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Post by seeking on Sept 23, 2023 14:09:42 GMT
I will go back and read my original post. I keep coming back to this.
I'd really love some input. This is just a constellation of behaviors -- and of course are on my end (not hers) so through my lens. But these are the relationships that make me wonder a) if they are possible to ever heal b) make me feel AP c) are where I need to focus my healing right now, so input welcome.
I hate to just reduce my sister to a list of behaviors, but clearly I understand she is more than that, people are complex, and this may be out of context. But again, I'd love the thoughts and wisdom of folks here to help me wrestle with this as these are often trademarks of relationships I've been in and am currently trying to navigate.
-- one sided - she will share with me about her kids, marriage, health, troubles (not every day but frequently); if I talk, she has to go, gets distracted, minimizes it, dismisses (i.e., doesn't have compassion)
-- feels like she doesn't *see* me - though she does, but conversations don't take me into consideration - i.e., complained the other day about how she has to work (4 hours at a pre-school - and for the first time in 15 years - so that she can "have her own money" - meanwhile I work every day as a single parent, and struggle
-- stays focused on surface stuff. tells me how I should do my kids hair, maybe trim the eyebrows, buys her clothes - so she can "look her best" but no input or help with the fact that she has autism, no dad, struggles socially, etc.
-- recently had a convo about how a teacher of mine said that you know you're healing when you can have friends, seeing people as doing the best they can v doing something to us -- (the context was that my father majorly lied to me about something to my face, and she was like - how were you calm about that? and I said b/c I think I've been healing - I didn't react). She claims that is how she is with everyone - like, oh, duh- -that's obvious. Clearly here there's a "hall of mirrors" b/c I'm not really that way with her - and she certainly isn't that way with me! Or her husband. But she sees herself as very forgiving, understanding, compassionate. So interesting!
-- to me she claims she does the above (seeing people as doing the best they can) but seems to normalize abuse, which has been one of the most profoundly confusing aspects of our relationship - mainly b/c when I was in what I think was a pretty abusive (mostly psychological/emotional) relationship that was very confusing to me, she always defended him, sided with him, understood him and his motives "guys are like this, guys are like that." She does this now with a good friend of hers (who is her only friend) and complains all the time about how she complains about "poor E" (the woman's husband). Yet my sister HATES her own husband.
-- My dad was also violent when we were little but she "doesn't remember" - and even today when my dad is abusive toward my mom she really doesn't see it that way? She has compassion for him and something is wrong with me (I'm sensitive, etc)
-- Same with Catholic school. I was hit, kids were pushed down aisles. I was called a prostitute. She knows someone at her church who has a similar Catholic upbringing trauma and my sister acts like it's us. I said, You were there. And she just shrugs it off and is planning to send her kids to Catholic high school. She seems even proud of our school and nope, she doesn't remember it that way.
-- says 90% of women are "annoying" so doesn't have friends.
-- At the very least feels emotionally unavailable.
I think my biggest issue is that I don't have a "big picture" of my sister. I have a lot of little paper cuts. I used to be able to distance more, but it's not really realistic. And I'm tired of that pattern. I'm trying to sort of stay middle of the road and have communication with her since our parents are older and we need to communicate or we do holidays together, etc.
Yet, she's in this thing now where she calls me with an excuse (like a recent procedure my mom had) but then will go on about stuff happening with her and I don't really have space for it. I would make space for it if the relationship felt like a two-way street, so I just listen and then get off the phone as quickly as possible and don't engage. I don't feel good about this b/c mostly I am just rolling my eyes -- yet if I were to say something to her, she's not open to that - ie. constructive feedback.
I think it would help to hear feedback. I think there's a part of me that wants to "keep trying," and needs to hear it's pointless. Or know what could change or how I will know. But for right now, I think my sister is confusing, possibly avoidant (or maybe very avoidant), emotionally unavailable and the rest I can't explain. No idea honestly.
