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Post by yasmin on Dec 29, 2017 14:10:03 GMT
I spent the day /night with my FA ex yesterday and I just want some help with getting a bit of understanding of things instead of making assumptions and getting all angry like I usually do! Anxious and avoidant perspectives would probably be great as I think some of this is a mix of both.
We basically agreed to spend the day together as friends, at his request, but he was not acting anything like a friend. There was pretty much constant touching, constant hand holding, stroking my hair, constant PDA and his hand was either in the small of my back or protectively on the back on my neck the entire time. The activity also wasn't really very "friend" like and it was very date-orientated. At the end of the day he went home and then decided he wanted to see me again so drove an hour over to my place, watched movies and ate dinner with me and basically sat there all night constantly cuddled, kissing and completely all over each other. All of this was instigated by him after saying he wanted to be "just friends".
There's no sex involved, but obviously this is a romantic relationship and not a platonic one, and I find the ambiguity puts me in a position of potentially being hurt and I don't want that. The label isn't important to me, but for example if he says we are "just friends" and then spends the day and night acting like I am his girlfriend and then goes on a date with someone else the next day then you can see how this quickly becomes an undesirable outcome for me and as much as I like him and care about him, I also like and care about myself too.
So really, I think if he wants to kiss me / touch me / date me then he has to actually date me. If he wants to be "just friends" then there is absolutely no touching allowed, no romantic behavior and the dynamic of our relationship has to change completely. Can I get any advice on how to communicate this to him without triggering or it being perceived as an ultimatum? It isn't an ultimatum - it's just that I can't put myself in such a bad position because it's unhealthy for me to feel like I am being taken for granted like that.
I asked on the forums previously a few times about some of his words, trying to decipher what he had meant when he said it was "too intense" or that I was "too intense" because I honestly have not done any chasing or behavior along those lines and it's always been him chasing after me. We did manage to actually talk about that and he said that basically he felt that I had outright told him that I liked him and wanted a relationship with him, and for him this was "intense". So that makes sense now...it wasn't intense behavior or emotional outbursts that made him feel like running away, but me simply asking him if we could give things a try. For him that overt question was intense, and with hindsight I can understand that!
I explained that I hadn't intended pressure, but was only being open and unguarded and he said he really likes that about me and that he loves how confident and open and honest I am, but that he felt on some psychological level me telling him that I liked him was actually a turn off and drove him away.
We talked about that a bit more and he says he thinks maybe he feels attraction for people when they reject him and that he runs if they return his interest. He elaborated on that by saying a few weeks ago he had a few dates with a woman who was very rejecting of him - not affectionate, didn't return messages and just generally didn't like him and he said he felt consumed with anxiety over her not responding to him and was desperate to hear from her. He said that then after a few days of feeling sick with anxiety he realised he didn't actually really like her, had no physical desire for her, didn't feel happy when he was with her so he broke it off but that it made him aware that the rejection feeling was somehow something that drove him to want to chase.
So he said that he really likes me, really loves being with me, really finds me very attractive but what I DON'T do is trigger this anxiety of rejection in him by playing "hard to get" and that he thinks maybe this is why he hasn't jumped into a relationship with me. I think what he was describing here was his desire for push and pull cycle? It was good he was so self-aware and even though it was hard to hear his desperation over this other woman he was also pretty clear that it had nothing to do with his feelings for her but more for being driven by this come-here-go-away thing.
Is this basically avoidant behavior here? Or anxious? Whatever it is it seems a bit "abnormal" on some level to me to reject one women you really like in favour of one you don't like just because the latter is rejecting you. A healthy relationship surely starts with both people actually liking each other?
We continued this conversation a little more and he seemed aware of it being a bit screwed up and then he said, "I wouldn't be at all surprised if you move on and then I realise I made the biggest mistake of my life when it's too late". I feel pretty much also like this is exactly what is going to happen because he's setting it up to be the case.
So overall, I had such a great time with him yesterday and I am grateful for the conversation but I also feel now like it might be a bit hopeless? If I continue to allow him to devalue me just based off the fact that I am secure / don't play games then I am not sure that helps either one of us, does it?
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 29, 2017 15:01:43 GMT
Hey Yasmin.....honestly...he sounds like he is vascillating between AP and DA tendencies and that would make sense....he wants a relationship but is afraid of intimacy.
So what I am reading is that he really likes you...you are likely a pivotal person in his life and he feels that he can "explore" with you what feels dangerous/scary with others. But he is also aware that his inability to commit to a relationship with you will likely lead to you moving on and finding someone else....and that is why he is saying he might be making the biggest mistake in his life (same thing happened when my ex broke up with me...he told me I was perfect in so many ways and he might be making the biggest mistake of his life by breaking up with me). Basically, he doesn't want to lose what you have now but he cannot commit to anything else. The problem is that it is all about his needs. He is not stepping forward and saying "Hey, I am really comfortable with you and what I want to do with you would technically be a relationship.....however, I am at this point unable to give that to you so we should agree on the boundaries of our friendship." which leaves that talk to you.
