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Post by yasmin on Feb 20, 2018 8:01:58 GMT
Haha. No don't worry..... I'm cool!!
I've got an FA trying to text me and the other guy sending me video messages of him singing "You've Lost that loving feeling" to try and get me to go back out with him.
*bangs head*
I'm focussing on work...
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Post by yasmin on Feb 20, 2018 13:15:23 GMT
I went for a really long run today and was thinking about a few things and wanted to come back and type them. All a bit random and unconnected! 1. I was thinking about my relationship with FA, and how intimate and warm and close it feels and I was thinking about how I am not sure someone who had secure or AP attachment could acutally fully "get" me. They could be empathetic and provide to my needs better, but I don't think they could ever really GET the heart of who I am because they don't know how I feel, and maybe this is why in previous relationships I have always felt at least a little alone, unconnected or as if the person loved a 2D image of me instead of the full 3D picture. @tgat , ocarina , BreakingTheSpell , @mary - what do you think on this? 2. I was also thinking about the comparisons between how men treat me and react to me, and at the moment I have this one secure guy who's chasing after me and providing various "services" to my ego (like chasing, consistency, flattery, validation) etc. and it occurs to me that these are the types of people I have always dated because they cater to the anxiety in me and provide me with a lot of adoration and validation. I have never loved an avoidant before because honestly, they did not out in enough work to get close to me. I was thinking about how painful dating an FA was in comparison, because he provided NONE of that and instead made me feel anxious and worried half the time. BUT on the other hand he catered to many of my emotional needs better than anyone else. So part of me is wondering if dating someone who "meets your needs" is ALWAYS the healthiest thing - because maybe some of your NEEDS are just....well...dysfunctional. Maybe it's better to date someone who slaps you awake and commands you to heal your wounds instead of perpetuating them? 3. I was also thinking about whether or not, if you're dating someone because they provide to your dysfunctional needs, that this isn't just codependence? I have felt extremely attached and "safe" with previous partners because they made me feel perfect / on a pedestal / adored and of course many of those were truly loving relationships but they were also ones where I was given a space where being my worst self was okay - and actually celebrated because they liked it and it fed their own dysfunctional needs. So I am thinking about how to find a relationship where I am expected to be my best self and I'm wondering how to do this. How to consciously shift this in myself. How to walk away from people who idolise me but don't TRULY see who I am (or care), and to find a space where I can find someone I can love in the same way I loved my FA, but obviously who chooses to love me back. I am wondering if that is even possible! 4. Not correlating with any of the above, I was thinking about what mrob said a lot when I was running and it made me feel sad. I think this is because mrob reminds me a lot of my ex FA who I miss and love. I am sure if he was posting here, he'd post a lot of the same things and the same words - which is probably why I've chewed your a$$ a few times mrob because I often take your posts personally because they remind me of my life and of someone I loved and believe loved me too but could just not get past his avoidance. Sometimes his words roll of the page here and I can see my ex FA talking and it's both nice and also difficult to read. I was thinking about how in many posts mrob likened love to being controlled, and mentioned maybe being "not that into" his ex girlfriend who wanted more from him but he just saw as a friend. Then by contrast I was posts later where he was sad about it and admitted she was the closest thing to intimacy he'd had and that he missed her. Not wanting to project at all because all situations are different, but I think my ex FA probably feels the same way and these cycles come and go. Like one minute he thinks "she's just my friend, she's not "the one", why is she trying to force me into what I don't want". Then other times, I think probably the block falls away and he feels sad and misses it and realises something isn't quite right but he just can't identify that the reason he feels that way is because he loves something that's gone. He has even said to me things like "sometimes I really want you and other times I don't" and "I want you so badly at times but then regret it afterwards", and it's like he is describing FA attachment in those sentences but can't see it at all. Which is frustrating for me. This all got me thinking that maybe in a way these boards provide us with a way to "speak" to our own SOs through others in a weird way and see things through their eyes in a way they can't express to us directly. Anyway, random running thoughts over! |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 20, 2018 13:40:20 GMT
Will comment more when not in the midst of work - but a few thoughts>>>>
1. I think a sense of kinship with a fellow avoidant - a sense of true understanding and real acceptance is certainly something that was really important in my last relationship - nobody else has ever "got" me and the feeling was mutual. My ex said it was like being by himself - and from him that was a compliment ha ha!
