katy
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Post by katy on Oct 23, 2016 18:01:27 GMT
I've done quite a bit of reading and studying about what happens when people with anxious attachment styles are subjected to push / pull relationships and are abandoned. Often, they end up in years-long struggles to pull themselves out of the ensuing depression and they are often obsessed with making a relationship work with the person who abandoned them.
People who have written posts on this forum about having been abandoned by an avoidant, and probably many other people who are lurking on this site, are in the middle of a fight to reclaim themselves and to understand what good relationships actually are. Their anxiety-based tendency is usually to want to get back together with the avoidant to make the relationship work the next time. As Jeb's books discuss and as you can read in the articles that I've referenced below, that obsessive need to make it work with a rejecting person is often based in childhood trauma.
I understand that once in a while a person who has shown rejecting, avoidant personality traits comes around and the abandoned individual suddenly has a life-long, respectful, fulfilling relationship with the person who abandoned them. But, from my reading, I believe that dragging somebody with avoidant traits, who has treated you poorly, back into a relationship is probably just going to end in more heartbreak and misery.
I personally don't want to be part of giving vulnerable people false hope that their fervent wish to reunite with a person who has already treated them in a very rejecting manner is going to provide them with a happy life. I want to help people move on to successful, happy lives, not encourage them in more ways to lure a rejecting person back into a relationship.
Here are some of the materials that I've found which are very illuminating which describe the often years-long, very damaging and painful obsession that develops when anxious individuals don't grow past their heart's desire to reunite with the avoidant person who abandoned them:
Trauma Bonding
pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2015/10/what-is-trauma-bonding/
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Love Addiction
www.brightertomorrow.net/writingsarticles.htm
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Limerence
www.limerence.net/
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Long-Term Emotional Trauma due to Abandonment
www.abandonment.net/journey-from-abandonment-to-healing-susan-anderson
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 18:02:35 GMT
"I read somewhere that over time the defense the avoidants put up to dislike their ex erodes and that they feel the results of the breakup much later... is this accurate ?"
I can't say for sure, but I would say that the dislike erodes over time. I think this is pretty normal for most people. The dislike is strong enough to breakup, but it fades away over time.
As an avoidant, breakups do have an effect but I will never show it. It's also very possible it's easier for me to walk away than others. I understood what's happening when I read the Strange Situation. When the parents left the avoidant children, there was no outward sign of distress. When they were reunited, the children did not acknowledge the parent and may even have showed outward signs of "dislike". They found that physiologically, the children had the same reaction as others with different attachment styles, it just didn't translate to the outward behavior. Sometimes I find myself being happy to see someone, yet I cannot get my body or mouth to say or do the right things.
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Post by mads on Oct 23, 2016 18:41:17 GMT
Mary, would you say that you experience the pain after the relief goes away?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 22:44:35 GMT
Hi Mads, I can't say it's pain really. When I briefly broke up with my current partner, I missed him a lot. I missed talking to him, seeing him, etc. My heart raced and I had trouble sleeping. Is this pain? I'm not sure, but I knew my life was better with him in it.
