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Post by mrob on Aug 14, 2018 1:14:35 GMT
As others have said here, this is a good opportunity to look inside. Disassemble all the competitive bulldust and actually look at your own motives and the beliefs behind them. Her stuff is about her. Your stuff is about you.
As an FA, I have a keen sense of when I’m being manipulated for other people’s ends. That last interaction would confirm that sense. I find it almost impossible to come back from that level of deactivation. Until I do. Use this time for yourself, or you risk repeating this pattern, as I have.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 14, 2018 1:23:54 GMT
I really don't have anything to add..but I am here for you in this forum...and there are others who are here for you as well..so the thought that you are completely alone is not 100% accurate. Hang in there.
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Post by cspragu on Aug 14, 2018 2:49:02 GMT
As an FA, I have a keen sense of when I’m being manipulated for other people’s ends. That last interaction would confirm that sense. I find it almost impossible to come back from that level of deactivation. Until I do. Use this time for yourself, or you risk repeating this pattern, as I have. Can you expand on and clarify what you said here?
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Post by mrob on Aug 14, 2018 3:32:08 GMT
I responded by saying "stop running away from me...".
You want what you want. Her. You're a self confessed go getter, a competitive bloke.
However, she's in full flight, I'd say frightened out of her wits. Not frightened by you, but activated by her attachment wounding.
The best thing you could do, hard as it is, is to leave her alone. Go on with your own life. She may reappear. In my case, it took me three months, by which time she'd actually felt her pain, recovered and moved on with someone else.
The more important question for you is why you feel the need to pursue someone obviously unavailable. You could go on, saying she's the sick one, but it takes two to tango, as they say.
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Post by cspragu on Aug 14, 2018 10:16:59 GMT
I responded by saying "stop running away from me...". You want what you want. Her. You're a self confessed go getter, a competitive bloke. However, she's in full flight, I'd say frightened out of her wits. Not frightened by you, but activated by her attachment wounding. The best thing you could do, hard as it is, is to leave her alone. Go on with your own life. She may reappear. In my case, it took me three months, by which time she'd actually felt her pain, recovered and moved on with someone else. The more important question for you is why you feel the need to pursue someone obviously unavailable. You could go on, saying she's the sick one, but it takes two to tango, as they say. The reason I continue is because she always comes back. I actually DONT pursue her...ever. She comes to me and when she does I’m there. After we broke up the first time it took about a month and a half to re approach. Then she ran off again after about 2 weeks. Then 3 months later she was back again. She readily admits, when not activated, that she "sabotages" her relationships and runs away. So...based on her own admission and the deactivating strategies I've noticed, I know that's what's happening again. I'm not FA so I can't really understand to what shes feeling. But how many times can you repeat a pattern without knowing what's going on? She knows shes running, I know shes running. So it seemed an appropriate response at 2am when that text woke me up. The last thing I said to her was. "I wish you would trust me. But I know I can’t make you. I'm sorry for the pain you feel and the fear you're always at war with. I'm sorry if I've ever done anything to contribute to that. And I'm sorry you feel like you need to fight this battle alone. You dont....you shouldn't. I love you too". That was sent the same night. Maybe that wasnt an appropriate response. I dont know. But it was genuine. It's my understanding, based on what I've read, that therapists encourage avoidants to lean into the discomfort and try and lean on their partner when they feel the urge to deactivate. That was my hope. Yes it takes two and yes I get anxious after a couple months in a relationship with her. I do have generally high self esteem and an abundance mentality. But the way she conducts her relationships pushes me into anxiety I’m fairly short order. I’m working on that. And I’m generally very cognizant of when I’m feeling that way and try to communicate with her openly and calmly. Rarely does that go well. And I believe that’s our biggest issue. Maybe I’m wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 11:22:17 GMT
it is my opinion (and illustrated by your story so far ) that an anxious preoccupied partner trying to help an avoidant fix their issues (or heal, change, trust) is like a person with no riding experience or understanding about horses on an experiential level, trying to break a wild horse.
it's like you'd like her to calm down so you can stay in the saddle- and every twitch you fall off anyway.
i don't know if you understand your own anxious preoccupied attachment as well as you understand her fearful avoidance (on a textbook level with selective attention to how she might be able to change to meet your needs) but you certainly don't have an experiential grip on it. You are fully acting out.
you are focusing on her in what may not be intentional "control" and it's really dysfunctional. you are trying to get her to be secure so you can be secure. it doesn't work that way but i will only say it once, you are very misguided. you are very much in control mode. you're trying to get her to be what you need her to be. mutual relationships are forged between two people who are stable enough to be healthily independent and come together in healthy interdependence. You are desperate for a partner you can rely on and chose one least likely to be a partner that is reliable. if you look at anything other than your own dysfunction here you are doing what a typical codependent would do and the literature has clear advice about that.
