raco
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Post by raco on Feb 13, 2017 22:40:15 GMT
I also object to associating avoidants with narcissists, unless we want to assume that 30% of the population is narcissistic, which is not the case by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, while all narcissists are avoidant by definition, only a small proportion of people with an avoidant attachment style are narcissistic. I, for one, have said that "avoidants share a lot with narcissists". I don't think some other member have said that avoidants are narcissistic in this thread. Men share a lot with women, it doesn't mean that they are women. So we don't need to assume that 30% of the population is narcissistic to establish a connection between avoidant attachment and narcissism. |
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Post by Jaeger on Feb 13, 2017 23:42:16 GMT
I agree with Raco. I believe in Jeb's book, he also mentions that both are on the same side of the spectrum, with narcissism on the far end and dismissive avoidance a bit further inwards. I have never read the suggestion that 'dismissive avoidance = narcissism' on these boards myself.
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Post by gaynxious on Feb 14, 2017 0:28:07 GMT
I have read that extreme avoidance borders covert narcissism while extreme anxiety borders over narcissism. But in general I have seen more of an association with avoidance and narcissism but never anything equating the two.
My ex and I each thought the other lacked empathy and what I have come to find is that there are two kinds of empathy and sometimes people only think of one. There is the commonly thought of kind where you feel the emotional state of others as you perceive it, the other the the ability to extrapolate how other people will or might feel in response to something. He, the avoidant, had a high degree of the visceral empathy to the point where he couldn't handle being around someone who was crying. He had absolutely no insight into how others might feel because of his actions.
I think I actually have both types of empathy but I have a high degree of imaging how others will feel. And I experience other's feelings as well but I found it so overwhelming growing up I learned to suppress the effect it had on me.
Anxious I feel are likely to have the second kind of empathy because we think a lot about how to make people like us out of fear no one will. This sometimes makes us blind to how others feel at the moment because we are preoccupied with getting our own needs met and this is akin to overt narcissism where you want to be liked but don't see other people as mattering.
Avoidants are more likely to be covert narcissists that don't really think how their actions might affect others because they don't have insight into how other people function emotionally.
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raco
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Post by raco on Feb 14, 2017 10:57:01 GMT
I have read that extreme avoidance borders covert narcissism while extreme anxiety borders over narcissism. I believe you're referring to this study, which mentions covert and overt narcissism based on this study. Though the first study uses the term "attachment anxiety", the second one refers to anxiety according to the Adjective Check List and does not assess attachment issues among its participants. |
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Compassionate Avoidant
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Post by Compassionate Avoidant on Feb 24, 2017 3:47:16 GMT
I disagree with the idea that avoidants can't or don't have empathy. In some cases they can have a lot of empathy-- maybe even more than the typical person-- they just may not be good at showing it. I actually think I'm one of the most empathetic/compassionate people I know, in a way that is so obvious to me that I have historically assumed it was obvious to others even when it clearly was not. I can have a lot of feelings for someone and they can still read me as "cold" (which is probably one of the things that hurts me the most. I wish I knew how to change it).
I think some of this also has to do with communication style and the ways that people have such radically different ways of expressing their thoughts and feelings.
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Compassionate Avoidant
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Post by Compassionate Avoidant on Feb 24, 2017 3:47:58 GMT
I disagree with the idea that avoidants can't or don't have empathy. In some cases they can have a lot of empathy-- maybe even more than the typical person-- they just may not be good at showing it. I actually think I'm one of the most empathetic/compassionate people I know, in a way that is so obvious to me that I have historically assumed it was obvious to others even when in retrospect it clearly was not. I can have a lot of feelings for someone and they can still read me as "cold" (which is probably one of the things that hurts me the most. I wish I knew how to change it).
