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Post by leavethelighton on Sept 16, 2018 0:23:16 GMT
In a lot of threads here people like to differentiate DA and FA partly on whether one has high self-esteem or low self-esteem
This perplexes me a bit. Can someone's self-esteem be more variable than that, particularly in different domains of life?
Like I am not sure whether I have high or low self esteem because in some areas of life it is low, and in other areas high. More specifically, when it comes to things like my looks, ability to flirt, ability to attract people, desireability, etc., mine was always low. But when it comes to things like school, the intellect, work ethic, morality, ability to move around in the world independently, it's always been high.
Though of course as I've aged and matured I'm able to see the ways that hierarchies don't really exist or don't have to-- that everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, that nobody is really all that inherently better than anyone else.
Anyway, I'm not sure I agree that one's self esteem is just high or low, necessarily.
Also in terms of people who may seem to have high self esteem, absent of personality disorders, how do you know if people actually do, or if they're posturing to protect themselves, and in that sense how is it measureable in the realm of psychology?
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 16, 2018 4:47:25 GMT
In social-science research, self-esteem is measured using tools that ask the respondents to reflect on their feelings. So it's subjective and is a matter of what someone is willing/able to admit. These tests give general statements and get people to answer using a scale as to whether they agree/disagree. They give an answer as to whether someone's self-esteem is generally relatively low or generally relatively high. Of course someone can have low self-esteem in some areas and not all. I would think that since attachment style has to do with relationships, that self-esteem in the areas that affect relationships most would be the most relevant.
People with insecure attachment have low self-certainty and lack self-concept clarity. People with secure attachment have higher self-esteem, which results in greater clarity of self-concept.
It is theorized that DA people can have a "secret" low self-esteem or feeling of inferiority, but it may not be conscious and could be buried very deep down, but you're right, it seems impossible to know or measure that. I'm not even sure why it is commonly accepted that the outwardly high self-esteem seen in grandiose narcissists is fake, I've known a few and they seem like they would never admit to anyone that they secretly feel inferior, even though their behavior seems transparent to me.
Another way to think about the difference between DA and FA is that when asked, DA has a generally positive view of self and FA has a generally negative view of self. Is that a clearer way to understand it than using the terms high/low self-esteem?
If someone is able to easily admit they generally have low self-esteem or view themselves negatively, or are really confused about it, then I would hazard a guess that they most likely aren't DA. For example, I know a DA who can state that he doesn't fit societal beauty ideals, but this doesn't appear to make him self-conscious or anxious or worry that he is unworthy of a partner. It's more like he's just stating a fact about himself that isn't distressing to him and he doesn't base his self-worth on it. If asked how his self-esteem is he will say it's good.
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 16, 2018 8:03:54 GMT
If a DA admits he doesn't fit beauty ideals, the brutal conclusion is that he may not attract a partner he desires. Not a fun conclusion even for DA, but for DA the propect of still being single at 70 is not catastrophic. He will think "Oh well, if it is unlikely I will have a rewarding love life, let me slay the business world and have interesting hobbies to make my life worth living."
FA in the same position would think "Oh f*ck! I'd be such a loser being forever alone...Let me get someone to desire me to prove I am worthy." Even if his business life is good, even if he has fun hobbies. Those things will not make him feel confident unless they add to his allure as a partner.
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 17, 2018 19:17:06 GMT
If a DA admits he doesn't fit beauty ideals, the brutal conclusion is that he may not attract a partner he desires. Not a fun conclusion even for DA, but for DA the propect of still being single at 70 is not catastrophic. He will think "Oh well, if it is unlikely I will have a rewarding love life, let me slay the business world and have interesting hobbies to make my life worth living." FA in the same position would think "Oh f*ck! I'd be such a loser being forever alone...Let me get someone to desire me to prove I am worthy." Even if his business life is good, even if he has fun hobbies. Those things will not make him feel confident unless they add to his allure as a partner. Totally. And then the FA might meet someone really good-looking who is interested in him, constantly think she will one day wake up and realize she can get someone hotter, break up with her, get a new haircut and buy a gym pass but barely use it. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Sept 20, 2018 0:11:05 GMT
What would an AP think in this scenario?
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 20, 2018 1:05:07 GMT
leavethelightonI'm curious to see what goldilocks will say, but I'd say... AP thinks, "I wonder if my looks are why my girlfriend has been texting me less?" goes and gets the same haircut as her ex, takes the most flattering gym selfie he can, asks his female friend if it's a good photo, texts it to his girlfriend and obsessively checks his phone for a reply.
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 20, 2018 6:15:18 GMT
LOL and open 12 topics on this forum on why looks are all that matters, why looks are a big fat trap, why his girlfriend did not reply yet and if she is cheating on him with his personal trainer.