so- we can talk about the story and her attachment style for pages (no one here will engage with that , probably- because people here are for the most part working on themselves after breakups with unavailable partners) BUT-
oh wait. i'm not going to engage about her attachment style because it's you that has a really dysfunctional style of attaching and engaging. just you, you ask? your dysfunction is the only one you need to address because it's as glaring as hers, in the opposite direction.
people here are trying to tell you that, and it can't be overstated. the best thing for her is to find a secure partner. let that sink in. your anxiety is not good for her. i would never have been able to heal with an anxious partner because the triggering is harmful to both.
of course it would be advisable for you to find a secure partner but you aren't attracted, as you said. that's your anxious preoccupation driving. your issues are so big, it's absurd to focus on hers at this point.
i apologize if this sounds harsh , it's really just an expansion of what's already been said, in many polite and sensitive ways, by other posters.
i stand by all the kindness and support i myself have offered , and still say, you are way out of bounds being all up in her attachment style as an insecure person yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 11:49:40 GMT
The reason I continue is because she always comes back. I actually DONT pursue her...ever. She comes to me and when she does I’m there. After we broke up the first time it took about a month and a half to re approach. Then she ran off again after about 2 weeks. Then 3 months later she was back again. She readily admits, when not activated, that she "sabotages" her relationships and runs away. So...based on her own admission and the deactivating strategies I've noticed, I know that's what's happening again. I'm not FA so I can't really understand to what shes feeling. But how many times can you repeat a pattern without knowing what's going on? She knows shes running, I know shes running. So it seemed an appropriate response at 2am when that text woke me up. The last thing I said to her was. "I wish you would trust me. But I know I can’t make you. I'm sorry for the pain you feel and the fear you're always at war with. I'm sorry if I've ever done anything to contribute to that. And I'm sorry you feel like you need to fight this battle alone. You dont....you shouldn't. I love you too". That was sent the same night. Maybe that wasnt an appropriate response. I dont know. But it was genuine. It's my understanding, based on what I've read, that therapists encourage avoidants to lean into the discomfort and try and lean on their partner when they feel the urge to deactivate. That was my hope. Yes it takes two and yes I get anxious after a couple months in a relationship with her. I do have generally high self esteem and an abundance mentality. But the way she conducts her relationships pushes me into anxiety I’m fairly short order. I’m working on that. And I’m generally very cognizant of when I’m feeling that way and try to communicate with her openly and calmly. Rarely does that go well. And I believe that’s our biggest issue. Maybe I’m wrong. Try doing what mrob said. Tell her exactly that "stop running away from me". Give her a clear signal you're there and stand by it. FA attachment is most likely formed when caregivers were very ambivalent and left a child guessing. You're a source of comfort and fear to her. I don't know if it applies to everyone but while AP's behavior (clinging, smothering, yada yada yada) makes me run away, if someone stood their ground and said firmly they want me and they won't leave me(once, without smothering) , it'd calm me. A lot. She misses you so she comes back but you probably don't clam her fears so she runs away again. you misread.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 11:52:28 GMT
Try doing what mrob said. Tell her exactly that "stop running away from me". Give her a clear signal you're there and stand by it. FA attachment is most likely formed when caregivers were very ambivalent and left a child guessing. You're a source of comfort and fear to her. I don't know if it applies to everyone but while AP's behavior (clinging, smothering, yada yada yada) makes me run away, if someone stood their ground and said firmly they want me and they won't leave me(once, without smothering) , it'd calm me. A lot. She misses you so she comes back but you probably don't clam her fears so she runs away again. you misread. ah yeah, sorry, selective reading...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 11:57:23 GMT
😉
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Post by cspragu on Aug 14, 2018 12:34:04 GMT
it is my opinion (and illustrated by your story so far ) that an anxious preoccupied partner trying to help an avoidant fix their issues (or heal, change, trust) is like a person with no riding experience or understanding about horses on an experiential level, trying to break a wild horse. it's like you'd like her to calm down so you can stay in the saddle- and every twitch you fall off anyway. i don't know if you understand your own anxious preoccupied attachment as well as you understand here but you certainly don't have an experiential grip on it. you are focusing on her in what may not be intentional "control" and it's really dysfunctional. you are trying to get her to be secure so you can be secure. it doesn't work that way but i will only say it once, you are very misguided. you are very much in control mode. you're trying to get her to be what you need her to be. mutual relationships are forged between two people who are stable enough to be healthily independent and come together in healthy interdependence. You are desperate for a partner you can rely on and chose one least likely to be a partner that is reliable. if you look at anything other than your own dysfunction here you are doing what a typical codependent would do and the literature has clear advice about that. so- we can talk about the story and her attachment style for pages (no one here will engage with that , probably- because people here are for the most part working on themselves after breakups with unavailable partners) BUT- oh wait. i'm not going to engage about her attachment style because it's you that has a really dysfunctional style of attaching and engaging. just you, you ask? your dysfunction is the only one you need to address because it's as glaring as hers, in the opposite direction. people here are trying to tell you that, and