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Post by alexandra on Dec 1, 2018 20:59:06 GMT
Avoidants are not nuts - any more than APs are - they behave in this way for reasons that at some point in their lives made absolute sense. What is nuts is to assume you can change them by being enough - or by loving them enough, or playing games of some sort. They change only if and when they are ready and this is something over which you have no control. What's also nuts is to join them in the dance - it takes two. I am a DA btw.
Thank you. rach02, I say this a lot. Insecure attachment isn't nuts or even irrational. It's a defense mechanism that made sense when it developed, rendered out of context in adult romantic relationships. But still up to the person who has it to recognize that, take responsibility, stand up for themselves, and try to heal. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 21:01:46 GMT
I'm FA and I squirm HARD when someone emotionally available is too affectionate to me... I feel my skin literally crawl. It's like holding my hand over a hot stove. If it helps, I just know I'm feeling so much distress being that close that I feel like I'm disrespecting my own boundaries in a really serious way, it feels endangering. There is no logic to it other than that the experience in itself feels incredibly real and urgent that I need to find equilibrium by having some distance. Maybe I just wasn't that emotionally attracted to the guy I'm talking about, but that's how it can feel.
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Post by ocarina on Dec 1, 2018 21:09:37 GMT
Avoidants are not nuts - any more than APs are - they behave in this way for reasons that at some point in their lives made absolute sense. What is nuts is to assume you can change them by being enough - or by loving them enough, or playing games of some sort. They change only if and when they are ready and this is something over which you have no control. What's also nuts is to join them in the dance - it takes two. I am a DA btw.
Thank you. rach02 , I say this a lot. Insecure attachment isn't nuts or even irrational. It's a defense mechanism that made sense when it developed, rendered out of context in adult romantic relationships. But still up to the person who has it to recognize that, take responsibility, stand up for themselves, and try to heal. In defence of rach02 's ex partner - whilst it is her responsibility to heal - very often in these kind of narratives the partner has explicitly stated they are not good at relationships, been cautious, hesitant all along and then gets shot down when they make a rapid exit. As partners of avoidants it is our job to listen to what they say and hear it fully - not read into it what we'd like to hear and carry on hoping regardless of all the signs.
Easier said than done but having been on both sides of the fence it's an important point - really listen and believe. Take responsibility for yourself first and allow others to be responsible for themselves - you cannot dictate their process for them.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 1, 2018 21:10:14 GMT
bloom, I actually doubt your experience had to do with not being emotionally attracted enough. You were triggered. This sounds a lot like how my FA ex got around me when deactivating, and he was the first to admit it had zero to do with our emotional connection (one of the strongest he's ever had) and how frustrated he was that it seemed totally irrational. But he would freeze and then run, so we could never properly talk about it. He felt like he was trying to work on us by seeing if he could overcome the discomfort and sit through it, and that didn't work. I don't believe it was an issue with our connection or that it was irrational -- but the underlying reasons for it, the ones from deep in the time his FA style developed, are not consciously known to him. So it just seemed "daunting," and we could not overcome it. This is why relying on triggers to influence someone or thinking you can change a partner fails. The issues causing the behavior are usually so deep, and about something else, and the insecure partner has to be ready to face it to even discover it. Which is also why the OP may find it more fruitful to focus on what lies beneath their AP style first before considering how to win over the avoidant ex.
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Post by sissyk on Dec 1, 2018 21:22:54 GMT
These are all very helpful takes on the FA perspective. Thank you! It sounds like it can be truly painful--flight or fight.
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Post by leavethelighton on Dec 2, 2018 0:27:57 GMT
There's a difference between doing something you wish for like asking her out for a drink for a specific un-vague date and time (which would be a potentially authentic thing to do)... and to try to trigger her fear of abandonment in an attempt to make her return. Why should she want to be with someone who would purposely trigger her fear of abandonment?