My sister already sees herself as someone who doesn't have a lot of problems, likes to "keep things light," doesn't have anxiety about anything, has compassion for people - and yet has never done therapy. I think she went 2 times? And then got mad b/c her husband was the one who needed it, apparently. I, on the other hand, have done therapy since I could first drive (drove myself to a therapist and used my parents insurance, no one talked about it) and have been every since (so most of my life). It's pretty confusing.
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Post by seeking on Sept 23, 2023 14:38:57 GMT
More thoughts
- this list about my sister doesn't in any way make me perfect; in fact, I think I have a habit of talking all the responsibility (which I'm trying to break)
- I want to do right by myself as I heal from difficult relationships and try to "earn secure"
- I think one of the biggest places I hold on to things is that she doesn't see me - she has no idea what it's like to live my life. She doesn't want to know. Her husband does 95% of the work - financial, child rearing, etc. My sister has washed her hands of all the hard stuff. I feel like all I do all day is hard stuff. So we can't relate. I have tried to overlook that in my relationship with her and often I can. But her whole "I've always seen people as doing their best," and how she sees herself as not really needing therapy or having anxiety, etc. The thing is, if her husband wasn't in the picture keeping their lives together and her life together, she'd be a wreck. She's told me to my face she can live without him. "I'd miss him, sure, but I'd be fine." Maybe she would financially b/c she'd have a lot of money coming to her in the dissolution of their marriage - but she has no idea what it's like to not have a dad in the picture, not have help, have to raise a kid alone with special needs, have to work to pay your bills (money doesn't come from magical places) -- she won't admit she needs him. Maybe she doesn't! Maybe I'm wrong, but she'll never know as long as she stays with him. So it's this false sense of her being perfectly okay and yet no acknowledgement of her husband. She brags about how she'd be fine without him. It's immature and ridiculous to me. And I lose respect for her over this. But it's the elephant in the room - nothing to do or say about it.
And yet she holds me to judgement - why don't you have money? (Who would even ask that?) I thought you had a lot of clients. She'll see it as some fault of mine.
At her house last week for dinner, she went on about this woman who "Poor thing is alone all day because her husband is a neurosurgeon." -- ? I really don't want "poor thing" directed at me, but how is it she can see this woman in her "need" (yes, poor thing - she lives in a million dollar home) and not anyone else around her??? And must have said, "Her husband is a neurosurgeon" 52 times in front of everyone - and look at her little girl - look at this video. I could see my brother in law becoming more angered with each moment. He doesn't show anger, but then she turned to him and said, "He was the one who diagnosed, blah blah blah" and my BIL was like, "Oh really?" It makes me sad that she has all of us in front of her and instead of connecting with US - her children, husband, mother, sister, niece - she has to go on and on about how great other people are, and pity them? It's my dad to a "T" - he's always done this. And it feels awful.
But again, do you say something? Do something? I don't even know the motivation behind this behavior. Prob not stuff she's even aware of.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 14:10:25 GMT
You're not responsible for her level of self awareness and it doesn't matter that much, really. You are responsible for your own self awareness including communicating your emotions and needs in a relationship.
It's funny, in toxic families everyone avoids confrontation except the person who is most offensive, they just spew stupid things and everyone just lets it spray all over them.
Why? Because we are conditioned in early life to protect the original offenders, mom and pop, I guess.
I am practicing this kind of stuff:
I feel (X emotion) when you (behavior).
What I would like is (x behavior) because it's important to me to feel or have (x feeling or result).
It doesn't psychoanalyze the other and assess their motivations, that is not your concern, it's theirs. All you're doing is communicating and making a request.
Of course, the other's response or reaction determines what comes next. But as I've mentioned in another post, my position is that I am responsible for the quality of my relationships, full stop. I am not a hapless victim of other confusing or confused people. If I am uncomfortable I am responsible for addressing that, and if a relationship ends or becomes *edgy because I stop going along to get along, so be it! If I upset the apple cart by simply communicating my feelings and needs, it is what it is. Nobody died, everyone will survive. If the stability (and I don't mean health, or satisfaction I mean status quo) in a relationship depends upon my avoidance of conflict or my ability to put up and shut up, the problem is actually in me, the person whose well being I am responsible for when there isn't agreement about what is right and good for me.
