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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 16:09:07 GMT
Through reading and responding on threads here, I am starting to wonder about something. Why does it seem that the avoidants are so much more disliked than the anxious? It's possible, I haven't read enough threads in the other sections to get a more balanced view, so I apologize if that is the case.
Avoidant and anxious are 2 sides of the same coin, both push away from relationships, but use different tactics. The avoidant tends to disappear while the anxious drives the other away with their need for attention. The end result is the same and the fear behind it is the same.
Is it because the avoidant leaves without much explanation or that they appear to be cold hearted? Is the anxious style easier to digest for most people?
Is it just this forum? Among my male friends, I have heard them complain far more about relationship difficulties with anxious types than avoidant, so just curious about this.
Thank you.
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katy
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Post by katy on Oct 17, 2016 16:44:44 GMT
Mary,
I totally agree that avoidant and anxious are two attachment styles which have developed out of early suffering. Each person has been damaged and reacts in different ways to very sad early suffering.
My observation about myself and many of the people who have participated in this forum is that we recognize that the avoidant has been hurt and has suffered in the past and we get hooked on helping them to recover and to make everything OK again.
The lesson that I had to learn was that the avoidant whom I knew had a wonderful side but that the triggered, hostile, avoidant side to his personality was also real. It was very hard for me to understand that my being kind to him or trying to negotiate a different way for us to relate was not going to suddenly make things good again. I had to force myself to understand that the dislike that he was demonstrating towards me was very locked into his thinking and that he wouldn't wake up tomorrow and begin to like me again. I had to understand that, in my case, he wasn't motivated or able to suddenly pull himself out of life-long patterns and begin to be open and collaborative.
I also know that in my case, and probably in many other people's cases, the avoidant's ambivalent push/pull behavior can be very triggering. Being associated with somebody who is giving mixed signals can raise even a relatively secure person's anxiety levels. So, the increase in anxious person's distress in the face of the avoidant's erratic approval just kicks the discord between an avoidant and an anxious person to an even higher level of frenzy. Both people are being triggered because of their attachment styles.
I know in my heart that avoidants have had very difficult lives and that avoidants are not inherently evil people, but, for myself, I had to also firmly convince myself that I am not going to be able to help the avoidant whom I knew to heal and to become more open unless he also wants to participate in that effort. That was an extremely difficult lesson for me to learn.
I so thank you for all of your insights over the months and I very much admire you for how you have worked hard to be able to see both sides of a relationship. I think so many people on this forum wish that the avoidant whom they knew would be as open and observant as you have been.
Thanks again,
Katy
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Post by Jo on Oct 17, 2016 16:46:09 GMT
Hello Mary,
What an interesting post. As you know I am the long term partner of a high end DA. But in the past I have been pursued by one or two anxious men, who have assumed too much too soon, and have been very 'full on' without me wanting them to be. In the case of the latter type, I have lost interest very, very quickly. Despite the traits of my partner, I would rather be with him, than an anxious attachment type. Yet as you say, they mirror him. They tell me that they love me, they are very affectionate, they text me when I least expect them to. They want to go on holiday, and in every case, they have made it clear, very early on, that 'I am the one'. You would think that I would stick with them like glue, and yet I run a mile. I guess that for me it's like being in a very yummy cake shop. If I am given a little piece of a wonderful cake - I want more of it. And if the cake is taken away, I ask for it, and want it even more. But if I am presented with the whole cake, which looks delicious at first, I soon get sick of it, and wish that I hadn't eaten so much.
I will be interested to hear other views, Jo
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katy
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Post by katy on Oct 17, 2016 17:20:39 GMT
Jo,
A very interesting thought about the cake. I too have run very quickly from very anxious, clinging people. I think my frustration with the avoidant whom I knew was that I wanted to break through his avoidant shut-down and allow us to work things out like two (mostly) secure people the way I'm able to do with my husband and most other people.
My difficulty was understanding that this wasn't just a difference of opinion or a misunderstanding that could be worked out with some discussion and negotiations. It took me a while, and especially Mary's comments, to finally see that his thought patterns are most likely very different from mine.