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Post by epicgum on Dec 2, 2018 1:04:29 GMT
There's a difference between doing something you wish for like asking her out for a drink for a specific un-vague date and time (which would be a potentially authentic thing to do)... and to try to trigger her fear of abandonment in an attempt to make her return. Why should she want to be with someone who would purposely trigger her fear of abandonment? Ill say this, that there was definitely a large block of time in my life personally (reflecting my experiences) that i had internalized the belief that, "a woman will only like you if she thinks you have options" which, post attachment theory, i see basically means "i need to continually trigger someone's attachment wounds in order for them to love me". Obviously thats terrible for both parties, as one partner is continually wounded, and the other partner lives a lie, afraid of revealing any vulnerabilities and projecting a false face. But...that was the truth as I saw it at the time based on my prior romantic experiences....and given the number of insecure people out there, there's some truth to it in practice in the short term...even if that logic is going to be super destructive to trust and intimacy in the long term. My 2 cents in regards to that note. |
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Post by 8675309 on Dec 2, 2018 1:19:56 GMT
Dont play games!!
If you cannot not play these games, try to trigger, etc, walk away! Find someone that is available.
The game plays will come back to you 10 fold. Its mean to trigger someone for your own agenda.
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Post by epicgum on Dec 2, 2018 1:20:21 GMT
I'm one of these "nuts" fyi and i can totally sympathize with her squirmy/panic during convos like this. Maybe she is more FA... epicgum...You do not strike me as a nut  If I might ask to further my own understanding--as an FA what makes you very uncomfortable with relationship talk (as my squirming DA/FA? guy seemed). Do you feel you are being judged? Asked to give too much? Feel like an impostor as you should care about such but don't? When I was talking to my DAFA, I emphasized I was coming from a place of thinking he was great, I used "I" words, resisted going on the defensive myself and in general was on my best behavior and he still seemed defensive/threatened by my wanting to address such things directly..... Thanks sissyk  no nuts for me. I said this in ankther thread, but i think it is a combination fesr of enmeshment and abandonment. Basically I was afraid that I couldn't return these feelings (even though...obviously, i did have some feelings) and I was afraid i would be "found out" and then abandoned or "forced" closer than i wanted to be and feel overwhelmed and trapped. So, for me the fight/flight/freeze response ends in "freeze" and a terrified "i don't know!" and a subconscious "why are you doing this to me?  ?" and a desire to move past the troubling emotion and forget about it as fast as possible. |
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Dec 2, 2018 15:19:22 GMT
This post makes me so sad. Because I remember being in this spot where I felt like I had to scheme and plot and play games to get a person I loved to be in the kind of relationship I wanted, to love me the way I loved him. It was so manipulative and I was so unhappy. I just wanted to be with him but I couldn’t do it on the terms he was happy with but I couldn’t let him go either. I guess he couldn’t either. It was hard for either of us to let the other go and in the end- it went to some really ugly places and we never were able to come back from the things either of us did.
We just hurt each other. My manipulations hurt him and only drove him away. An avoidant will see these as a covert attempt to control them. And when I was able to be honest with myself- I could admit that is exactly what that was for me. A DA and maybe and avoidant FA will feel that- they value their independence and I think are looking for signs of threats to it in the same way an AP is extra sensitive to signs of abandonment or distancing. It will only push them away harder.
For me- I wish I could have seen how hurtful I was being to him. I blamed him for “making me act that way” by pushing me away. That’s not taking any accountability though. I had the choice to do different- to identify what I wanted, ask for it and leave when he said he didn’t want that. Instead we both became versions of ourselves we weren’t proud of.
I hope you can hold your standards and boundaries for what you need before it deteiorates to anyone acting in ways you can’t take back. If she likes you and had feelings for you but doesn’t want a serious and committed relationship with you- then that’s what she wants. There isn’t anything wrong with that other than you want something else. It maybe that she is afraid of intimacy (most of us here are in different ways) and that she isn’t ready to address that. You can’t make her- she has to want to. You can ask. And then you can leave.