I have never felt loved or understood in the way that I did in my last relationship where it was quite ok to be strange together....
2.I think that relationships in their purest form are all about being slapped awake - about having someone who will mirror the inside of your soul, show you the uncomfortable stuff - not make you feel good all the time, inspire you to examine your wounds and heal them yourself. Very often we are looking for someone to mend us, bring out the good in us or whatever - when maybe what we need is someone who will encourage us to look inwards at our own dysfunction and begin the painful process of digging it up, examining it and letting it go for good.
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Post by Jaeger on Feb 20, 2018 14:03:30 GMT
Will comment more when not in the midst of work - but a few thoughts>>>> 1. I think a sense of kinship with a fellow avoidant - a sense of true understanding and real acceptance is certainly something that was really important in my last relationship - nobody else has ever "got" me and the feeling was mutual. My ex said it was like being by himself - and from him that was a compliment ha ha! I have never felt loved or understood in the way that I did in my last relationship where it was quite ok to be strange together.... 2.I think that relationships in their puerest form are all about being slapped awake - about having someone who will mirror the inside of your soul, show you the uncomfortable stuff - not make you feel good all the time, inspire you to examine your wounds and heal them yourself. Very often we are looking for someone to mend us, bring out the good in us or whatever - when maybe what we need is someone who will encourage us to look inwards at our own dysfunction and begin the painful process of digging it up, examining it and letting it go for good. That process can go both ways, as per the saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". This gives someone the opportunity to either face what is causing them to continually be in unhappy relationships, or it can make them retreat even further into avoidance because they can't face the level of discomfort it brings. For those with an avoidant partner, I would suggest this reaction as a point to make a clear choice on if and how to proceed. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 15:02:48 GMT
I went for a really long run today and was thinking about a few things and wanted to come back and type them. All a bit random and unconnected! 1. I was thinking about my relationship with FA, and how intimate and warm and close it feels and I was thinking about how I am not sure someone who had secure or AP attachment could acutally fully "get" me. They could be empathetic and provide to my needs better, but I don't think they could ever really GET the heart of who I am because they don't know how I feel, and maybe this is why in previous relationships I have always felt at least a little alone, unconnected or as if the person loved a 2D image of me instead of the full 3D picture. @tgat , ocarina , BreakingTheSpell , @mary - what do you think on this? 2. I was also thinking about the comparisons between how men treat me and react to me, and at the moment I have this one secure guy who's chasing after me and providing various "services" to my ego (like chasing, consistency, flattery, validation) etc. and it occurs to me that these are the types of people I have always dated because they cater to the anxiety in me and provide me with a lot of adoration and validation. I have never loved an avoidant before because honestly, they did not out in enough work to get close to me. I was thinking about how painful dating an FA was in comparison, because he provided NONE of that and instead made me feel anxious and worried half the time. BUT on the other hand he catered to many of my emotional needs better than anyone else. So part of me is wondering if dating someone who "meets your needs" is ALWAYS the healthiest thing - because maybe some of your NEEDS are just....well...dysfunctional. Maybe it's better to date someone who slaps you awake and commands you to heal your wounds instead of perpetuating them? 3. I was also thinking about whether or not, if you're dating someone because they provide to your dysfunctional needs, that this isn't just codependence? I have felt extremely attached and "safe" with previous partners because they made me feel perfect / on a pedestal / adored and of course many of those were truly loving relationships but they were also ones where I was given a space where being my worst self was okay - and actually celebrated because they liked it and it fed their own dysfunctional needs. So I am thinking about how to find a relationship where I am expected to be my best self and I'm wondering how to do this. How to consciously shift this in myself. How to walk away from people who idolise me but don't TRULY see who I am (or care), and to find a space where I can find someone I can love in the same way I loved my FA, but obviously who chooses to love me back. I am wondering if that is even possible! 