I would first state to him that you really enjoyed your time with him and value his friendship and that he matters to you as a person, however because you are not dating, the physical signs of affection need to be toned back significantly (you state what is acceptable for you).
I think if you go about it that way, he should understand that you aren't saying it is due to him...but due to the nature of your friendship that you are making this request.
I really appreciate how thoughtful you are being about this. Good luck.
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Post by yasmin on Dec 29, 2017 15:22:23 GMT
Thank you...thats a great answer.
I just sent him a message saying that I really wanted him to be in my life but that the physical touching and sweet talk was crossing a boundary out of friendship and instead of making demands or laying out the law I just said "please can we work together on this so we don't end up hurting me?" And he replied "Yes. We can do it".
I am sure he knows it has to stop!!
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Post by Jaeger on Dec 29, 2017 16:09:33 GMT
Thank you...thats a great answer. I just sent him a message saying that I really wanted him to be in my life but that the physical touching and sweet talk was crossing a boundary out of friendship and instead of making demands or laying out the law I just said "please can we work together on this so we don't end up hurting me?" And he replied "Yes. We can do it". I am sure he knows it has to stop!! 2 things come to mind as I read this. The first is to read the article I linked to in tha AP forum on why it's so hard to let go of a relationship. After that, the second is to give some thought as to the possibility that "Yes. We can do it" is behaviour aimed at keeping you hooked. Personally, I am far from convinced of your statement that 'he knows it has to stop!' |
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Post by yasmin on Dec 29, 2017 16:40:23 GMT
Absolutely agree about the intermittent reinforcement. It's very tough!
As for the second thing...... I'd hate to think he was deliberately manipulating me. I'll take it on board and think it over. My gut tells me he actually does want to be friends so my main confusion is really why he keeps trying for more
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damascena
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pregnant, alone and deceived.
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Post by damascena on Dec 29, 2017 17:16:59 GMT
Yasmin, what are you actually getting from this friendship/relationship? Which of your needs are being met?
My Avoidant bf tried something similar in that at one point he said we should just be friends, and his idea of friendship seemed to include physical touch from what I could gather. I told him straight up that I would find a friendship with him too messy and that I wanted a relationship or nothing. He went away to think about it for a few days and then came back ready for a relationship and has dropped all this "friendship" nonsense. He just said, "but we're not getting married yet." And I said, "that's fine."
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 29, 2017 17:17:37 GMT
Absolutely agree about the intermittent reinforcement. It's very tough! As for the second thing...... I'd hate to think he was deliberately manipulating me. I'll take it on board and think it over. My gut tells me he actually does want to be friends so my main confusion is really why he keeps trying for more Having been in his shoes, I do not believe he is trying to deliberately manipulate you as a sort of machiavellic game. I do think though, that he his trying to do the best he can think of to keep you in his life on one hand and not loose his perception of freedom on the other hand. It is difficult to decide what to do, if you stay by his side you'll probably suffer more, if you leave he'll suffer but you'll get better. You should decide based on how much you know yourself and how resilient you are to heartbreaks. For some people, investing time and energy on an FA may seem exciting and motivating, for other it may be exhausting and draining. Hey comeheregoaway..thank you for this...I have a different situation. I am starting to think my ex is an FA who did not get to show his AP side because I am an AP. He wants to remain friends and I don't want to abandon him because I truly care and love him..but my feelings for him are greater than his feelings for me. I am not sure how to walk this tightrope. Any thoughts? |
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Post by serene13 on Dec 29, 2017 17:33:53 GMT
Yasmin - one of the things I remember most about the FA/DA I knew was the intensity of physical touching and affection. Whenever we were together anywhere he had to touch me in some way, lots of eye contact, lots of affection. It seems like its a constant for him - I've seen him since on a few 'first dates' with women where he tries to connect quickly in ways that would be unusual for the average person. It surprised me. Usually the day after he would retreat. I also noticed that if I seemed to pull away he would definitely respond with some concern, but if I said anything about how I felt about him it would over time freak him out. I find all of this pretty interesting from an intellectual level, but when I was involved I felt like I was losing my mind  . |
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Post by Jaeger on Dec 29, 2017 17:52:18 GMT