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Post by ocarina on Dec 2, 2018 21:19:01 GMT
This post makes me so sad. Because I remember being in this spot where I felt like I had to scheme and plot and play games to get a person I loved to be in the kind of relationship I wanted, to love me the way I loved him. It was so manipulative and I was so unhappy. I just wanted to be with him but I couldn’t do it on the terms he was happy with but I couldn’t let him go either. I guess he couldn’t either. It was hard for either of us to let the other go and in the end- it went to some really ugly places and we never were able to come back from the things either of us did. We just hurt each other. My manipulations hurt him and only drove him away. An avoidant will see these as a covert attempt to control them. And when I was able to be honest with myself- I could admit that is exactly what that was for me. A DA and maybe and avoidant FA will feel that- they value their independence and I think are looking for signs of threats to it in the same way an AP is extra sensitive to signs of abandonment or distancing. It will only push them away harder. For me- I wish I could have seen how hurtful I was being to him. I blamed him for “making me act that way” by pushing me away. That’s not taking any accountability though. I had the choice to do different- to identify what I wanted, ask for it and leave when he said he didn’t want that. Instead we both became versions of ourselves we weren’t proud of. I hope you can hold your standards and boundaries for what you need before it deteiorates to anyone acting in ways you can’t take back. If she likes you and had feelings for you but doesn’t want a serious and committed relationship with you- then that’s what she wants. There isn’t anything wrong with that other than you want something else. It maybe that she is afraid of intimacy (most of us here are in different ways) and that she isn’t ready to address that. You can’t make her- she has to want to. You can ask. And then you can leave. Perfectly stated lilos |
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Post by rach02 on Dec 3, 2018 5:53:13 GMT
WE WENT OUT TONIGHT!
I asked her out and she finally agreed (after my 4th or so try).
We went to a bar, had drinks, good conversation, ordered food. It was just like when we dated. There was zero talk about the break-up. We talked for 2 hours. She shared her food with me. She laughed and touched my shoulder often. We caught up on everything. God, I miss her. I love this woman. I greeted her with a kiss, and we kissed good bye. She said "Let's do this again". YES! Though, I'm not sure if I'm friend-zoned.
I noticed de-activating strategies by her, which triggered my insecurity:
1) She told me that last weekend she had two male friends over to watch a game of hockey. She was vague about who they were, but I never asked. In all our time together she never had male friends over. Her last ex liked hockey, so that made me feel suspicious. Why would she tell me about having male friends over at her home? Intentionally making me feel jealous. Pushing me back. Deactivating?
2) She told me that during a work conference she drank way too much. She got drunk. This is entirely out of character for her. She must have been in pain from our breakup and this was her way of telling me that she's been in pain. She then told me that a male friend escorted her back to her hotel room and tucked her in. Though she comforted me by telling me he left afterwards.
We texted when I got home. For the first time in a long time she made herself vulnerable. After some friendly messages back and forth she texted: "What happens when you sleep alone?". This surprised the hell out of me. Never is she this vulnerable and asking intimate details about my state of mind. She was gauging whether I'm in pain. I told her that I struggle sometimes. Then she admitted that she too struggles to sleep sometimes. We texted our good nights.
I'm going to take it slow from here, as slow as she wants. I love her, I really do and I'm going to be with her once again. The next time we meet I'm going to escalate with more touch and intimacy. What do you guys think?
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Post by alexandra on Dec 3, 2018 8:42:04 GMT
Just be careful with your heart. A lot of us have posted stories of being on and off, prolonging relationships that should have ended. Not because we didn't love our partners enough or correctly, but because they weren't ready (and sometimes, neither were we).
I've stayed in touch with some of my insecure ex-partners, for years, and they didn't get it together, stop struggling, or settle down... not for me or for anyone else, including themselves. I can think of one lovely avoidant man who became one of my close friends after we dated briefly 8 or 10 years ago, and he's single now and got the same problems he always did. A couple others, who are still my friends but less inherently lovely people, same story.
Even me. When I finally started to truly make progress healing my AP, which was a year after a breakup, the first thing I did when I was ready to get real and vulnerable and committed was go right back to my ex I loved. I'd dated and been with other people in that year, but he was still in my heart. We tried again for a while but he had not done the same work on his FA, so it just prolonged the grief. I'm through with trying to make that work, but if it was ever going to, he'd come back to me because he was ready and not the other way around (not something I expect to ever happen).