I am very direct much of the time, and able to communicate well with people more on the outer circles. It becomes more difficult the closer someone is to me, but I can do it. I'm a work in progress. It takes a period of discomfort for me to be able to understand what I need sometimes, I have kind of a delayed reaction at times. I'm not hard on myself about thst because it's an indication that I'm sensitive and aware these days instead of drifting along obtuse and disconnected.
At any rate, its odd from an outside perspective to think of no one being able to approach discomfortwith her, it wouldn't even need to be confrontational or harsh. I get that it opens up a can of worms when you address something with a difficult personality, but the other option is to just get crap sprayed at you, and it's really not worth it to let that happen. At least not for me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 20:09:36 GMT
Admittedly, I myself find it very unnatural to actually express an emotion, give name to it, when I communicate in this format. Its very awkward for me to make an emotional argument much of the time, because it hasn't been *conscious* awareness of emotion that drives my interaction and responses. So it's been a real effort to actually name a feeling and consider it a valid reason for making an ask. My lifelong habit is to simplify it to some version of "Yeah,I'm not down for that." Without really fully exploring why, let alone articulating it.
And, sometimes I still think that feelings aren't always necessary, it totally depends on the context and relationship. There are instances where it's just about a preference or a boundary and I don't naturally go into the why.
So obviously I'm still working on it, not clear on all of it yet 🙃
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Post by cherrycola on Sept 24, 2023 21:33:47 GMT
From my perspective you seem stuck on wanting her to see you and hear you. You are screaming pay attention to me. Love me. At the same time themes of jealousy are coming across. She doesn't know how hard your life is and she has it so easy.
These are all valid feelings but to @introverttemporary point you can only handle your side of the street. So greiving the loss of the relationship you want will be part of your work here.
It's very sad when we accept our family can't be who we want them to be. That isn't saying that this relationship will never be, but right now it just isn't working for you. So all you can do is try to communicate the parts that aren't working and then use that information to set boundaries.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 22:31:53 GMT
A step back from being seen is just being, and knowing that is enough. Witnessing and validating yourself. The anxious cup can never be filled, which is a dilemma that is foreign to me. I think this is where self soothing comes in. Unfortunately for most of my life that has entailed numbing. But the inner child work has been transformational. Also, working with my inner teenager,and inner invisible woman.
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Post by seeking on Sept 25, 2023 17:50:22 GMT
Before I read other responses, I was going to respond to @introvert's response. Just to say thanks for that feedback.
I will admit, I have younger "parts," going -oh, that's how you would do it? And so you also see my sister as harsh, I'm not alone.
And also to mention that I had therapy today (only 2x a month) and processed this and came out with that I have very neurodivergent parts that are confused a lot of the time and I'm making space for them... both the neurodivergence and the confusion. And also the bypassing (Masking maybe) that I regularly do and will start learning how to better advocate for myself. I shared a little of how my sister reacts to my confusion or neurodivergence and my therapist said it was a 'microaggression" - we talked a lot about stuff and it was helpful.
I think my new approach is to tread carefully with sister. To start to speak up more for myself. And my parts. I doubt that will go well and I don't even know if it feels entirely possible for me, but it's an area of potential for a lot of growth, change, healing.
And just to add that I really love that my therapist invited my confused parts to have space both in my system and in our sessions. It feels like such a relief. You guys have all dealt with my confused parts! Esp around the long-distance/internet only guy that I went on and on about forever. Who knows, maybe being "confused" is some form of protecting or coping strategy or way of staying away from "really knowing" the truth for myself.