Katy
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Post by trixie5179 on Oct 17, 2016 18:06:16 GMT
I agree with a lot of what Katy has said, about getting hooked on trying to make things ok with the avoidant again. I think that come from my own anxiety and rejection issues. I always want to fix things and get back the love that was there. Because if it was there before, why not now? It's difficult, but as I get older (I'm in my 30's) I'm more aware of my own issues.
I think that being with someone with anxious attachment could be 'just as bad' as being with someone who is avoidant, although it depends on the severity and the individual. Personally, while I do have generalized anxiety, in relationships my attachment depends a lot on my partner. In my 20's I dated a secure man and felt secure, an alcoholic man who made me very very anxious and unhappy to the point I barely slept at night, and an anxious man who was very very sensitive and blaming...which drove me crazy. It may sound strange, but with my avoidant ex, during our relationship I felt an internal anxiety at times, but was able to recognize it, tell myself to kind of 'calm down, see it through' and I felt it go away. Most of the time with him, I felt secure. But I know that had I dated him years ago, before gaining experience with other relationships and my own issues, I probably would've been way more anxious the entire relationship.
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raco
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Post by raco on Oct 17, 2016 18:28:14 GMT
A short answer could be "because avoidants share a lot with narcissists". And if you know about narcissism, then you know that narcissistic people don't really inspire admiration. I can give a few things that avoidants have in common with narcissists: - they feel better when they are in control
- they don't show to others who they truly are, they kinda wear a mask, have a fake persona
- which means that they have fake friendships, their relationships are based on an illusion
- they can appear to be charming in public, but can be really rude in private
- they have a very limited sense of empathy
- they can lie easily (to others and to themselves)
- they have a high self-esteem on the surface, but low in reality (at least for dismissives)
- they can not tolerate to be really known
- they don't tolerate flaws in their partners, but expect their partner to put up with their numerous flaws
- they tend to gaslight their partner
- they discard others easily with no or little remorse
- they are unable to see reality for what it is
- they hurt others and don't care about it
It's just what I can think of now, but I'm sure there are many more things. Now the differences: - the avoidant do not enjoy torturing people
- the avoidant is not driven by the desire to prove to the world that he is above everyone else
I am an anxious-preoccupied, and I've been involved with a lot of avoidants (they are 25% of the population, so we all are involved with lots of avoidants, unless we know only a couple of people). I have yet to see one that is truly altruistic. A friend of mine who is avoidant told me that he doesn't understand when I care about the bad things that happen in the world. He told me that his only goal is to earn as much money as he can no matter what he has to do for that (and he succeeded, he is now rich). He is considering finding a gorgeous woman in Russia, to give her a "salary", so that he can live with her, have sex when he desires, and have her take care of the home while he's at work. When I learned about avoidant attachment, I suddenly understood everything about this "friend". I understood why we could only see each other when he wanted to, I understood why he could talk about doing this and that together but could never make anything happen, etc. And I started reconsidering my friendship with him. Another example? I was in a romantic relationship with an avoidant, and everything seemed fine. The guy would contact me several times a week, talking to me in a romantic way, using various terms of endearment. After 6 months, I dared to say to my avoidant partner that it was weird that he would never tell me anything about his life. I could not name a single friend of him, I knew nothing about his family, almost nothing about his life. When I voiced my concern, I got an email saying that I misunderstood him because of language issues (he's american but English is not my mother tongue), and that he apologized for using terms that could mislead me, and that he just wanted to be my friend. He had sex with me, called me "sweety", "baby cakes", etc, but of course, my English is so bad that I stupidely thought that he wanted more than a simple non-romantic friendship. Then he started to withdraw, but kept saying that everything was fine between us, that there was no problem at all, that I was paranoid (= gaslighting). And then, he disappeared with no explanation at all. I was hurt? Yes, but he didn't care. I saw who he truly was, so he just discarded me and moved on to the next person with whom he will do the same. We often hear that some people dump their partner with just an SMS, and I thought that was the worst that could be done. Then I realized that some people can do even worse than that. You, you would probably never do that. But some avoidants can do such things. I now have experience with them, but still today, I can be amazed by what they are capable of doing. They really can do some things that malignant pathological narcissists do. I think you will never see an anxious-preoccupied do such things. They tend to dedicate themselves to their partner. It's not healthy, I agree with that, but they are trying to reinforce their relationships, not to sabotage them. They are not fake. They are not perfect, they have flaws, lots of flaws, but when you're in a relationship with one of them, you are not living in an illusion. You are living with