignored some clear early warning signs that things were not as they seemed. As I look back at what happened to me, here are some early indicators that probably indicated that I was dealing with an avoidant:
Demographics
The avoidant I dealt with was over 40 years old and was apparently unattached. There was never any discussion of previous marriages or children.
He was an excellent writer and had published several autobiographical articles on his Web site. One article was about the love of his life who walked out on him and how devastated he was by being abandoned.
Communications
Early in our friendship, in an e-mail and several times when we were talking, he mentioned that he was always busy and that he could be hard to reach.
The avoidant told me several times how exhausting and unpleasant it was having to talk with so many people for his business. The intimation always seemed to be that they are totally a drag to talk with but that I was great and that he loved talking with me.
He totally controlled how we communicated. At five and a half months, when the push / pull rejection began, he supposedly became much busier with his business and he suddenly stated that phone calls had to be eliminated and that he would only communicate via text messages. Then, a bit later, he complained that my text messages were too long. Then he complained that I was contacting him too often. As time went on, he often delayed more and more in responding to my text messages. I was very dumb and actually thought for a while that he actually was busy with his business. I now look back and realize that I initiated more contacts with him than he did with me. But, early in the relationship, he seemed thrilled to communicate and would immediately, happily respond to me.
Several times, in early conversations, I noticed that he seemed slightly narcissistic, but I didn't realize at the time how much more serious narcissism can be than somebody just being slightly vain or slightly domineering in a conversation.
I was surprised that several times he didn't remember basic facts about us such as where we lived.
There were several times that he suddenly announced that he had full-blown construction and business projects underway. It seemed at the time very odd to me that he'd never discussed any planning for these major projects with a supposedly good friend.
My Reactions
I'm usually fairly confident dealing with new people. From the beginning, I was always somewhat insecure dealing with the avoidant. I wasn't sure exactly what to say, how to say it, or what he thought of me. As I look back, I think that I sensed somehow that our relationship was more tenuous than he claimed.
Strange Stories
I heard about the woman who was supposedly his good friend and that they were working on a project together. Then, he told me that she began to demean him. He explained to me that he was the soul of patience, he even tried to encourage her to take her anti-depressants, and finally he had to fully reject her. Except that I was only called emotionally unstable, it sounds like a very familiar story.
There was a story about the avoidant’s experience with the military draft. My husband was in the military and is a history teacher and was highly suspicious of the story. He did a little digging around and said that he felt that the details of avoidant’s story were not true. I thought at the time there was just a mix-up in the details but now, I'm sure there was probably more to it.
As I've said before, I was uninformed, very trusting, too forgiving, and was led down the rosy path. I think it's important for all of us to heal and to learn from our experiences dealing with avoidants. I'm curious to know what other people have now realized were early clues that they were dealing with avoidants.
Thanks!
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raco
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Post by raco on Apr 13, 2016 14:30:07 GMT
Very interesting message, katy. I believe there are indeed very early hints when someone has an avoidant attachment type. Here are some of the signs I noticed (I do not include some signs that are documented everywhere). I only have experience with 3 avoidant people (though I may know other avoidants without realizing it), but I think that the following signs are valid. Avoidants, in my opinion: - tell you very little about their life, and try to compensate that by telling you about insignificant details. An avoidant friend once told me about his weekend, saying that he had dinner with some friends and cooked this and that. I asked him to tell me more about those friends because I knew almost nothing about his life, and he replied by describing the dishes he cooked with more details, without saying anything about the people (this was the exact moment when I started realizing that something was wrong, after several months of relationship).
- don't like using the phone. Several other members of the forum mentioned that, if I remember correctly. One avoidant I know told me he hates using the phone, though we were not considering communicating via phone. And as you said, katy, they can control the way they communicate with us. I often felt that I had no choice but to be passive, letting the avoidant choose the moment, the duration, and the mean of communication.
- can have no problem with sex in itself, but can be incapable of cuddling, and will try to find a way to avoid it (for example, by sleeping directly after sex, or by making jokes or being playful to break the romantic atmosphere).
- can be jealous because of their partner, but their jealousy is more triggered by the threat of a sexual intercourse than by the threat of an emotional bond with another person (the opposite of what an anxious-preoccupied would feel, I think). When jealous, they can suddenly stop being distant and do things they would usually not do (like contacting you often, on the phone, etc). The avoidant I know who was jealous did not express his jealousy at all, he just started to act in a much warmer way than usual.