I think some of this also has to do with communication style and the ways that people have such radically different ways of expressing their thoughts and feelings.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 20, 2017 14:40:04 GMT
To quote Jeb's article that you reference regarding anxious preoccupied: "If their relationships last, it is often because they have found a partner whose insecurities dovetail with theirs, who will participate in a dysfunctional game similar to what they were raised with. While the preoccupied have strong feelings and can discuss them when calm, their feelings are centered around their needs for attention and the failures of others to provide it on demand. They commonly blame others for not understanding their feelings and needs while not feeling safe enough in the relationship to describe them openly. They want to merge with their partner, so this type is prone to codependence—a dysfunctional mutual dependence where neither partner matures further. They are profoundly disturbed by and resist even short separations. The single Preoccupied badly wants a partner and spends a lot of time feeling lonely." The anxious share the trait of needing extreme attention with the narcissist. Everyone has their opinion and even the experts disagree. There was a 1999 study that positively correlated both attachment styles to narcissism. From a logical stand point, manipulating your partner would not be a positive move to reinforce a bond. This is why I say it's sabotage. The anxious may not consciously want to sabotage, but they are doing it and are unaware. I personally don't think either consciously wants to sabotage the relationship. It's all very subconscious. I agree that avoidants talk less about feelings. I am not saying I have personally encountered wrath towards me on here, but there are definitely clear negative posts and threads regarding avoidants in general. Ok...I know this is OLD but I want to address something that I do not agree with as an AP....I do not "blame" my partner....if anything....I tend to blame myself for any issues that arise in the relationship. Now one could argue that taking responsibility for all that goes wrong is a pretty selfish and controlling behavior...but when you are say 3...and you aren't sure why your mom is annoyed with you...it is easy to develop "magical thinking" where everything is your fault. Perhaps there are APs who blame their partner...but that description does not fit with my flavor of AP. If anything...I am hypervigilent to my partner and try very hard to meet their needs....but as Mary pointed out...DAs don't have many needs, but have very firm boundaries whereas APs tend not to have firm boundaries but have many needs. As such...I think we give each other what we expect to get...leaving us both unhappy. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 16:00:48 GMT
To quote Jeb's article that you reference regarding anxious preoccupied: "If their relationships last, it is often because they have found a partner whose insecurities dovetail with theirs, who will participate in a dysfunctional game similar to what they were raised with. While the preoccupied have strong feelings and can discuss them when calm, their feelings are centered around their needs for attention and the failures of others to provide it on demand. They commonly blame others for not understanding their feelings and needs while not feeling safe enough in the relationship to describe them openly. They want to merge with their partner, so this type is prone to codependence—a dysfunctional mutual dependence where neither partner matures further. They are profoundly disturbed by and resist even short separations. The single Preoccupied badly wants a partner and spends a lot of time feeling lonely." The anxious share the trait of needing extreme attention with the narcissist. Everyone has their opinion and even the experts disagree. There was a 1999 study that positively correlated both attachment styles to narcissism. From a logical stand point, manipulating your partner would not be a positive move to reinforce a bond. This is why I say it's sabotage. The anxious may not consciously want to sabotage, but they are doing it and are unaware. I personally don't think either consciously wants to sabotage the relationship. It's all very subconscious. I agree that avoidants talk less about feelings. I am not saying I have personally encountered wrath towards me on here, but there are definitely clear negative posts and threads regarding avoidants in general. Ok...I know this is OLD but I want to address something that I do not agree with as an AP....I do not "blame" my partner....if anything....I tend to blame myself for any issues that arise in the relationship. Now one could argue that taking responsibility for all that goes wrong is a pretty selfish and controlling behavior...but when you are say 3...and you aren't sure why your mom is annoyed with you...it is easy to develop "magical thinking" where everything is your fault. Perhaps there are APs who blame their partner...but that description does not fit with my flavor of AP. If anything...I am hypervigilent to my partner and try very hard to meet their needs....but as Mary pointed out...DAs don't have many needs, but have very firm boundaries whereas APs tend not to have firm boundaries but have many needs. As such...I think we give each other what we expect to get...leaving us both unhappy. tnr9, I completely agree with you. APs and avoidants are all different, each is an individual with different thoughts and behaviors. I had posted this thread mainly because of the many threads that seem to address avoidants as always having xxx traits and not addressing the possibility that these traits/behaviors are not shared by all avoidants and some may be triggered by the AP match. It seems to me, there are quite a few posts with the tone of I was so loving and caring and the avoidant just ghosts/blames me/pulls away, etc. Whereas, there are few avoidants on this forum (I understand that), but I don't see as much negativity from the avoidants who post. Just my opinion, of course. |