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raco
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by raco on Oct 24, 2016 0:25:12 GMT
I need closure and definitely can't hurt at this point to talk. I am scared now. I feel like he'll say he just doesn't have time for r/s. You'll probably only have one chance to talk to him. He wants to avoid this conversation, so if he manages to find an excuse to avoid it and you have to ask for it one more time, he will run away even faster. I doubt he will accept to meet you to talk about the breakup. If you text and ask to meet him, I think he will find a way to escape. He may accept to meet you at a later date (so he can avoid talking to you right now), but then he will do everything he can to avoid the meeting. You will have to ask again, making him even more uncomfortable, and lowering your chances even more. I think that's what is likely to happen because your ex reminds me a lot of someone I know, from whom I was not able to get closure, even though he kept saying that we would talk soon. I can see a lot of things in common in their behaviors. If I were you, and if I really wanted closure, then I would choose the right time and I would go knock at his door. His fear of conflict will probably make it impossible for him to shut the door in your face, especially if his roommate is at home. This may be a bad idea, but I think it's likely you will never be able to talk to him otherwise. You once had planned a meeting to talk about your relationship, and this meeting would have been much easier for him than the one you could have now. Yet he didn't show up, and didn't contact you until the next day. As you figured out, if you manage to talk to him, he will probably keep saying the same thing ("I can't give you much time and your children need you") again and again, no matter what you say, to avoid going deeper into the subject. That's what happened to me and it was really disconcerting. He did that when you ran into him at Starbucks, and I doubt he will do better than this next time, because his anxiety will be even worse. You said you felt that this is what would happen, and I'm sure you're right. Your ex seems highly avoidant to me. You gave a very long list of avoidant behaviors, that you identified very well. It's even possible that living with a roommate is due to his avoidant attachment style. The avoidant guy I dated and talked about above also has a roommate. Of course, there are plenty of reasons why one would live with a roommate that have nothing to do with being avoidant, but I think that some avoidants use house share so they can have a human presence at home without having the pressure of a romantic relationship. Avoidants have an approach-avoid conflict, they do need a connection with other human beings, even if they try to convince themselves that they don't. Like most people, they can dislike going back home every evening to an empty house, make dinner and eat it alone in front of the TV. Do you think I was being too needy asking to see him more? Of course not! On the contrary, you were too passive in the relationship, allowing him to control your visiting time, never initiating calls or text messages. Your ex started to withdraw right after you asked him if you could see each other twice a week. It basically means that he could not stand the idea of not having 100% control over the relationship. So I think he's really highly avoidant.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2016 15:09:01 GMT
"That surprised me, cause that was so not what it was at the time, but feel like that's how he justifies it. I asked her what he meant and she said, getting the issues from divorce with your exhusband resolved and children worked out. This was interesting to me, cause a couple mos. before, my ex was spending night and exhusband texted last minute saying there was a situation and he had to drop kids off that night. My ex got so uncomfortable when I read that text, he wanted to leave. He said I could come over to his place later if he didn't show up, but I saw the flight response then. I was able to talk him into staying and ex husband ended up not dropping kids off, but the idea of confrontation of any type had him really stressed. Nothing ever came up about that again, there was never any issue so just thought it was interesting the excuses he gave. I feel like it was fault finding. In my mind, he got scared. We were getting too close and unconsciously panicked and flew the fortress, but I'm sure he doesn't see it like that. "
I don't see this as really unusual. Kids, and exes are tricky with current partners. I think it's an uncomfortable situation for even the most secure. Also, 7 months doesn't seem to be a very long time for a partner to be comfortable around your children and/or a meeting with your ex. I know many mothers that don't introduce their children to boyfriends for a good 6 months. I also don't know if saying you have to get things settled regarding your ex and kids is "fault finding". It sounds pretty logical and normal. Situations with kids can be complicated. However, these are things that do need to be talked about and if he was unwilling to talk these issues through, the problems will just get worse. However, if you never broached the subjects (except when they came up like the situation you described) I can't say that you know he was unwilling. If you never initiated texts and dates, I think it's possible you didn't initiate much discussion either. I think when it comes to kids, it's normal that the person who has the kids will initiate the discussion on that. My current partner said he always took the mother's lead when it came to their children since he didn't have any.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2016 15:23:34 GMT
Kristy, I'm sort of playing "devil's advocate" here, because I think that anxious people tend to have the perception that people don't care enough, just as the avoidant thinks the other person cares too much. We all look through a different "lens". I think sometimes the anxious view even secure people as avoidant as well, since an anxious person needs much more time and attention than a secure person. If he is secure, it's possible he's giving you space and treading lightly since you have children. It's also possible, he is avoidant although I would say it's not extreme and therefore workable. Since you broke up with him, it doesn't follow the normal pattern of avoidant breaking off with anxious.
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Post by Jo on Oct 24, 2016 15:35:46 GMT
There have been a lot of useful and interesting discussions on this thread, but I think that we have to bear in mind that we have not yet heard the perspective, view or experience of your ex. The only way to answer your questions, I guess, and as someone else has suggested, is to talk to him. If he does not wish to talk, or does not answer, then no answer might be your answer. It might be based on things other than attachment issues, or it might not.
It's horrible to be on the receiving end of this - it has happened to me in the past, although not with my current partner, who whilst being a very high-end DA, talks things through, despite wanting to run for the hills, or dig himself a very big hole to hide in at the time. He has to force himself not to close down sometimes, although I have been become more aware and considerate of this overtime. We talk about 'relationship stuff' much less now (five years on) and when we do, we thankfully work through things much more quickly, but it takes initiation on both sides, even when you both dread it.