Having been in his shoes, I do not believe he is trying to deliberately manipulate you as a sort of machiavellic game. I do think though, that he his trying to do the best he can think of to keep you in his life on one hand and not loose his perception of freedom on the other hand. It is difficult to decide what to do, if you stay by his side you'll probably suffer more, if you leave he'll suffer but you'll get better. You should decide based on how much you know yourself and how resilient you are to heartbreaks. For some people, investing time and energy on an FA may seem exciting and motivating, for other it may be exhausting and draining. Hey comeheregoaway..thank you for this...I have a different situation. I am starting to think my ex is an FA who did not get to show his AP side because I am an AP. He wants to remain friends and I don't want to abandon him because I truly care and love him..but my feelings for him are greater than his feelings for me. I am not sure how to walk this tightrope. Any thoughts? Nobody can tell you what you should do, since your thoughts and feelings are your own. Only you can decide what is best for you. Speaking from my own situation however, the crux is this: This would lead me to 2 possibilities: either this means they see not adequately meeting my needs as a problem and put in effort to respond reliably to my needs (as I do with them) and I will give it a good go, or they don't and I walk. Talking about changing won't make any difference in the end. Actions speak louder than words. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 18:27:53 GMT
Yasmin, I don't know what his attachment style would be, but it seems like he's mixing the anxiety feelings for attraction. When I was younger, we would call these guys players. It was just the thrill of the chase they were interested in. In my 20s, I "dated" quite a few, because for me, it was just easy. There was no push/pull cycle. I could do whatever I wanted and they still chased. They always seemed anxious to me, but the literature would probably say they are avoidant (avoiding commitment). I hesitate to call them avoidant, because the anxiety kicked in before we even knew each other and therefore before any kind of "closeness". Now, many of these guys are actually settled and married, so perhaps they were just immature (we all were).
Making your boundaries clear is healthy and it's not an ultimatum. Unfortunately, changing boundaries mid "relationship"is much more difficult.
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Post by yasmin on Dec 29, 2017 18:52:52 GMT
Absolutely agree about the intermittent reinforcement. It's very tough! As for the second thing...... I'd hate to think he was deliberately manipulating me. I'll take it on board and think it over. My gut tells me he actually does want to be friends so my main confusion is really why he keeps trying for more Having been in his shoes, I do not believe he is trying to deliberately manipulate you as a sort of machiavellic game. I do think though, that he his trying to do the best he can think of to keep you in his life on one hand and not loose his perception of freedom on the other hand. It is difficult to decide what to do, if you stay by his side you'll probably suffer more, if you leave he'll suffer but you'll get better. You should decide based on how much you know yourself and how resilient you are to heartbreaks. For some people, investing time and energy on an FA may seem exciting and motivating, for other it may be exhausting and draining. Thanks so much comeheregoaway, I also honestly don't think he'd deliberately hurt me or mess me around. As you say you've been in his shoes could you maybe tell me a bit more about that and give me some insight about what's going on? I struggle a little bit with why he doesn't just give it a try and see what happens. It's not exciting or notivating me me, but it's also not exhausting or draining. I can remain fairly detached most of the time but I think if he's dating other people while play acting I am his girlfriend then I am going to find that not ok. |
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Post by yasmin on Dec 29, 2017 19:08:11 GMT
Yasmin, what are you actually getting from this friendship/relationship? Which of your needs are being met? My Avoidant bf tried something similar in that at one point he said we should just be friends, and his idea of friendship seemed to include physical touch from what I could gather. I told him straight up that I would find a friendship with him too messy and that I wanted a relationship or nothing. He went away to think about it for a few days and then came back ready for a relationship and has dropped all this "friendship" nonsense. He just said, "but we're not getting married yet." And I said, "that's fine." Hi Damascena. Ha ha, that's probably what he'd do if I said that but to be honest I am uncomfortable forcing him into a relationship even if it's done subtly because I want him to choose this for himself and also to feel safe and stable. I might just give it one more shot of hanging out together and if he starts trying to kiss and cuddle me then maybe it's time to say friendship is not going to work and try it out your way. Frankly, it is just total nonsense! I am okay with not touching him and keeping things platonic but he is literally all over me all the time. If two people watched us in the street they'd probably say "aww, that's so sweet" and really no one would believe we weren't lovebirds. It's not even so much sexual as it is just deeply romantic which is kind of worse because it's more emotionally intimate if that makes sense. Although it does get sexual so there's nothing missing there  I've dated so many men in my life and this one is up there in the top 3 most affectionate, most loving to me, most full of PDA and the other two I was either engaged to or married to! As for what I get out of it, that's a very good question. It took me so long to get to know this guy because the image he puts across is really nothing like who he really is and when it started to unravel. I didn't like him at first -he's not really my type physically, he's maybe a bit nerdy, he came across as cold and arrogant and it took the longest time for me to see behind that and when I did it felt just a bit magical. This is going to sound like the cheesiest thing ever, but this scene from a crappy sci-fi series sums up exactly how I feel about him: www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi0VnsLqivY In terms of what I actually get though.... well he's a great person, and I get to have him in my life and my life is just better with