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Post by seeking on Sept 25, 2023 18:12:37 GMT
The anxious cup can never be filled, which is a dilemma that is foreign to me. I t Can you say more what you mean by this? An example? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2023 18:21:54 GMT
 The anxious cup can never be filled, which is a dilemma that is foreign to me. I t Can you say more what you mean by this? An example? I'm just sending cherrycola 's post about wanting to be seen and validated. I do see that a lot in your posts, and I can understand it but it's a persistent theme. I don't experience it so much as an avoidant (or at least prior to becoming more emotionally connected ) because my MO was to remain in hiding. I also wonder if you seek validation or understanding from others because of your own confusion and uncertainty about your inner experience? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2023 18:24:00 GMT
Also I'd say your sister seems a bit brash and thoughtless but that says something about her, not anyone she interacts with. I've learned not to take others bad behavior personally although I do have a preference for what i want to be around and what I don't, which I handle internally or externally as I deem appropriate.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2023 18:27:39 GMT
Another trick is to visualize people's words just moving right past you without getting caught in your hair. You just let them slide right by, and be gone. You don't need to touch or hold on to them, it's just pollution sometimes. Don't breathe it in.
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Post by seeking on Sept 25, 2023 22:25:06 GMT
I'm just sending cherrycola 's post about wanting to be seen and validated. I do see that a lot in your posts, and I can understand it but it's a persistent theme. I don't experience it so much as an avoidant (or at least prior to becoming more emotionally connected ) because my MO was to remain in hiding. I also wonder if you seek validation or understanding from others because of your own confusion and uncertainty about your inner experience? Well Usernametaken said: "From my perspective you seem stuck on wanting her to see you and hear you." And I didn't respond to this earlier, but my thought was, "yes," and -- isn't that a normal part of healthy interaction? Is being stuck on that something insecure or not healthy? It seems my pattern or "persistent theme" is going to people to get something they can't give. More than my want (of being seeing and heard) being the problem. So I guess that is my neurodivergent mind's questions for the day. Is the problem my wanting to be seen and heard? Or is that unusual in some way? Or that I go to the wrong people or that I don't know how to fill the need. Or all of that. But yes it's a HUGE craving. And part of it could be my fault if I'm masking and hiding anyway. This is potentially a big topic but just want to be sure I'm clear on this part. |
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Post by seeking on Sept 25, 2023 23:53:00 GMT
Also I'd say your sister seems a bit brash and thoughtless but that says something about her, not anyone she interacts with. I've learned not to take others bad behavior personally although I do have a preference for what i want to be around and what I don't, which I handle internally or externally as I deem appropriate. I agree - and with your other post. And I do this; I think it's just that my sister is triggering "stuff," that I'm trying to look at. I.e., someone can say all the stuff she says to me and ignore it, but if it "catches" it's usually because there is something unhealed in me. In IFS, a "burden" And what it looks like is that I did a good job for a long time hiding the more odd-ball, awkward, quirky, neurodivergent parts of me and it's not working to continue doing that. I've had to hide a lot of myself. And the first way this presented was feeling the pain over not connecting with my sister. And then how she feels rejecting of me, and then me realizing, I'm rejecting big parts of myself. So it went like that.... But I was stuck (even as I wrote this post just a couple days ago) on "Is it her or me?" (The confusion) Its been painful for years because I left a relationship to come back to the States to get on the "do all the right things" track like she did (marry, house in suburbs, 2.2 kids, etc) I left MY OWN PATH that was authentic to me. No fault of hers. And it didn't work out for me. Not even close (I have a beautiful daughter and I learned a lot - so that's huge). But she still very much adheres to THE PATH and raises her kids that way and has all these rules. And I don't fit. I never did. She even walked out of the room when I told her I was pregnant (with my family present and my boyfriend) because I wasn't married. It was never stated, but I was an embarrassment to her. And its still painful. But only I guess to the extent that I've exiled so much of myself for so long to be .... not who I am. To fit in, get love, have connection, be seen as this or that or NOT that. And it's not really working for me. But my sister is still kind of a reminder of how I failed at being normal and having cute outfits and being lighthearted and inviting people over for a nice spread of food from local organic places (these are the things she praises). And all that is painful, but what does it matter if it's not really who I am anyway? So while her behavior totally sucks at times, I think the reason I'm getting so triggered is because I never really processed the moment that my path diverged so that I could come back to the States and check off all the boxes. My boxes still aren't checked. And sometimes it's just the pain of her telling me her 5th grader got the role an 8th grader would get in the school play and that she "must be a natural," when my own daughter who absolutely loves theatre and wants to do it for a living, struggles because of her auditory processing, social anxiety, sensory issues, etc. Which, again, is no fault of my sister. Just my own pain and burdens that I have to make peace with. That's kind of what I'm arriving at through this exploration. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2023 1:47:53 GMT