4. Not correlating with any of the above, I was thinking about what mrob said a lot when I was running and it made me feel sad. I think this is because mrob reminds me a lot of my ex FA who I miss and love. I am sure if he was posting here, he'd post a lot of the same things and the same words - which is probably why I've chewed your a$$ a few times mrob because I often take your posts personally because they remind me of my life and of someone I loved and believe loved me too but could just not get past his avoidance. Sometimes his words roll of the page here and I can see my ex FA talking and it's both nice and also difficult to read. I was thinking about how in many posts mrob likened love to being controlled, and mentioned maybe being "not that into" his ex girlfriend who wanted more from him but he just saw as a friend. Then by contrast I was posts later where he was sad about it and admitted she was the closest thing to intimacy he'd had and that he missed her. Not wanting to project at all because all situations are different, but I think my ex FA probably feels the same way and these cycles come and go. Like one minute he thinks "she's just my friend, she's not "the one", why is she trying to force me into what I don't want". Then other times, I think probably the block falls away and he feels sad and misses it and realises something isn't quite right but he just can't identify that the reason he feels that way is because he loves something that's gone. He has even said to me things like "sometimes I really want you and other times I don't" and "I want you so badly at times but then regret it afterwards", and it's like he is describing FA attachment in those sentences but can't see it at all. Which is frustrating for me. This all got me thinking that maybe in a way these boards provide us with a way to "speak" to our own SOs through others in a weird way and see things through their eyes in a way they can't express to us directly. Anyway, random running thoughts over! For me, #1 is the biggest question of all and I have done a lot of thinking on it. I have come to the conclusion (for now) that I will be happiest with a partner who is a bit like me. (Insecure, but aware and working to the secure side). There is such a wide spectrum within the insecure styles. There are so many degrees of "insecurity" that it's hard to say that a certain style wouldn't work with me. I think someone who is closer to the secure side, but still insecure will be much different than an outlier. I think the understanding is very important to me. I once thought my ex was secure as he didn't have the push/pull and he didn't suffocate me, but as things unfolded, I can see he is an insecure style. I think it's why we were both able to get deep with each other as there was a certain understanding I never had before. I can see now that we are two people that were unavailable but we became available only to each other. I outpaced him and that's when I started to see trouble. Knowing this, I do think that we are going to be able to work it out and come together again. The ones to really watch out for are the ones that idolize you. I see the draw to them and I have been drawn to them in the past, but have learned that the ones that idolize are ones that are closer to the narc spectrum, which comes with a whole lot of other troubles. It's important that someone sees you as a whole person, the good and the bad. There is no one out there (in my opinion) that will heal your wounds. I think it's going to be a dead end to even look for that. I also don't think that someone who can meet your needs are necessarily perpetuating them. I think the fallacy is on trying to find someone who will meet the short term needs rather than the long term ones. You are drawn to men that idolize you, because it feels good in the beginning, but in the long run, they are not a person that can meet your needs further into the relationship. The trick is in finding someone that can meet your needs in the beginning and at the different stages. It's s trick, because I think in the beginning, you will feel like your needs are not being fully met, and you can't see past that. |
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Post by yasmin on Feb 20, 2018 16:01:08 GMT
so right @mary!!!