- can appear uninterested when you tell them about your life, even when they requested some information.
What I noticed with the avoidants I know is that I always started to feel that something is awkward very quickly, but I did not feel that consciously. The awkward things seemed to be insignificant and subtle at first, and I only realized that they were some clear signs of an avoidant personality afterwards.
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katy
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Post by katy on Apr 13, 2016 17:13:52 GMT
Raco,
Thanks for your response. You verified what I had experienced and actually reminded me of several other things that had happened.
"I often felt that I had no choice but to be passive, letting the avoidant choose the moment, the duration, and the mean of communication."
This was the worst part of the whole thing for me - the constant feeling of dangling at the whim of somebody else. I'm normally a take-charge person who deals on an equal footing with people. The phone/text message drama ended up being absolutely horrible for me.
"Tell you very little about their life, and try to compensate that by telling you about insignificant details."
Totally true - when we talked, he would often plunge into a very detailed description of that day's events, but, as I look back, the big picture was never revealed.
"They can suddenly stop being distant and do things they would usually not do (like contacting you often, on the phone, etc.)."
This totally describes a weird incident. After about a month of the his inconsistent, delayed responses to text messages, I began to try to figure out what in the world was really going on. I found information on attachment styles and immediately recognized him as being an avoidant and saw some very anxious tendencies developing in me. All of the documentation that I found said that avoidant and anxious personalities are a combination that is a disaster.
I sent him a message saying that after doing some research, I saw avoidant tendencies in him and anxious tendencies in me. He immediately responded that he confused many people because he is so friendly but that he never lets anybody get close. That seemed like a pretty clear admission that he knows that he is an avoidant and that he has had trouble in the past with misleading other people. I knew that the best thing was to back away and I sent him a message saying thanks for everything that I had learned from him and hoping that he had benefitted in some way from knowing me. My plan was to drift away.
Two days later, the man who had had absolutely no time to talk on the phone for months, was on the phone with all of the time in the world to chat about the article that I had written three months earlier to publish on his Web site. Sad to say, the charm didn't last too long. On the phone, he begged me to do some immediate article rewrites and then never bothered to respond to me for two weeks. It was as though he had disappeared - I actually wondered if he was sick or dead. He finally showed back up after two weeks and angrily told me that he had no time for me because he had so many important people calling him and that I should be like other people and just be grateful for any tidbits of attention that he could grant to me. That was the beginning of the end. I do confess, I had a very hard time understanding how a person who had seemed so bright and so in touch, could actually be this odd.
"What I noticed with the avoidants I know is that I always started to feel that something is awkward very quickly, but I did not feel that consciously. The awkward things seemed to be insignificant and subtle at first, and I only realized that they were some clear signs of an avoidant personality afterwards."
As I was writing my initial post, I wondered if my own feelings of being off-balance were actually the most reliable warning signal that something wasn't right about this person. As I look back, I think he was using his initial charm to cover up being a solo operator who really finds dealing with other people a burden. And, I now can see that, if you know what you are looking for, the dance with one foot out the door was fairly obvious from very early in the relationship.
I just hope that we can all learn some good lessons about how to spot avoidants and how to deal with them in the very limited way that they are capable of handling. I think probably avoidants are great as auto mechanics or grocery store managers or the programmers who write bank ATM software. What they are not good at is being friends or love interests.
Best wishes to you.
Katy
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raco
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Post by raco on Apr 13, 2016 23:53:46 GMT
I sent him a message saying that after doing some research, I saw avoidant tendencies in him and anxious tendencies in me. He immediately responded that he confused many people because he is so friendly but that he never lets anybody get close. That seemed like a pretty clear admission that he knows that he is an avoidant and that he has had trouble in the past with misleading other people. I knew that the best thing was to back away and I sent him a message saying thanks for everything that I had learned from him and hoping that he had benefitted in some way from knowing me. My plan was to drift away.
Two days later, the man who had had absolutely no time to talk on the phone for months, was on the phone with all of the time in the world to chat about the article that I had written three months earlier to publish on his Web site.