someone who really cares for you, and will not dump you and forget you in a snap because you have a flaw or because you dared to ask about his/her life. I know my opinion could be biased because I have an anxious attachment style, but I think I gave some arguments to try to prove my point. I know how I am, and it would never occur to me to make the slightest lie to my partner. It would never occur to me to dump someone and just disappear without talking. It would never occur to me to sabotage my relationship on purpose. If I came to hurt my partner, I would feel sooo bad. I would feel like I'm a bad person. I would try to make up for it. I would certainly not just blame my partner and run away. Avoidants are like those persons in a burning building who run over other people in order to escape faster, no matter if the others have to die. The escape is their priority. If they hurt others in the process, then it doesn't matter to them. They don't care. Like narcissists. But when there is a fire, the danger is real. And nobody pretends to like being in a fire. Avoidants pretend to love you and the relationship, and the danger they run away from is not real. |
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katy
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Post by katy on Oct 17, 2016 19:03:10 GMT
Raco,
I did see some of the narcissistic behaviors on your list. I've read several articles, including one by the author that Kristy recommended, Hal Shorey, which discussed the continuum between avoidant and narcissistic behaviors. The husband of a friend of mine, who is a psychiatrist, who has heard lots of details about the person whom I dealt with, told me that he believes that the person whom I dealt with is probably avoidant with narcissistic tendencies.
I've been thinking about Mary's question. I suspect that the reason that this Dismissive-Avoidant section of the forum contains so many posts by people who have been broken-hearted by avoidants is that the abandoned people are the ones who are still sad and wishful that maybe things might work out. They are reaching out for help to understand what happened.
From the literature and from the avoidant people who have shared their thought on this forum, it appears likely that dismissive avoidant people would normally just drop the person who is triggering their avoidant feelings and then walk away. It would seem that these dismissive avoidant people are probably much less likely to be pining about the person whom they dumped and are probably not too likely to write posts on a forum about their feelings.
Katy
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 20:17:09 GMT
Yes, I think there is a lot of mixing up of attachment issues with narcissism. A person may exhibit both tendencies, but they are not always connected. There are limited studies regarding attachment, but narcissism is actually positively correlated with both avoidant and anxious attachment types. I knew a few anxious narcissists and encountered much of what you describe. I find both narcissists and anxious types to be very controlling. Avoidants don't care to control anyone but themselves, so I guess I disagree a bit on your analysis. And let's face it, any attachment type can and do lie.
"they are trying to reinforce their relationships, not to sabotage them."- this I disagree with. It's been very well documented that both avoidant and anxious are both unstable attachment types and both use tactics to sabotage a relationship. It' just the anxious doesn't "appear" to be sabotaging. Both sabotage relationships and both are unaware of what they are really doing.
Katy, Yes, I would say that most avoidants will not dwell on a break up. I do wonder if there are many avoidants who do not post, because they fear the wrath they will encounter here.
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raco
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Post by raco on Oct 17, 2016 20:39:16 GMT
including one by the author that Kristy recommended, Hal Shorey, which discussed the continuum between avoidant and narcissistic behaviors. Interesting, I have to look into that. I've been thinking about Mary's question. I suspect that the reason that this Dismissive-Avoidant section of the forum contains so many posts by people who have been broken-hearted by avoidants is that the abandoned people are the ones who are still sad and wishful that maybe things might work out. Indeed. Also, avoidants often have control over the fate of a relationship, because they often date anxious-preoccupied people, who will not leave on a whim. So the avoidant can choose to keep the relationship, or to end it. The partner of the avoidant usually doesn't have this choice. He/She is walking on eggshells all the time, and can't know for sure that he/she will be able to make the relationship last long. That's another reason why the non-avoidant is likely to be the most disappointed. He/she really wants a relationship, but unlike the avoidant, doesn't have the possibility to make it last long. It would seem that these dismissive avoidant people are probably much less likely to be pining about the person whom they dumped and are probably not too likely to write posts on a forum about their feelings. Especially since they often try to run away from their own feelings. I gave two examples of avoidants, and both have very strong addictions that they dedicate all their free time to. Addictions are known to be a common thing among people with an avoidant attachment style. It may be a bit over-simplistic, but I think those addictions help them to run away from themselves. They don't want to know who they really are, they don't want to spend time with themselves. So they are very unlikely to write about their feelings on a forum, or to see a therapist. |
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Post by Jaeger on Oct 17, 2016 20:54:34 GMT
Just chiming in here with my own, limited experience.