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 20, 2017 16:24:08 GMT
Ok...I know this is OLD but I want to address something that I do not agree with as an AP....I do not "blame" my partner....if anything....I tend to blame myself for any issues that arise in the relationship. Now one could argue that taking responsibility for all that goes wrong is a pretty selfish and controlling behavior...but when you are say 3...and you aren't sure why your mom is annoyed with you...it is easy to develop "magical thinking" where everything is your fault. Perhaps there are APs who blame their partner...but that description does not fit with my flavor of AP. If anything...I am hypervigilent to my partner and try very hard to meet their needs....but as Mary pointed out...DAs don't have many needs, but have very firm boundaries whereas APs tend not to have firm boundaries but have many needs. As such...I think we give each other what we expect to get...leaving us both unhappy. tnr9, I completely agree with you. APs and avoidants are all different, each is an individual with different thoughts and behaviors. I had posted this thread mainly because of the many threads that seem to address avoidants as always having xxx traits and not addressing the possibility that these traits/behaviors are not shared by all avoidants and some may be triggered by the AP match. It seems to me, there are quite a few posts with the tone of I was so loving and caring and the avoidant just ghosts/blames me/pulls away, etc. Whereas, there are few avoidants on this forum (I understand that), but I don't see as much negativity from the avoidants who post. Just my opinion, of course. Mary....I for one am so grateful you are here and that you are sharing your unique perspective on your flavor of DA. Believe me...it is doing wonders to repair my relationship with my mom. I agree that DA and Narcs become associated with each other and that is unfortunate and unfair. Narcs have a personality disorder...not just an attachment style. Both my ex Narcs were more DA with me...but I am AP so who knows. I also agree that triggers on both sides need to be considered....if someone was smothered by an overly intrusive parent...then my request for a hug may be triggering in ways that I would not relate to. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 16:57:42 GMT
tnr9, I completely agree with you. APs and avoidants are all different, each is an individual with different thoughts and behaviors. I had posted this thread mainly because of the many threads that seem to address avoidants as always having xxx traits and not addressing the possibility that these traits/behaviors are not shared by all avoidants and some may be triggered by the AP match. It seems to me, there are quite a few posts with the tone of I was so loving and caring and the avoidant just ghosts/blames me/pulls away, etc. Whereas, there are few avoidants on this forum (I understand that), but I don't see as much negativity from the avoidants who post. Just my opinion, of course. Mary....I for one am so grateful you are here and that you are sharing your unique perspective on your flavor of DA. Believe me...it is doing wonders to repair my relationship with my mom. I agree that DA and Narcs become associated with each other and that is unfortunate and unfair. Narcs have a personality disorder...not just an attachment style. Both my ex Narcs were more DA with me...but I am AP so who knows. I also agree that triggers on both sides need to be considered....if someone was smothered by an overly intrusive parent...then my request for a hug may be triggering in ways that I would not relate to. Thank you  and I am grateful you are here as well. You are contributing to the understanding between the 2 styles. I guess I was hoping to foster a more supportive approach to avoidants. |
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 20, 2017 17:23:31 GMT
Mary....I for one am so grateful you are here and that you are sharing your unique perspective on your flavor of DA. Believe me...it is doing wonders to repair my relationship with my mom. I agree that DA and Narcs become associated with each other and that is unfortunate and unfair. Narcs have a personality disorder...not just an attachment style. Both my ex Narcs were more DA with me...but I am AP so who knows. I also agree that triggers on both sides need to be considered....if someone was smothered by an overly intrusive parent...then my request for a hug may be triggering in ways that I would not relate to. Thank you and I am grateful you are here as well. You are contributing to the understanding between the 2 styles. I guess I was hoping to foster a more supportive approach to avoidants. I personally think you are...but I admit I still have a lot to learn. |
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Post by yasmin on Dec 20, 2017 18:50:44 GMT
Maybe because if an avoidant is out there dating people then certain typical avoidant behaviors (rejection, hot and cold, disappearing, criticism, stonewalling, conflict avoidance etc) will cause pain and harm to other people and block the relationship from growing and becoming secure, whereas the anxious person is really only causing pain to themselves? Just a guess there!
My best friend is extremely avoidant, and I love her to pieces and she's unbelievably kind and loving, but she is habitually cruel and abusive to her husband verbally.
She even sees it but she keeps on doing it and he is anxious and constantly worried she will leave him. I'm not saying I don't understand and support her, both sides need support and understanding, but it's her behavior that's most destructive on the surface at least so when this happens I am always on his team and defending him. Not because she's not in pain (she obviously is and has deep problems with intimacy) but because what I am seeing right in front of me is her being abusive.