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Post by mrob on Feb 20, 2018 16:41:04 GMT
Absolutely. I knew there was something wrong with me, and when my ex-wife and I got together I knew that she would be able to plug some of my holes. I also knew that, with her, we could have a family and any children would have a secure base to jump from, because on my own, I'm not, as my posts here suggest. I never thought I would take the path I did. It had been 7 years since my previous marriage where I had identified my insecurity as the reason for it going bad. I just had no idea that insecurity would come out in other ways.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 17:04:53 GMT
sorry,, i'm way behind and have to read back through to the tag yasmin! i will jump in after work tonight! carry on, 😬😘 |
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Post by mrob on Feb 20, 2018 17:08:45 GMT
4. Not correlating with any of the above, I was thinking about what mrob said a lot when I was running and it made me feel sad. I think this is because mrob reminds me a lot of my ex FA who I miss and love. I am sure if he was posting here, he'd post a lot of the same things and the same words - which is probably why I've chewed your a$$ a few times mrob because I often take your posts personally because they remind me of my life and of someone I loved and believe loved me too but could just not get past his avoidance. Sometimes his words roll of the page here and I can see my ex FA talking and it's both nice and also difficult to read. I was thinking about how in many posts mrob likened love to being controlled, and mentioned maybe being "not that into" his ex girlfriend who wanted more from him but he just saw as a friend. Then by contrast I was posts later where he was sad about it and admitted she was the closest thing to intimacy he'd had and that he missed her. Not wanting to project at all because all situations are different, but I think my ex FA probably feels the same way and these cycles come and go. Like one minute he thinks "she's just my friend, she's not "the one", why is she trying to force me into what I don't want". Then other times, I think probably the block falls away and he feels sad and misses it and realises something isn't quite right but he just can't identify that the reason he feels that way is because he loves something that's gone. He has even said to me things like "sometimes I really want you and other times I don't" and "I want you so badly at times but then regret it afterwards", and it's like he is describing FA attachment in those sentences but can't see it at all. Which is frustrating for me. This all got me thinking that maybe in a way these boards provide us with a way to "speak" to our own SOs through others in a weird way and see things through their eyes in a way they can't express to us directly. Anyway, random running thoughts over! The stupid part about all this is that I see the frustration, and I'm sorry. Not into her isn't an accurate description - I think I said that about someone else. My circumstances trump any relationship. She would beg me, "I'm not being unreasonable, am I?", and I knew she wasn't. The expectations she had of me were not unreasonable in a boyfriend/girlfriend situation. I kept telling her that I couldn't give her what she wanted. What I don't think I saw was what is plainly obvious... Being intimate (as opposed to sex) led her to believe that there is a possibility of something more permanent. A step that I wasn't prepared to take. Yes, I miss her, the intimacy was something I'll always cherish, the conversation, the shared interests, but I try on a daily basis to stay out of her life, and let her get on with Mr New who will do the stuff I wouldn't; who wouldn't baulk at meeting family or any escalation; who would be totally public on FB; who has a life where she can be his No1. She deserves that. I've got stuff I need to look at. This can't happen again. |
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Post by yasmin on Feb 20, 2018 17:22:56 GMT
4. Not correlating with any of the above, I was thinking about what mrob said a lot when I was running and it made me feel sad. I think this is because mrob reminds me a lot of my ex FA who I miss and love. I am sure if he was posting here, he'd post a lot of the same things and the same words - which is probably why I've chewed your a$$ a few times mrob because I often take your posts personally because they remind me of my life and of someone I loved and believe loved me too but could just not get past his avoidance. Sometimes his words roll of the page here and I can see my ex FA talking and it's both nice and also difficult to read. I was thinking about how in many posts mrob likened love to being controlled, and mentioned maybe being "not that into" his ex girlfriend who wanted more from him but he just saw as a friend. Then by contrast I was posts later where he was sad about it and admitted she was the closest thing to intimacy he'd had and that he missed her. Not wanting to project at all because all situations are different, but I think my ex FA probably feels the same way and these cycles come and go. Like one minute he thinks "she's just my friend, she's not "the one", why is she trying to force me into what I don't want". Then other times, I think probably the block falls