it can't be overstated. the best thing for her is to find a secure partner. let that sink in. your anxiety is not good for her. i would never have been able to heal with an anxious partner because the triggering is harmful to both. of course it's would be advisable for you to find a secure partner but you aren't attracted, as you said. that's your anxious preoccupation driving. your issues are so big, it's absurd to focus on hers at this point. i apologize if this sounds harsh , it's really just an expansion of what's already been said, in many polite and sensitive ways, by other posters. i stand by all the kindness and support i myself have offered , and still say, you are way out of bounds being all up in her attachment style as an insecure person yourself. I read this three times. Then I walked out of my office, climbed in my car, and cried. All I hear when I read this is that I'm bad for her(someone I care deeply about) and that my "dysfunction" likely caused me to ruin the relationship. That she needs a partner who's better than me and that I can't give her what she needs and I'm selfish. That we would never work out and I'm foolish for not moving on and making way for a superior man to come along and give her what I never could. That's an impossible pill for me to swallow at this point. I'm sorry. Of course I'm a little selfish. I've been in an off and on saga with this girl for over a year. Were all a little selfish at times. Even when we aspire not to be. Im selfish because I want her in my life and she continually expresses interest In being there. So lets do this. Maybe she does need a secure partner. But the literature also states that avoidant people tend to push secure people into anxiety over time and that a secure partner is unlikely to stick around for that. Im not AP in every relationship I get into. I realize that doesn't absolve me of the consequences of acting AP when I'm in that state. But the constant ups and downs, inability to communicate in a healthy(calm) manner, extremely inconsiderate comments and actions, intermittent reinforcement, compartmentalization, would drive anyone here bat shit crazy. Shes a good person and she loves me. So I need to understand. Even if thats just for the sake of closure. Yes...I'm trying to gain some control over the situation. What other choice do I have besides be supportive or just ignore her? On Wednesday she said she loved me and in Friday there was "no place in her future" for me. WTF? It all spiraled out of control maddeningly fast. All I can do is try to pump the brakes and slow the descent while also being supportive. Maybe I am terribly misguided and I have no business trying to help her until I'm perfectly healthy myself. If such a state even exists. But I'm the only person shes discussed this with. I'm the only person in her life who sees these behaviors because of the nature of our relationship. I'm the only one who's made the effort to try and figure out what's going on so I feel compelled to try and help her when she reaches out by at least pointing her in the right direction. I'm a detective by profession. I'm pretty good at it because I'm overly analytical. In other words.... I'm a hyper focused problem solver who NEEDS to understand the totality of the situation. All of it. I'm happy to discuss my feelings and submit myself for analysis and criticism. Trust me...nobody is more critical of me than I am. So lay it on me. I have abandonment issues and a desperate need for intimate connection. I'm all ears if anyone has any ideas regarding what to do about that other than therapy. I have an appointment with another therapist on Thursday for EMDR, which I've done in the past. In the meantime, if i don't talk about this I'm gonna lose my shit.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 12:51:51 GMT
don't lose your shit yet- the answers as to what your next steps for healing will come.
taking full responsibility for the failure of a dual dysfunction dynamic is also part of the AP emotional "acting out". there is a thread i posted on somewhere about that, my perspective of it.
but it's critical to understand- the dynamic is harmful both ways. you are re-traumatized by her acting out, she is literally retraumatized by yours.
the nervous system of each party is assailed by the other party.
so really- at some point we all have to use our intelligence to at least rationally acknowledge that blame on one side is absurd. yes, i am talking about intelligence accepting what the literature says , without blotting that out in a fit of raw attachment related emotion. be objective.
i'm not saying that to minimize your attachment triggers or the difficulty of rumination.
but i am throwing some cold water on your face because as a detective, you know that evidence matters.
there is evidence that this is all attachment related dysfunction of which you are only HALF. stop ignoring the evidence, for a start.
i hope it's ok if i give it to you straight like this. i would bother if i didn't think you're open to it but i could be wrong, so correct me if i am.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 13:04:41 GMT
It dosen´t make you a "co-dependent", just because you want to understand something/other peoples behavior. (Stan Tatkin) If she has desorganized attatchment/situational desorganized attatchment, she run away when triggered (triggered could also be because off external stressors in her life) you maybe can try to do this: You can try give your partner contact, if it feels natural to you. But only short! By sms short and loving. By phone short and loving If you meet, short and loving Be clear in your communication. No ambiguities. No long explanations. Brief/short, concistent and loving And yes, you also have to look at yourself. Why do you have to get treated with EMDR? Do you have some desorganized attatchment style/trauma? anne12 , i think it's a little misguided for you, a non-attachment injured individual ( from what i understand?) to minimize the dynamic here between a severely anxious partner (losing his shit) and a very FA partner. have you experienced this yourself or are you just an observer? There is something to actually experiencing insecure attachment when advising someone who is losing their shit over an unavailable partner. not that your input isn't appreciated but i am seeing your lack of understanding in this post. what he is doing is very codependent- he is not a secure person trying to understand, he is a VERY insecure person trying to manage another person's insecurity, in order to manage his own.