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 20, 2018 11:20:49 GMT
AP thinks, "I wonder if my looks are why my girlfriend has been texting me less?" goes and gets the same haircut as her ex, takes the most flattering gym selfie he can, asks his female friend if it's a good photo, texts it to his girlfriend and obsessively checks his phone for a reply. I never focused on my looks..it was always my behavior...other APs might respond as you have mentioned above...but that is not how my flavor of AP is expressed. AP is looking for validation of "I am ok" "This fear and anxiety I feel that you don't fully accept and love me for who I am is a lie"..so perhaps getting a new haircut would be an outward reaction to that fear..along with our society's obsession with beauty...but at the core, the validation requests come from wanting to be accepted for who we are. But yes....there is absolutely a ticking time bomb of insecurity that reacts to text message response time and likes on Facebook. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 14:47:50 GMT
I think that self esteem is a general sense of how you feel about yourself but that there is or can be variation in different areas of your life. I also think it's a matter of how does it effect the person? Logically I am sure mine is lower because I do have insecure attachment, but I don't see it. I know I have flaws, but I feel happy, I like myself and I don't beat myself up. I think it gets complicated because you don't know what a person is thinking. They can appear confident outwardly but miserable behind closed doors. There are people that are miserable and they vocalize it. There are people that appear confident and they actually are.
One measure though I have seen time and time again is someone who appears confident, but feels the need to put others down consistently. That is a sure sign to me that they are not confident at all.
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 20, 2018 18:46:39 GMT
AP thinks, "I wonder if my looks are why my girlfriend has been texting me less?" goes and gets the same haircut as her ex, takes the most flattering gym selfie he can, asks his female friend if it's a good photo, texts it to his girlfriend and obsessively checks his phone for a reply. I never focused on my looks..it was always my behavior...other APs might respond as you have mentioned above...but that is not how my flavor of AP is expressed. AP is looking for validation of "I am ok" "This fear and anxiety I feel that you don't fully accept and love me for who I am is a lie"..so perhaps getting a new haircut would be an outward reaction to that fear..along with our society's obsession with beauty...but at the core, the validation requests come from wanting to be accepted for who we are. But yes....there is absolutely a ticking time bomb of insecurity that reacts to text message response time and likes on Facebook. The scenario I was thinking of would be when (as goldlilocks outlined) the person thinks they don't fit societal standards of beauty so concludes they may not get a/the partner they desire, and how each attachment style might react to this realization. If you don't feel insecure about your looks then you might not need validation about your looks. Do you feel good about your looks? Or just not place importance on looks? It's interesting though, even my very AP friend who doesn't outwardly seem to have very much insecurity about her looks will do things like send a lot of selfies to people when she wants attention. Personally I've sometimes sent selfies when I was not feeling insecure about my looks but more thinking, "I feel insecure about something in this relationship, I know that he thinks I'm good-looking so maybe seeing a photo of me will remind him that he is into me." Of course everyone is different as people are people and complex and not defined by their prevailing attachment type, but it can be fun and funny to speculate on how a very stereotypical DA/FA/AP person would behave in a particular situation. |
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 21, 2018 18:32:25 GMT
I never focused on my looks..it was always my behavior...other APs might respond as you have mentioned above...but that is not how my flavor of AP is expressed. AP is looking for validation of "I am ok" "This fear and anxiety I feel that you don't fully accept and love me for who I am is a lie"..so perhaps getting a new haircut would be an outward reaction to that fear..along with our society's obsession with beauty...but at the core, the validation requests come from wanting to be accepted for who we are. But yes....there is absolutely a ticking time bomb of insecurity that reacts to text message response time and likes on Facebook. The scenario I was thinking of would be when (as goldlilocks outlined) the person thinks they don't fit societal standards of beauty so concludes they may not get a/the partner they desire, and how each attachment style might react to this realization. If you don't feel insecure about your looks then you might not need validation about your looks. Do you feel good about your looks? Or just not place importance on looks? It's interesting though, even my very AP friend who doesn't outwardly seem to have very much insecurity about her looks will do things like send a lot of selfies to people when she wants attention. Personally I've sometimes sent selfies when I was not feeling insecure about my looks but more thinking, "I feel insecure about something in this relationship, I know that he thinks I'm good-looking so maybe seeing a photo of me will remind him that he is into me." Of course everyone is different as people are people and complex and not defined by their prevailing attachment type, but it can be fun and funny to speculate on how a very stereotypical DA/FA/AP person would behave in a particular situation. I don't put a ton of value on looks...I am pretty average and I have been told that I tend to not go for popular guys anyway. What I typically fear is someone having a better match behaviorally...like they will be more chill and calm....that is because I was often told that I was a "bother" to my parents..too emotional, too selfish, not behaving lady like, childish etc. So I may not be typical of APs. |