I'm just sending cherrycola 's post about wanting to be seen and validated. I do see that a lot in your posts, and I can understand it but it's a persistent theme. I don't experience it so much as an avoidant (or at least prior to becoming more emotionally connected ) because my MO was to remain in hiding. I also wonder if you seek validation or understanding from others because of your own confusion and uncertainty about your inner experience? Well Usernametaken said: "From my perspective you seem stuck on wanting her to see you and hear you." And I didn't respond to this earlier, but my thought was, "yes," and -- isn't that a normal part of healthy interaction? Is being stuck on that something insecure or not healthy? It seems my pattern or "persistent theme" is going to people to get something they can't give. More than my want (of being seeing and heard) being the problem. So I guess that is my neurodivergent mind's questions for the day. Is the problem my wanting to be seen and heard? Or is that unusual in some way? Or that I go to the wrong people or that I don't know how to fill the need. Or all of that. But yes it's a HUGE craving. And part of it could be my fault if I'm masking and hiding anyway. This is potentially a big topic but just want to be sure I'm clear on this part. My perspective is that 1)its healthy to want to be understood and receive support from intimate relationships, including partner, friends, siblings, etc. The people that you cultivate close relationships with But It's unhealthy and even unreasonable to expect that from someone who doesn't have the capacity to meet those needs for whatever reason. You may want it, but it becomes your problem if you can't accept their limitations, grieve or process however you need to, and let go of your expectations. Nobody is obliged to meet your emotional needs, and I think you understand that. Everyone has their own path to get to emotional health, or not. Your sister grew up in the same family that left you needing therapy. She didn't get it. That's her business. She owes you nothing. If you cannot accept her, then it's your issue. You seem to spend a lot of time wrestling with emotionally unavailable people. Its not that your needs aren't valid,but you seek to get them met or experience frustration with people who demonstrate an incapacity to meet you where you want to be met. That's where I see your unhealthy habit, being stuck in emotional pain with people who clearly can't be what you want them to be for you. Also, you seem to compare your life to others and carry negative emotions about the differences in circumstance and perception. |
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Post by seeking on Sept 26, 2023 14:25:44 GMT
My perspective is that 1)its healthy to want to be understood and receive support from intimate relationships, including partner, friends, siblings, etc. The people that you cultivate close relationships with But It's unhealthy and even unreasonable to expect that from someone who doesn't have the capacity to meet those needs for whatever reason. You may want it, but it becomes your problem if you can't accept their limitations, grieve or process however you need to, and let go of your expectations. Nobody is obliged to meet your emotional needs, and I think you understand that. Everyone has their own path to get to emotional health, or not. Your sister grew up in the same family that left you needing therapy. She didn't get it. That's her business. She owes you nothing. If you cannot accept her, then it's your issue. Thanks. I've only recently done this with both parents. Which is a miracle in itself. I guess I still have my sister to work on. Yet, I think I was there with her, but she's the one reaching out to me. Calling me. Telling me things, and I think that's what's been triggering. The way that I'm seemingly able to maintain the state of acceptance is if people don't ask me for stuff. When they put more demands on me but are not able to give, I go into a rage (not always, but sometimes). I think some family members largely use me to regulate. My dad will call to talk but not ask how I am or if I say two words, there's no space for it. My sister is becoming the same. But if I give feedback like "Your anxiety is driving--" she's like "I don't have anxiety!" I do hold a lot of resentment toward her that I'm now setting about trying to heal - i.e., my own hurt parts and witnessing them and spending time, money, energy in therapy. That's more than anyone in my family can say about me. Or each other. But I'm doing it for me, not for her. Anyway.... |
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