I guess he felt that he was about to lose you, so he stopped being distant. I'm almost surprised that he admitted having avoidant tendencies (though on the Internet, I read a lot of testimonials of avoidants who realize that they are avoidants). If you show to an avoidant that you begin to know his real personality, then I guess it can only push him further away, because avoidants want you to deal with their fake personality only. If you know who they really are, then you're a threat to them, because it's a form of real intimacy. I also said to an avoidant that I thought he had an avoidant attachment type, with a long list of facts to backup my claim. He didn't admit that what I said was true, he just said that there was no problem between us, that everything was fine. His reply was two lines long though my message was very long. I still wonder if it was a lie or if he really believes what he said. It seems to me that avoidants can sincerely believe any fake fact that allows them to feel more comfortable. Sad to say, the charm didn't last too long. Maybe he realized that things would not be the same with you anymore, as you tried to know him for real. Maybe he prefered to find someone else to do the same thing again, because the beginning of a new relationship seems nice to him. Good luck to his next "friend" :-).
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Post by Mary on Apr 14, 2016 18:51:02 GMT
"I'm almost surprised that he admitted having avoidant tendencies (though on the Internet, I read a lot of testimonials of avoidants who realize that they are avoidants)"
I think there is some mixup with intertwining narcissism and avoidant tendencies. Some of what I see above that are problems are possibly stemming from narcissism. I think that some narcissists are avoidant, but I have also seen some narcissists be more anxious. As an avoidant, I attract the anxious, and some who are anxious and narcissistic. I think the inability to see inside yourself is more a narcissistic trait than an avoidant. I can only speak for myself, but I am avoidant and I can reflect inward and see it. I went to therapy to figure this all out after having a very bad relationship with a narcissist. As an avoidant, I do push/pull but I don't demean or devalue, I just run away. I guess I'm just saying that not all avoidants are the same as I think there are traits that come from other reasons and not just the avoidant part.
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raco
Junior Member
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Post by raco on Apr 14, 2016 19:50:46 GMT
Mary, thank you for your message. It's nice to have the point of view of an avoidant. I saw the things I listed above in some people who I'm pretty sure are not narcissists. Narcissists love to talk about them and to show they are better than you. The avoidants I know don't do that at all, they seem actually very humble. Yes, I was surprised to hear about an avoidant admitting his avoidance . Avoidants are known for believing things will be alright when they find the perfect partner. Which means they see the problem in their partner rather than in themselves. This is what I saw in one avoidant I know.
And when they have a partner, suddenly, their partner has lots of flaws, while their ex-partner becomes great and they wish they could date her/him again. In their mind, the problem lies in their partner, not in them.
Another member of the forum who is avoidant said this: Avoidants don't consciously realize that they have a problem, therefore they rationalize the problems as belonging to their partner's. Of course, not all avoidants are the same. Some of them may be able to realize and even to admit that they're avoidants. But if avoidants were facing the truth, they would not need deactivating strategies like the ones they usually use. They would say things like "Sorry, your idea of a romantic weekend together makes me uncomfortable, I'd rather do something less romantic". If you are able to say that, that's great, but avoidants are rather known for withdrawing using some false excuses, without being straightforward. I'd be surprised if they would be conscious of what is happening inside their mind, and decided consciously to find a false excuse like "Sorry, I have to much work, I will be busy this weekend". Is that what they do?
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katy
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Post by katy on Apr 14, 2016 21:23:19 GMT
Thank you both for your responses. I don't actually know who I really dealt with or what his real problem actually is. I've also had some on-going thoughts that he might be a narcissist. For whatever it's worth, my friend's husband, who is a psychiatrist, who has known me for years and heard five minutes of this story, immediately decreed that he is a narcissist.
Statistically, there are more avoidants than narcissists in the population, but as Jeb says in his book, narcissists may just be further down on the avoidant continuum.
I freely admit that I didn't have a clue about avoidant behavior. I'd had five and a half months of very kind, polite interaction with a person whom I knew other people admired. We seemed to be happily writing an article together about training my rescue dog (this fellow is a very experienced dog breeder and had helped me learn to manage our dog's hard-wired guarding behaviors) and I felt as though I had met a very enterprising, fascinating person.
My husband and I were planning on visiting him and, when he found out that my husband's former boss had moved very close to him, he even suggested that my husband should talk to his former boss about hiring him so that we could move and be his neighbors. Obviously, some of that I took with a grain of salt, but I certainly assumed that we were friends.