him in it than without him - even with the chaos! He's super intelligent and we have really amazing conversations about work and he gives great advice and really listens to my problems and tries every time to be practical and help me. He's also incredibly caring towards me and I feel safe and protected by him which is such a nice feeling because I don't feel like he ever has an ulterior motive. He is also incredibly kind and empathetic and I can talk to him about pretty much anything and he always, always wants to listen to me and ask questions and hear what I have to say. I always feel like he's discovering me because he always wants to talk and ask me what I think and what I feel about stuff and if we're watching a show or a move he's always looking at me because he says he feels happy to see that I am enjoying something. He's also so much fun, we just enjoy doing stuff together so much and he's fantastic at coming up with the most fun /amazing / exciting thing ever and inviting me to do it with him so it's like he brings out this spirit of youth in me because he's kind of an eternal kid. He makes me feel like I can do anything, and he sees me with completely different eyes to the way anyone else does. Sometimes he says something and it makes me see myself or the situation in a totally different way like he's holding a mirror up to me. He makes me laugh, smile, feel good. I'd really like not to be so shallow that I needed a romantic commitment from him to be able to appreciate him being in my life, so I hope there's some way to work around it. Of course I want us to be together and I really think we should be but if he genuinely doesn't want that then I'd really like to find a way! |
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Post by yasmin on Dec 29, 2017 19:21:34 GMT
Yasmin - one of the things I remember most about the FA/DA I knew was the intensity of physical touching and affection. Whenever we were together anywhere he had to touch me in some way, lots of eye contact, lots of affection. It seems like its a constant for him - I've seen him since on a few 'first dates' with women where he tries to connect quickly in ways that would be unusual for the average person. It surprised me. Usually the day after he would retreat. I also noticed that if I seemed to pull away he would definitely respond with some concern, but if I said anything about how I felt about him it would over time freak him out. I find all of this pretty interesting from an intellectual level, but when I was involved I felt like I was losing my mind . That's very interesting and it's a very good point! I did forget that for him physical touch is his easiest way to connect to someone (he says this) so his physical affection fills a need for him and he does probably do this with other people too! |
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 29, 2017 19:28:36 GMT
Yasmin - one of the things I remember most about the FA/DA I knew was the intensity of physical touching and affection. Whenever we were together anywhere he had to touch me in some way, lots of eye contact, lots of affection. It seems like its a constant for him - I've seen him since on a few 'first dates' with women where he tries to connect quickly in ways that would be unusual for the average person. It surprised me. Usually the day after he would retreat. I also noticed that if I seemed to pull away he would definitely respond with some concern, but if I said anything about how I felt about him it would over time freak him out. I find all of this pretty interesting from an intellectual level, but when I was involved I felt like I was losing my mind . That's very interesting and it's a very good point! I did forget that for him physical touch is his easiest way to connect to someone (he says this) so his physical affection fills a need for him and he does probably do this with other people too! It might be his love language...physical touch is mine as well. . Although...I tend to give hugs.....hand holding etc is reserved for a relationship with me. |
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Post by yasmin on Dec 29, 2017 19:37:00 GMT
That's very interesting and it's a very good point! I did forget that for him physical touch is his easiest way to connect to someone (he says this) so his physical affection fills a need for him and he does probably do this with other people too! It might be his love language...physical touch is mine as well. . Although...I tend to give hugs.....hand holding etc is reserved for a relationship with me. I think the physical touching is for his benefit, it soothes him and makes him feel good. I think his real love language is acts of service. After a year of knowing each other and becoming close, he started to do things for me, practical things, to help me so I think that's how he expresses his real affection whereas the touching and kissing holds a different meaning for him (hence he's able to do it with 3 different people at the same time!!). This makes him sound so awful but honestly a year ago when we actually dated he had been in the habit of dating 2 - 4 women simultaneously. I don't believe that was for the benefit for chasing lots of woman but for him it was a barrier method of preventing intimacy with any one person. Over the past year we've talked so much about how unhealthy that is and while he gets annoyed at the time he takes everything on board in terms of what I say and he always listens and acts on it (eventually in his own time). Last night he told me he'd stopped dating all women (this is a major revelation) and he was only going to date one at a time from now on. So this is massive change and progress for him internally as it opens him up to an actual real relationship with someone but obviously the problem is that he doesn't want that person to be me apparently...!!! |
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I've dated so many men in my life and this one is up there in the top 3 most affectionate, most loving to me, most full of PDA and the other two I was either engaged to or married to!