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Post by cspragu on Aug 14, 2018 13:34:34 GMT
At the expense of sharing more overly dramatic and childish behavior with you. Let me give you an idea of what I'm dealing with here. She just posted this song to Instagram about 30 minutes ago. Before you say it...yes, I'm subjecting myself to this shit by not blocking her(considering it now though). But come on...this is hurtful. The song is titled "just a phase". Here are the lyrics-
LYRICS
"I’m a blackjack label You’re a classic glass of red So girl watcha doing here tonight Messing up my bed
You don’t really love me You just think that you do I’m just a phase you’re going through
Someday soon baby You’re gonna wake up and see There ain’t never gonna be A forever for you and me
Someday soon baby You’re gonna look back and smile That you got hooked on a guy like me For a little while
'Cause I’m a Friday night You’re a Sunday afternoon I’m a reckless rock’n’roll And you’re a nice slow dance to a midnight tune
Deep in your heart I know you know I ain’t right for you I’m just a phase you’re going through
Yeah
Someday soon baby You’re gonna wake up and see There ain’t never gonna be a forever for you and me, yeah
Someday soon baby You’re gonna look back and smile That you got hooked on a guy like me For a little while
Guess I might be crazy Lovin’ like Baby until the last kiss from your lips tells me goodbye I’m gonna lay right here And pretend that it ain’t true I’m just a phase you’re going through
Yeah, I’m just a phase You’re going through, hmm
Girl I’m just a phase You’re going through"
....really? Not only is this ridiculous. But its ambiguous as well. Which one of us is just a phase? Am I the phase? Is she the phase? Who thinks they love the other person but doesn't really(extremely hurtful)? This kind of "communication" is a perfect example of what I was referring to. If you spend much time around this then anxiety isnt an if, it's a when.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 13:35:42 GMT
Juniper...".a non-attachment injured individual .." - what makes you think this? What is your definition of a co-dependent? I am not suggesting, that the poster should stay with this girl at all, only suggesting on how to communicate with her if possible at all....in a non controling way. anne- you do not reveal your story here beyond posting self help, except for an occasional reference to something that does not illuminate your particular attachment style. so forgive any misunderstanding of mine, but i have little recognition from you yourself about any attachment wounding. everyone else here is pretty up front about what they struggle with. i only know you as a poster of self help information. and here is a fairly common definition of codependency. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 13:38:29 GMT
At the expense of sharing more overly dramatic and childish behavior with you. Let me give you an idea of what I'm dealing with here. She just posted this song to Instagram about 30 minutes ago. Before you say it...yes, I'm subjecting myself to this shit by not blocking her(considering it now though). But come on...this is hurtful. The song is titled "just a phase". Here are the lyrics- LYRICS "I’m a blackjack label You’re a classic glass of red So girl watcha doing here tonight Messing up my bed You don’t really love me You just think that you do I’m just a phase you’re going through Someday soon baby You’re gonna wake up and see There ain’t never gonna be A forever for you and me Someday soon baby You’re gonna look back and smile That you got hooked on a guy like me For a little while 'Cause I’m a Friday night You’re a Sunday afternoon I’m a reckless rock’n’roll And you’re a nice slow dance to a midnight tune Deep in your heart I know you know I ain’t right for you I’m just a phase you’re going through Yeah Someday soon baby You’re gonna wake up and see There ain’t never gonna be a forever for you and me, yeah Someday soon baby You’re gonna look back and smile That you got hooked on a guy like me For a little while Guess I might be crazy Lovin’ like Baby until the last kiss from your lips tells me goodbye I’m gonna lay right here And pretend that it ain’t true I’m just a phase you’re going through Yeah, I’m just a phase You’re going through, hmm Girl I’m just a phase You’re going through" ....really? Not only is this ridiculous. But its ambiguous as well. Which one of us is just a phase? Am I the phase? Is she the phase? Who thinks they love the other person but doesn't really(extremely hurtful)? This kind if "communication" is a perfect example if what I was referring to. Anxiety isnt an if, it's a when. and this is the woman you want more than anything. so that's where your trap is- wanting someone who is behaving ridiculously, know what i mean? it isn't just you- and it isn't just her. i've got to get to the gym, but i hope your day gives you some answers, it's very difficult stuff! take care!
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