You're not like a lot of the avoidant people described by people here though Mary - you say you need space and take time to get close to people and you sometimes need to go away etc. and none of those things are actually cruel or really majorly destructive. There's a big difference between people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 22:14:56 GMT
Maybe because if an avoidant is out there dating people then certain typical avoidant behaviors (rejection, hot and cold, disappearing, criticism, stonewalling, conflict avoidance etc) will cause pain and harm to other people and block the relationship from growing and becoming secure, whereas the anxious person is really only causing pain to themselves? Just a guess there! My best friend is extremely avoidant, and I love her to pieces and she's unbelievably kind and loving, but she is habitually cruel and abusive to her husband verbally. She even sees it but she keeps on doing it and he is anxious and constantly worried she will leave him. I'm not saying I don't understand and support her, both sides need support and understanding, but it's her behavior that's most destructive on the surface at least so when this happens I am always on his team and defending him. Not because she's not in pain (she obviously is and has deep problems with intimacy) but because what I am seeing right in front of me is her being abusive. You're not like a lot of the avoidant people described by people here though Mary - you say you need space and take time to get close to people and you sometimes need to go away etc. and none of those things are actually cruel or really majorly destructive. There's a big difference between people. I do understand your point of view and mine is different, due to different life experiences. I am not saying anyone on this board is like what I have encountered,but I have been on the receiving end of an APs wrath. I'm not saying he did it on purpose, but he seemed intent on breaking me and not causing pain to himself at all. I think he was tortured inside as many of us on here are. I don't talk about it much as it is now in the past for me, but I was victim to verbal abuse, so it does happen on both sides. I am not here to say negative things about APs. I'm hoping to promote understanding that both sides have good and bad traits and the harm/destruction is not one sided. |
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Post by yasmin on Dec 20, 2017 22:18:21 GMT
Maybe because if an avoidant is out there dating people then certain typical avoidant behaviors (rejection, hot and cold, disappearing, criticism, stonewalling, conflict avoidance etc) will cause pain and harm to other people and block the relationship from growing and becoming secure, whereas the anxious person is really only causing pain to themselves? Just a guess there! My best friend is extremely avoidant, and I love her to pieces and she's unbelievably kind and loving, but she is habitually cruel and abusive to her husband verbally. She even sees it but she keeps on doing it and he is anxious and constantly worried she will leave him. I'm not saying I don't understand and support her, both sides need support and understanding, but it's her behavior that's most destructive on the surface at least so when this happens I am always on his team and defending him. Not because she's not in pain (she obviously is and has deep problems with intimacy) but because what I am seeing right in front of me is her being abusive. You're not like a lot of the avoidant people described by people here though Mary - you say you need space and take time to get close to people and you sometimes need to go away etc. and none of those things are actually cruel or really majorly destructive. There's a big difference between people. I do understand your point of view and mine is different, due to different life experiences. I am not saying anyone on this board is like what I have encountered,but I have been on the receiving end of an APs wrath. I'm not saying he did it on purpose, but he seemed intent on breaking me and not causing pain to himself at all. I think he was tortured inside as many of us on here are. I don't talk about it much as it is now in the past for me, but I was victim to verbal abuse, so it does happen on both sides. I am not here to say negative things about APs. I'm hoping to promote understanding that both sides have good and bad traits and the harm/destruction is not one sided. I read your post and it did sound like he was very destructive. Going beyond needy and needing reassurance to actually being controlling and suffocating. I could not have lived with those kinds of behaviours for even a week and I am quite good at handling clingy partners. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 22:35:40 GMT
I do understand your point of view and mine is different, due to different life experiences. I am not saying anyone on this board is like what I have encountered,but I have been on the receiving end of an APs wrath. I'm not saying he did it on purpose, but he seemed intent on breaking me and not causing pain to himself at all. I think he was tortured inside as many of us on here are. I don't talk about it much as it is now in the past for me, but I was victim to verbal abuse, so it does happen on both sides. I am not here to say negative things about APs. I'm hoping to promote understanding that both sides have good and bad traits and the harm/destruction is not one sided. I read your post and it did sound like he was very destructive. Going beyond needy and needing reassurance to actually being controlling and suffocating. I could not have lived with those kinds of behaviours for even a week and I am quite good at handling clingy partners. Thank you. I really appreciate your understanding. It goes a long way. |
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and I am grateful you are here as well. You are contributing to the understanding between the 2 styles. I guess I was hoping to foster a more supportive approach to avoidants.