I wish you luck, and I know you love her and want to remain optimistic, but nothing has changed yet. Not your AP, not her avoidance, so if you start to get stuck in the push/pull cycle again, you're only going to be able to break it by focusing on working on yourself and not focusing on her. If you're lucky, she'll decide on her own that she's ready to face her problems and stand along with you. But don't stress too much about trying to be perfect until then, because there is no perfect when the problem isn't you. You'll inevitably trigger her somehow, because that's the nature of insecure attachment, and you have to explore your own AP side of things so you don't get triggered too if you want to make it work and not drive yourself crazy in the process.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 3, 2018 13:14:38 GMT
WE WENT OUT TONIGHT!I asked her out and she finally agreed (after my 4th or so try). We went to a bar, had drinks, good conversation, ordered food. It was just like when we dated. There was zero talk about the break-up. We talked for 2 hours. She shared her food with me. She laughed and touched my shoulder often. We caught up on everything. God, I miss her. I love this woman. I greeted her with a kiss, and we kissed good bye. She said "Let's do this again". YES! Though, I'm not sure if I'm friend-zoned. I noticed de-activating strategies by her, which triggered my insecurity: 1) She told me that last weekend she had two male friends over to watch a game of hockey. She was vague about who they were, but I never asked. In all our time together she never had male friends over. Her last ex liked hockey, so that made me feel suspicious. Why would she tell me about having male friends over at her home? Intentionally making me feel jealous. Pushing me back. Deactivating? 2) She told me that during a work conference she drank way too much. She got drunk. This is entirely out of character for her. She must have been in pain from our breakup and this was her way of telling me that she's been in pain. She then told me that a male friend escorted her back to her hotel room and tucked her in. Though she comforted me by telling me he left afterwards. We texted when I got home. For the first time in a long time she made herself vulnerable. After some friendly messages back and forth she texted: "What happens when you sleep alone?". This surprised the hell out of me. Never is she this vulnerable and asking intimate details about my state of mind. She was gauging whether I'm in pain. I told her that I struggle sometimes. Then she admitted that she too struggles to sleep sometimes. We texted our good nights. I'm going to take it slow from here, as slow as she wants. I love her, I really do and I'm going to be with her once again. The next time we meet I'm going to escalate with more touch and intimacy. What do you guys think? I have to second what Alexandia said...be careful with your heart....try not to read into things too much (very, very, very hard from an AP perspective). About 8 months after the break up, B came over to "hang out". I was excited, played it chill...we hugged, we watched Netflix, ordered dinner...we basically acted like we did when we dated...and I was so hopeful. B is honest to a fault...so a couple months later, he apologized.....that he felt comfortable with me but meant to keep it to friends between us. She may view you as a friend at this point and friends do share about their lives in a casual way. I see her sharing about the 2 guys coming to see watch a game with her as casual banter. B did it too....I had to specifically ask him not to share about hanging out with other girls (even if they are just friends) because I still have feelings for him...not because there is anything wrong in him wanting to share that. Remember that she is coming at this after breaking up with you...so none of what she is saying may have anything to do with you....she likely doesn't know how painful this is given your focus on her. The comments around getting drunk at a conference, again, I see that as friendly banter...it does show that she trusts you to share that...probably feels comfortable around you....but don't interpret the "why" on your own...ask questions. That is to protect your heart from misinterpreting things. Could it be because of the breakup? Sure. It could have been stress or job related. I know when I have travelled....there is an expectation to hang out afterwards and oftentimes others are drinking, so it could be that she simply lost track of the number of drinks she had. Again...be very careful with your heart...we are here and I certainly do understand the hope....I wish you well with her. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 13:29:59 GMT
As an FA who has many times done what she is doing with my exes, it does not mean what you are hoping it does - I would do this because I missed the person, but I would still feel limited and not interested in actually having a real relationship with them, I just wanted to keep them there because I either liked them or wanted them as an option if I don't find something better (ouch)... that sounds awful but it is my truth and I'm sharing it because I want you to know how someone who has deactivated and left can actually see their ex when they still maintain a "situationship".
I left my exes because I was feeling considerable amounts of lack and pain in being in the relationship, so I was motivated to leave because of pain, which made me hell-bent that it was the wrong relationship, even if I missed the other person and entertained the thought.
I only realised just how painful it is to be on the other end of this from the last FA I dated who served me my karma. Your love deserves so much more <3
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no nuts for me.
?" and a desire to move past the troubling emotion and forget about it as fast as possible.