"Avoidants don't care to control anyone but themselves"
That is actually far from the truth in my dealings with my avoidant ex. 12 years worth of it has given me some insight into this, I feel. She would control what I did and did not voice to her by withholding contact. Any time I would voice a need or suggest a different way to resolve an issue or what she could do differently to improve our relationship, she would greatly increase her emotional and physical distance. In the end, I had been 'trained' not to bring up the things she disliked. It was not an overt form of control, but it's clear to me that that is exactly what it was.
I think the reason why dismissive avoidants are vilified more than their fearful counterparts is that the 'gaslighting' that was mentioned earlier tends to increase when nearing the break up, and the dismissive thrashes about ever more wildly trying to force the break. This usually involves personal attacks and clear and mounting disdain for their partner at the time and even blaming them for the break.
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raco
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Post by raco on Oct 17, 2016 21:30:07 GMT
narcissism is actually positively correlated with both avoidant and anxious attachment types Anxious-preoccupied people rather lean towards codependency (see this article). They are willing to sacrifice themselves for their partner, which is the very opposite of the definition of narcissism. A narcissist think that other people exist to satisfy his needs, not that he exists to satisfy other people's needs. See this video of Ross Rosenberg, a narcissism expert: A Codependent CANNOT Be A Narcissist (sic). I find both narcissists and anxious types to be very controlling. Avoidants don't care to control anyone but themselves, so I guess I disagree a bit on your analysis. And let's face it, any attachment type can and do lie. Yes, both can be controlling and can lie. Yet, narcissism is not an extreme form of the preoccupied attachment style. "they are trying to reinforce their relationships, not to sabotage them."- this I disagree with. It's been very well documented that both avoidant and anxious are both unstable attachment types and both use tactics to sabotage a relationship. It' just the anxious doesn't "appear" to be sabotaging. Both sabotage relationships and both are unaware of what they are really doing. The anxious-preoccupied is preoccupied about his (or her) relationship. He is afraid that he will be dumped, because he thinks he's not good enough for his partner (while the avoidant thinks he is too good for his partner). When his attachment style is triggered, he will try to reinforce the bond between him and his partner, by calling more often, manipulating his partner, trying to make his partner jealous, etc. It can certainly sabotage the relationship, but the goal is to do the opposite, it is to reinforce the relationship. What the avoidant do can certainly sabotage the relationship, but the goal is to sabotage the relationship. The relationship that he pretended to desire in the first place. I do wonder if there are many avoidants who do not post, because they fear the wrath they will encounter here. You encountered praise and thanks much more often that wrath on the forum (if you encountered wrath at all). And maybe much more praise than any other non-avoidant people here. So I don't think that avoidants would see the forum as a bad place. If an avoidant comes here, then he is self-aware. And non-avoidants will think "Wow, if only my partner was like this person!". The reason why there are less avoidants than non-avoidants is logical: avoidants are less prone to talk about their feelings. I don't think it is because they are afraid to be mistreated here. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 22:54:28 GMT
To quote Jeb's article that you reference regarding anxious preoccupied:
"If their relationships last, it is often because they have found a partner whose insecurities dovetail with theirs, who will participate in a dysfunctional game similar to what they were raised with. While the preoccupied have strong feelings and can discuss them when calm, their feelings are centered around their needs for attention and the failures of others to provide it on demand. They commonly blame others for not understanding their feelings and needs while not feeling safe enough in the relationship to describe them openly. They want to merge with their partner, so this type is prone to codependence—a dysfunctional mutual dependence where neither partner matures further. They are profoundly disturbed by and resist even short separations. The single Preoccupied badly wants a partner and spends a lot of time feeling lonely."