He seemed to have plenty of time to talk and text pictures of puppies. He sort of positioned himself as our dog's pseudo- godfather and wanted to keep up on details about our dog's training, he and I were involved in writing an article, and he and my husband would exchange messages to each other with me as the go-between. It seemed absolutely fun and innocent but to an avoidant or a narcissist, I was probably getting too comfortable in assuming a level of closeness and that I could count on him in the future as a friend.
When he told me that his workload had picked up and that phone calls were tough because he was busy training and delivering puppies to their new owners, I believed him. After two months of being more and more strangely rejected (supposedly always because he was so busy with work), it was almost as though, at times, I was dealing with a different person. But, in the middle of the rejection, he suddenly invited me to visit for a week to help him show his dogs in a dog show. I had no idea what was going on until I found Jeb's Web site and books.
The end actually came sooner than the dog show. At the end, he was somewhat mean, but I don't know if he was acting as a frustrated avoidant thinking that the only way to get rid of somebody who didn't understand that he needed them to immediately go away was to get angry or if his meanness was a touch of a narcissist's rage because I dared to complain about his high-handed behavior.
At one point, several months ago, after months of silence, he suddenly said that he would text me changes to my 30 page article! I told him that we needed to talk to each other to work effectively and that I was sure that we could compromise on a communications method that would work for both of us. Not a peep in response. So, at the very least, he has very poor compromise skills.
I've sadly given up on him and I've given up on ever publishing the article. I've tried to look back to see my mistakes in being uninformed and too trusting and too forgiving. I've also tried to understand the subtleties of his early behavior so that I'll better be able to identify if new people I meet could be avoidants or narcissists. I found myself not trusting somebody that I met a few weeks ago because, even though she was kind, she immediately said that she was so busy. That is not how I would have reacted in the past. I'm sure as all of this knowledge becomes integrated into my personality, I'll get my confidence back.
Thanks again for all of your excellent comments and help.
Katy
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Post by Mary on Apr 14, 2016 21:53:11 GMT
I am sure some don't realize they are avoidant, just as some people who are selfish (or fill in any trait) don't realize it. I think it's human nature that we don't always see ourselves clearly. I am not sure it's an inherently avoidant trait.
Deactivating strategies are like knee jerk responses. Most times I don't have a feeling about it, it's just "I don't like this, I have to get away". So no I wouldn't feel uncomfortable or think to say that. I would say I don't want to go on the trip. If asked why, I would say because I don't want to. Yes, it's confusing and most people say I am direct and cold, but I don't lie or demean. I do try to explain it, but most people still don't really understand. I can see why some people would use false excuses though, because it's a much easier/faster way to "get away" without a lot of questions. It's all about the "getaway".
I don't believe that I have to find the perfect partner. Everyone has flaws. I believe I need to find the perfect partner for me, which is someone who will be extremely patient, understanding and willing to move at a pace I can manage. It's a very special person.
But I only know myself and I have done a lot of work to figure out why I am the way I am. Just a little background about me. I spent the first 3 years in an orphanage and had little to no attachments early in life and had adoptive parents that were on the abusive side. I have no attachment to them. I have some friends that accept me the way I am and a partner that is very patient. I hope this helps.
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raco
Junior Member
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Post by raco on Apr 14, 2016 23:43:37 GMT
An article on Jeb's blog: Avoidant: emotions repressed beneath conscious level. It may be harder to see ourselves clearly when the brain completely blocks -physiologically- our emotions. Some avoidants who should feel sadness will instead feel some headache, for example. Not because they are naive, not because they lack knowledge in psychology and can't understand what is happening, but because the emotion of sadness does not exist at all at the conscious level. Because their brain is repressing it. Because of a mechanism that their brain created during their childhood, in order to survive emotionally to a traumatic childhood. I guess that not all avoidants have this mechanism in their brain. But their behavior is something that they created unconsciously because they really needed it to survive. " My parents don't take good care of me? Fine, I don't need them, I don't need anyone." It is not true. A baby does need a good caregiver. But in some cases, he has to believe that he does not. He has to train himself, unconsciously, to think that an obviously false fact is true. And that's one of the first things he does in his life to build his personality. That could explain why it is so hard for them to realize that they are avoidants. Can selfishness, or other traits, have the same kind of explanation? Does it lead to a conflict in one's mind (like the approach/avoid conflict of the avoidant)? Does it have such an impact on the whole life of the selfish person? It's not clear to me that avoidance and selfishness are just two traits among many others.