Very quickly - as the mother I took the lead with my children - it was about a year into the relationship. It does sometimes depend on the age or emotional development of the child 'though.
Jo
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Post by Kl on Oct 26, 2016 5:49:13 GMT
I appreciate everyone's input and taking time to offer thoughts. It has really helped me cope and am interested to hear different perspectives. Katy, I loved your opinion on each of us walking .25 miles to meet each other. Had to laugh at that cause so true!! And I have been getting help for why I attracted an emotionally unavailable man, because at some level, I must be, too. Raco, I appreciate thoughts. Agree totally about having to go to door, but at this point am going to wait. He told my friend yesterday he missed me and thought about calling to see how I've been, so we'll see if he can. She usually stays out of our r/s, but was as puzzled and hurt as I was since the four of us were so close, so has mentioned a few things, but he doesn't know, and usually he's so private. But to answer the person's question about do they miss you, I did not initiate contact at all, tried to respect him and give him space but wanted him to know I would also keep my options open (this was mistake. Mary thought that it may have shut door more, wouldn't go that far next time. The fact I didn't contact him should be enough to let him know I was taking care of my needs) but he did say it twice, so it is possible some do. Will it change how he is? No, but is somewhat comforting to know he did have some type of feelings, that it wasn't all in my head. Mary, thanks again for offering your take on things from perspective of avoidance. I thought it was weird he used the excuse of ex/kids because it had absolutely nothing to do with conversation that night. It must have been bothering him on some level, but everything was fine and dandy, he was planning our next date, then when I told him I needed to see him more, total 360. I'm certain if that conversation didn't happen, we wouldn't have broken up at that point. I also didn't break up with him. I just agreed to it because, essentially, he was already doing that. I do regret the way I handled some things, and I do agree he is not as avoidant as a lot of the ones I've heard others describe, but definiteley has tendencies. I think more fearful than dismissive, and has defense mechanisms in place. In my mind this is what I feel happened. This is a quote from Hal Shorey, PhD.'s article on fearful avoidants:
"Imagine feeling lonely inside and craving love and affection. Then you meet someone wonderful. You are full of joy and excitement. Now you can feel whole and good like you know you should! But several months later, when your romantic partner throws his or her arms around you and tells you that (s)he loves you, you experience a flood of anxiety and sense of impending doom. You try to act happy, because you know that is how a "normal" person would feel. But you have a hard time hiding your anxiety. You try to fix it by explaining, but this effort only makes you sound off balance. Across the coming days you feel increasingly squirrely, start to pick up on signs that your partner is having second thoughts, and get that awful feeling in your gut...you know...the one you spend your whole life trying to avoid. As the relationship begins to implode you just want to scream, "what the heck just happened?!" What happened is that you ran straight into your own defensive wall; that part of your personality that is trying to protect you and keep you safe. Of course, this defense is not a rational process; it is housed deep in the emotional centers of your brain and is automatically triggered by signals from the environment. It does not care about your rational thought processes or your adult need for love and affection. It would rather you be sad and lonely than injured."
When I read this, it all made sense. Going over the whole conversation, I feel his protective mode kicked in high gear, although on the phone that night, he acted like everything was ok. The unsettling part is they don't know it's fear based, so there's not really closure. Kristy
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Post by mads on Oct 26, 2016 17:32:46 GMT
do avoidants have a tendency to move the relationship really quickly then just turn off like a light switch after a month or two?
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raco
Junior Member
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Post by raco on Oct 27, 2016 10:12:05 GMT
do avoidants have a tendency to move the relationship really quickly then just turn off like a light switch after a month or two? Yes, definitely. They can seem very interested at first, do and especially say a lot of things that could make you think they're not avoidant at all, then become suddenly distant.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 14:12:04 GMT
do avoidants have a tendency to move the relationship really quickly then just turn off like a light switch after a month or two? I don't do this, but I am a dismissive avoidant. I move at a snail's pace. However, I have a very good friend that does this repeatedly. I told her that she was avoidant, she looked into it and later said she thought fearful avoidant fit her. It makes sense for a fearful avoidant as they really want a relationship, but they can't handle it as it progresses.
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