away and he feels sad and misses it and realises something isn't quite right but he just can't identify that the reason he feels that way is because he loves something that's gone. He has even said to me things like "sometimes I really want you and other times I don't" and "I want you so badly at times but then regret it afterwards", and it's like he is describing FA attachment in those sentences but can't see it at all. Which is frustrating for me. This all got me thinking that maybe in a way these boards provide us with a way to "speak" to our own SOs through others in a weird way and see things through their eyes in a way they can't express to us directly. Anyway, random running thoughts over! The stupid part about all this is that I see the frustration, and I'm sorry. Not into her isn't an accurate description - I think I said that about someone else. My circumstances trump any relationship. She would beg me, "I'm not being unreasonable, am I?", and I knew she wasn't. The expectations she had of me were not unreasonable in a boyfriend/girlfriend situation. I kept telling her that I couldn't give her what she wanted. What I don't think I saw was what is plainly obvious... Being intimate (as opposed to sex) led her to believe that there is a possibility of something more permanent. A step that I wasn't prepared to take. Yes, I miss her, the intimacy was something I'll always cherish, the conversation, the shared interests, but I try on a daily basis to stay out of her life, and let her get on with Mr New who will do the stuff I wouldn't; who wouldn't baulk at meeting family or any escalation; who would be totally public on FB; who has a life where she can be his No1. She deserves that. I've got stuff I need to look at. This can't happen again. The huge difference between you an my ex FA is that you're aware of this, you see this as "your relationship issues" and I think you should really appreciate how much strength and self awareness it would take to get to that point. From there, you have a shot at making it through this by making the changes you need to make. My ex FA is caught in a trap, because he honestly believes he is looking for "the one" and that not finding her is the problem and that there's nothing wrong with him. Sure, he says stuff like "maybe I am bad at intimacy", but I don;t think he realises what that means. Like you, he settled into one very long term relationship and had children, but he never fully loved her, never fully felt all of it and he perceived this as her being the wrong woman (maybe she was maybe she wasn't, who knows) and he said he just settled with it and let her control him. But felt resentment. Since then (almost 6 years of dating) he has not met a single person he thinks is good enough for anything more than friends with benefits despite going on three dates a week minimum. He meets women he really likes initially and thinks they are potential GFs and then within 2 - 3 weeks starts picking apart their flaws or coming up with reasons why it won't work. He honestly can't see AT ALL that his attachment is the problem here, he thinks it's just been an endless parade of "wrong women" and until he sees it, it will go on forever. It makes him feel like he's flawed, like he can't find what he's searching for when everyone else can and it also brings pain to his partners who are being rejected for silly reasons with him taking no responsibility. So the pattern for him is to live in a perpetual state of searching for "the one" and desperately wanting a relationship, but then rejecting / sabotaging every chance he gets. So where you are isn't hopeless...it's light years on from where he is. You've got this! |
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Post by kristyrose on Feb 20, 2018 17:27:54 GMT
this thread is really amazing. mrob I am really impressed with how you show up here so vulnerable and honest. It helps so much in my own understanding and healing to hear your story. I know my ex is a whole different person, but the similarities in fearing any escalation are exactly the same. All I keep thinking is that I did something wrong, but I'm reminding myself that it is so much more complex. I just wish he had the desire to heal but he does not see any reasons to look inward. I'm glad you are taking those brave steps forward. |
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Post by kristyrose on Feb 20, 2018 17:34:00 GMT
The stupid part about all this is that I see the frustration, and I'm sorry. Not into her isn't an accurate description - I think I said that about someone else. My circumstances trump any relationship. She would beg me, "I'm not being unreasonable, am I?", and I knew she wasn't. The expectations she had of me were not unreasonable in a boyfriend/girlfriend situation. I kept telling her that I couldn't give her what she wanted. What I don't think I saw was what is plainly obvious... Being intimate (as opposed to sex) led her to believe that there is a possibility of something more permanent. A step that I wasn't prepared to take. Yes, I miss her, the intimacy was something I'll always cherish, the conversation, the shared interests, but I try on a daily basis to stay out of her life, and let her get on with Mr New who will do the stuff I wouldn't; who wouldn't baulk at meeting family or any escalation; who would be totally public on