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Post by hannah on Sept 22, 2018 11:30:48 GMT
If a DA admits he doesn't fit beauty ideals, the brutal conclusion is that he may not attract a partner he desires. Not a fun conclusion even for DA, but for DA the propect of still being single at 70 is not catastrophic. He will think "Oh well, if it is unlikely I will have a rewarding love life, let me slay the business world and have interesting hobbies to make my life worth living." FA in the same position would think "Oh f*ck! I'd be such a loser being forever alone...Let me get someone to desire me to prove I am worthy." Even if his business life is good, even if he has fun hobbies. Those things will not make him feel confident unless they add to his allure as a partner. Totally. And then the FA might meet someone really good-looking who is interested in him, constantly think she will one day wake up and realize she can get someone hotter, break up with her, get a new haircut and buy a gym pass but barely use it. I'm pretty sur I'm FA and I can relate a bit xD Constantly thinking I could be dumped for someone hotter and overfocus on my looks and yeah, I'm ashamed to confess I even tried the new haircut once with my ex ! About looks in general I automatically friendzone in my mind the guys who fit the beauty's standards thinking that anyway they will never desire me and I convince myself that they are not my type anyway. And when I date someone, I go back and forth from the anxiety-jealous mode "he is too hot to me, I'll loose him when he realizes that" to the avoidant-fault-finding mode "I'm ashamed to be with a so ugly guy, look at this nose !". But I'm not sur it's a FA thing ? It's really new to me, at my early 30s now, to begin to be gentle with the image I see on the mirror and with my personality, my flaws... In my case I do think I have low self-steem in general, in all domains of life. But the insecurity is not always there, I begin to feel more self-confident in my professional and relational skills and my looks but sometimes I have serious doubts about my self-worth. By the way, it's a good step for me to write this first reply on the forum as english is not my first langage. I've been reading you guys since many months now and I was constantly telling me that it would be hard to express myself so why to try? |
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Post by epicgum on Sept 22, 2018 17:55:26 GMT
Totally. And then the FA might meet someone really good-looking who is interested in him, constantly think she will one day wake up and realize she can get someone hotter, break up with her, get a new haircut and buy a gym pass but barely use it. I'm pretty sur I'm FA and I can relate a bit xD Constantly thinking I could be dumped for someone hotter and overfocus on my looks and yeah, I'm ashamed to confess I even tried the new haircut once with my ex ! About looks in general I automatically friendzone in my mind the guys who fit the beauty's standards thinking that anyway they will never desire me and I convince myself that they are not my type anyway. And when I date someone, I go back and forth from the anxiety-jealous mode "he is too hot to me, I'll loose him when he realizes that" to the avoidant-fault-finding mode "I'm ashamed to be with a so ugly guy, look at this nose !". But I'm not sur it's a FA thing ? It's really new to me, at my early 30s now, to begin to be gentle with the image I see on the mirror and with my personality, my flaws... In my case I do think I have low self-steem in general, in all domains of life. But the insecurity is not always there, I begin to feel more self-confident in my professional and relational skills and my looks but sometimes I have serious doubts about my self-worth. By the way, it's a good step for me to write this first reply on the forum as english is not my first langage. I've been reading you guys since many months now and I was constantly telling me that it would be hard to express myself so why to try? I can totally relate to the "shes so much better than me and is going to leave me, no wait shes so beneath me/toxic and I need to run away and find someone better" I think the lesson in this is that comparisons are really really bad. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 18:27:25 GMT
As an AP in relationships I have always done this.
Deffo not an FA thing only, more like a human thing.
I always fault find really badly.
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Post by ocarina on Sept 22, 2018 19:35:38 GMT
I think self esteem is a dangerous concept - self acceptance is much more healthy. We try to build self esteem to make ourselves feel better and we inherently begin to associate feeling good with achieving, with being something maybe a certain weight, a certain look or whatever. We do it with our kids too - praising achievements and inadvertently teaching them they are only worth love when they've done something commendable.
From what I can see - all insecure attachments stem from having disordered self esteem whether it's overt or covert. So the classic DA steers clear of emotional attachment because their self esteem or positive self image is dependent on being self reliant and self contained. The AP maybe has self esteem relying on others to show "love" in order to make them feel good. The FA swings between the two.
Surely the healthy position is a realistic acceptance that we are all flawed, no body is perfect, nobody is more worthy than another person and we are all deserving of love and happiness regardless of how we look or what we've achieved. This requires learning to tolerate and indeed compassionately embrace, feeling bad or less than. Funny thing is that how we feel about ourselves is reflected in how we judge others - so self compassion is certainly something worth developing whatever attachment style.
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