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Post by Mary on Apr 15, 2016 4:08:12 GMT
It's true that emotions are repressed beneath the conscious level. However logic and common sense are not. In listening to people talk about emotions, I realized that I didn't have the same experience and I thought about why people think I am so cold. When you have so many broken/ short term relationships, one has to wonder why. I put the pieces together through logic, not emotion.
True, I don't think I need people to take care of me. I rely on myself. However, I learned over time by seeing other relationships that people can and do rely on each other. It hasn't broken my own self reliance, but I realize my fierce independence is not the "norm".
I think there are many traits that can conflict in one's mind. I would also say being avoidant doesn't have such an impact on my whole life, just close relationships, which are not all there is to life.
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raco
Junior Member
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Post by raco on Apr 15, 2016 16:02:31 GMT
It is very interesting to have your point of view, Mary. Thank you. I wish the avoidants I have dealt with were as self-aware as you.
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Post by Gr8Dreams on May 17, 2016 16:17:30 GMT
I am fascinated by this discussion. I grew up in a very abusive home with a depressed, self-absorbed mother, a distant, narcissistic father and a mentally ill and violent brother. I was a continuous runaway and eventually was taken out of my home by social services and placed in a large juvenile institution. I became an emancipated minor at 17. All of my life I've had to fend for myself and have not really trusted others, though I really wanted to. I've always felt an immense longing for connection and friendship, but closeness inevitably makes me uncomfortable and I push people away. When I push people away I'm sometimes not very nice about it, because often I'm desperate to get away. In my case I think that all of this is a reaction to spending so many years trapped and powerless. You would not know this about me if you met me casually. I'm friendly, kind and considerate. I really do like people, but I think I'm a textbook avoidant.
Much of my life I've attracted narcissistic men, who have ripped me to shreds emotionally and eventually rejected me coldly. Twenty years ago I decided to give a relationship a chance with a man who seemed the opposite of all the men I had dated in the past - safe, even-tempered, mild mannered. Boring, I thought at first. But no. Turns out it was the best decision of my life. Also turns out that he is a bit of a dismissive - he was raised by very narcissistic, high achieving parents who were cold and rather cruel to him. I need a lot of space in a relationship, a lot of quiet. He gives me that. We are both quietly supportive of one another and the relationship has brought out the best in both of us. We get distance, but we get closeness. This solid bond has made it much easier for me to deal with the rest of the world.
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Post by Mary on May 18, 2016 17:48:50 GMT
Gr8Dreams, I am so happy to hear you found a life partner and it makes your world better. It has been difficult for me as an avoidant to find that person, but it makes a huge difference when you do find a match that helps you manage the balance.
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Post by Lucy on Jun 2, 2016 10:52:45 GMT
I am in a long term relationship with a very sel aware avoidant, who exhibited avoidant traits early on. Many of them have been mentioned above. He also has narcissistic tendencies, for example he has a large harem (men, mostly women, professional status are all sources of narc supply). With regards to the original posting about recognising avoidants, his narcissistic traits confused me as he is very helpful and everyone's friend, until I discovered the term 'covert narcissism'. He has to be accepted and not disappoint people as he is always on red alert for any perceived criticism. He also compartmentalises his life to the extreme. There are female and male friends who I am not allowed to meet (he tells me if he has coffee or is texted by them) and I am a secret. He says this is because he is excessively private about personal relationships (it's true this behaviour is not confined to me) but after a good number of years this is beginning to worry me.
On the other hand, he is very caring, generous, wise and supportive and tries his best. He is continually working on himself, and has improved immensely, but is always banging against his personal boundaries. I have read articles where other avoidants are doing this, and I worry about it, because he puts himself under pressure, but also because of the guilt that I carry. He does it because he wants us to work. But the traits are always there, bubbling under the surface. I have chosen to navigate round them and to accept them and him. But I wouldn't blame anyone who chooses to take the alternative option, because that can also take guts.
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Post by Jaeger on Jun 2, 2016 21:38:08 GMT
All I can add is this question : Will living like this, with this person, make you truly happy in the long run? Consider the length of time you could potentially stay together and the costs and benefits for you personally in the relationship. If yes, and you think it adds value to your life, holding on to it would seem the better choice.
In my own case, walking on eggshells for years took a toll on me and I am finding out more and more how in constantly putting the other person first I lost a part of myself. Now that I have some distance and have returned more to the core of who I really am, I am much happier for it.
I wish you wisdom in the choice ahead of you.
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