FB; who has a life where she can be his No1. She deserves that. I've got stuff I need to look at. This can't happen again. The huge difference between you an my ex FA is that you're aware of this, you see this as "your relationship issues" and I think you should really appreciate how much strength and self awareness it would take to get to that point. From there, you have a shot at making it through this by making the changes you need to make. My ex FA is caught in a trap, because he honestly believes he is looking for "the one" and that not finding her is the problem and that there's nothing wrong with him. Sure, he says stuff like "maybe I am bad at intimacy", but I don;t think he realises what that means. Like you, he settled into one very long term relationship and had children, but he never fully loved her, never fully felt all of it and he perceived this as her being the wrong woman (maybe she was maybe she wasn't, who knows) and he said he just settled with it and let her control him. But felt resentment. Since then (almost 6 years of dating) he has not met a single person he thinks is good enough for anything more than friends with benefits despite going on three dates a week minimum. He meets women he really likes initially and thinks they are potential GFs and then within 2 - 3 weeks starts picking apart their flaws or coming up with reasons why it won't work. He honestly can't see AT ALL that his attachment is the problem here, he thinks it's just been an endless parade of "wrong women" and until he sees it, it will go on forever. It makes him feel like he's flawed, like he can't find what he's searching for when everyone else can and it also brings pain to his partners who are being rejected for silly reasons with him taking no responsibility. So the pattern for him is to live in a perpetual state of searching for "the one" and desperately wanting a relationship, but then rejecting / sabotaging every chance he gets. So where you are isn't hopeless...it's light years on from where he is. You've got this! Yasmin just described my ex perfectly! He thinks a perfect woman can make all of the ambivalence go away, and at age 45, his longest relationship was with me for 2 years. I think he is severely avoidant as he has never lived with a woman and barely understands what it means to be open and vulnerable and empathetic. You are indeed light years away from that! You are so much farther along than you realize, you do got this!!!! we are rooting for you! |
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Post by mrob on Feb 20, 2018 17:41:15 GMT
Thanks Yasmin  Some may say I'm cynical, but I don't believe in "the one". Nobody can possibly fulfil everything. I have had relationships with really good women. The one above couldn't have done anything more, anything better. My ex-wife, well, I really tried to stop this stuff and love the glass half full person she is. She was that both inside and outside before our marriage exploded. I've seen her every day this week in my work and she's just amazing. I've had quiet tears both mornings. Thanks for the hope. And how on Earth does he get three dates a week? Is he George Clooney or something? |
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Post by mrob on Feb 20, 2018 17:54:37 GMT
this thread is really amazing. mrob I am really impressed with how you show up here so vulnerable and honest. It helps so much in my own understanding and healing to hear your story. I know my ex is a whole different person, but the similarities in fearing any escalation are exactly the same. All I keep thinking is that I did something wrong, but I'm reminding myself that it is so much more complex. I just wish he had the desire to heal but he does not see any reasons to look inward. I'm glad you are taking those brave steps forward. Thank you! I've spent the best part of 42 years destroying myself. One by one things that I've used to stop feeling have been exposed for what they are. Some have been taken away. When one hears stories of addicts to whatever substance, you would expect to hear "I got sober/clean and I lived happily ever after". Not me.. I've done more damage to people after than what I ever did before. There's nothing left to take the pain away. I'm no stranger to looking within, but this seems to be the stuff that colours every interaction with another human being in my life. And I'm tired. I've had enough of the sickness, the hurt and sadness. |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 20, 2018 17:59:04 GMT
My relationship stuck because whilst my ex partner recognised there was something wrong - that he was the cause of all his relationship problems and knew that his behaviour was the thing that caused me to leave - he still couldn't moderate that behaviour. He told me he had no idea why he did the neglect cycle over and over again BUT he couldn't see the point in counselling. That it was up to me if I stayed and accepted or left.
So I agree awareness is key - but what comes after that? My ex partner has chosen never to be in a relationship again - that if it didn't work with me then that would be it. I think this illustrates just how powerful and deeply embedded this behaviour is and how even with awareness and openness, shifting these old patterns is a big challenge and a serious choice.
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