The anxious share the trait of needing extreme attention with the narcissist. Everyone has their opinion and even the experts disagree. There was a 1999 study that positively correlated both attachment styles to narcissism.
From a logical stand point, manipulating your partner would not be a positive move to reinforce a bond. This is why I say it's sabotage. The anxious may not consciously want to sabotage, but they are doing it and are unaware. I personally don't think either consciously wants to sabotage the relationship. It's all very subconscious.
I agree that avoidants talk less about feelings. I am not saying I have personally encountered wrath towards me on here, but there are definitely clear negative posts and threads regarding avoidants in general.
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raco
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Post by raco on Oct 18, 2016 1:25:01 GMT
Anxious-preoccupied people indeed seek attention. They're not comfortable being by themselves, they feel a void inside them when they're single. All of this because they do not value themselves. Often, they will choose partners who are likely to reject them, like avoidants. And trying to make the avoidant love them will make them believe that they are solving their problem of not being worthy of love. Of course, their real problem is not not being worthy of love, it is rather their low self-esteem. To make the avoidant love them, they believe that they have to be loved for what they do for their partner, instead of being loved for who they are. Because they don't like who they are, and believe that others won't like who they are too. So it's easier for them to take excessively care of their partner (doing all the chores, focusing on the needs of their partner and making them their priority). Doing so, they can believe that they are doing something that is meaningful (because it's made for someone who, from their point of view, deserves all this), and they don't have to function from their innate self, which is difficult to do for them (because they see themselves as unimportant). Getting attention will make them believe that their unconscious strategy is successful. It will give them a false sense of fulfillment. So even though seeking attention is a trait of narcissism, you can see that everything the anxious-preoccupied is is quite the opposite of narcissism. A narcissist do not think he's unimportant. He will never do all the chores for you. He rather expects that you do them for him. He thinks he is a unique human being that deserves everything. Remember where the word "narcissist" comes from. Narcissus was in love with himself. The anxious-preoccupied has no love for himself. That's why he is trying to get another person who he sees as "more worthy than him" to love him. The narcissist thinks that no one on earth is more worthy than him. Unlike the preoccupied, he believes he should be loved for who he is (ie fantastic, great, unique, etc). But avoidants are not narcissists. They only have lots of things in common with them... including the ability to be extremely rude while thinking they never do anything wrong. For the avoidants that could feel like they're being devalued by what I'm saying, I want to say that I don't believe the "better person" is the one with the least flaws. We don't choose who we are, our environment and genetic predispositions make us who we are. Here is a quote from E. Hemingway that I like a lot (and that no narcissist could understand, by the way): Which means that a murderer who managed to become slightly superior to his former self is more noble than someone who never did anything wrong in his entire life, but never managed to improve a little. There are reasons if the murderer is who he is (like childhood trauma), and there are reasons if the "good guy" is who he is (like good upbringing). And there is nothing noble in being born at the right place at the right time. |
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Post by rosalie on Oct 18, 2016 3:46:08 GMT
Thank you Raco for your list of avoidant behaviors, every one of those describes my ex.
I think one of the main reasons avoidants seem more disliked than anxious types has to do with their limited to non existent ability to have empathy. Anxious types may have similar fears to avoidants but they are equally, if not more, as capable as secures at understanding and interacting with others through an empathic lens. With avoidants they can be incredibly callous in a way that's very off putting and difficult to comprehend for both secures and anxious types.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 6:05:35 GMT
Actually, it is said that both anxious and avoidant have low self esteem underneath it all. I guess a lot of people see them as opposites. I see them as very similar.
"the ability to be extremely rude while thinking they never do anything wrong." - I don't see this as an inherently avoidant trait. There have been posts on here by people reporting that their avoidant states there is "something wrong with them", that it is them (the avoidant) and not the other person. Yes, they do put blame on their partner as a distancing strategy, but to say they think they never do anything wrong is extreme.
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